Early Z Market Value

[Harry Frigg]

OK... I can't take it anymore... the self destructive attitude of y'all.

This one should cause a stir. Maybe even a lot of controversy although it shouldn’t!

Amazing how someone can say – Oh… a Z could only be worth xxx dollars max. Hey, you all already know the Z is a pretty amazing vehicle or this site wouldn’t be as strong as it is, and the values are not anywhere near where they should be. Why? Because of Z-Car owners using “assumed value” rather than “real value”. “Real value” is unarguably “replacement value”. Can’t say the Z’s ever been an “undesirable”.

The last time you went to your local Nissan dealer for parts, didn’t it surprise you? Some parts have gone up by 300% over the last 10 years. Ever check with Junior’s House of Paint for a price on a great paint job? $10,000-$20,000 to dismantle and paint a car.

Again… any car should be worth the cost of replacement... If you want one. Assuming they are low, keeps them low. That only hurts you… the owner and future seller (you may loose interest and want to sell it when you turn 90). Do you really want to invest more in your car than it will ever be worth? I doubt it. So change it. Only you have the power. Think replacement value.

Didn’t Nissan get close to $38,000 for the last 240 they restored? (Just what I heard – if anyone has the facts, please advise.) Because of Nissan’s prices (originally starting at $27,000 for the restorations and going up from there) and the documentation I kept, State Farm agreed to insure mine for $35000. They’re pretty sticky about verifying replacement value too. (It breaks my heart to think my best option could be to take it out and total it)

Here’s another example that will give you a whole new respect… a 240 that sold at a Barrett-Jackson Collectors auction in 1995. Obviously two or more people (with money - maybe more than brains - but obviously worth it to one of them) really wanted this car. Check this out – a whole new outlook: http://www.barrett-jackson.com/auctionresults/common/cardetail.asp?id=159924

Serious collectors are just now starting to look at Z-Cars… the new “penny stock”? Don’t sell yourself or your cars short. There aren’t many left out there that are not rusted away beyond being possible solid restorable cars. What would it cost you to replace yours and all the work you’ve done? Show the collectors that their “new found” “penny stock” owners aren’t stupid and aren’t going to sell their cars for 50% of what they have in them.

Look at the Cobra. One day they were selling for $12000-$18000… a few months later (all of a sudden) they were $100,000 - $150,000. Worth it? Not to me, but obviously they are to many. Why? Because there are only so many of them and that’s what it (all of a sudden) took for people to part with them. Collectors wanted them. Even the kit cars are pretty outrageous. Better than a nice tight Z?

240’s, 260’s and 280’s are no longer produced… and until someone invents a time machine and can go back to 1970 and wait in line at the dealership to get a new one, your car is worth what you all decide what it’s worth. What it’s worth to you to part with it. What it will cost to replace when you realize you should have kept it. From what I see, this site has commendably captured 80-90% of the early Z Car owners on the planet. Show the power. It’s not a penny stock in quality and the builder cars are disappearing rapidly.

I’m sure mine will be long gone before there are any results from a post like this, but do yourselves a favor, and save the future and your investments. I’ve paid my dues more than once. I sold a 1967 Corvette with 14,000 original miles on it several years early for $3000. I see nice early Z cars bringing really good prices in the not too distant future.

Make any sense? Since parts have gone up 300%, you should all raise the value (in your mind) of what your car is worth by 300% whether you plan on selling it or keeping it.

Your opinions on this thread will be valued and educational.

[Victor Laury]

True, True and thank you. Most goods are marketed on a percieved value that differs greatly from the actual value. How much is a diamond worth really? Not a whole hell of a lot, but the market is flooded with propaganda to bolster the percived value through the roof.

The Actual value of your restored 240Z? Ok, lets do the math. First, We got to find a good to great condition shell. We shop around and find a 72 in great condition - $7,000. Ok, We've got a good looking, good running car, but, that's not what we bought it for. We want a restored car. This one is loaded with compromises and P.O. jerry-rigs.

We strip it down for real all-metal repair and Replated gear, Lots and Lots of NOS parts. If it's scuffed, replace it, running gear rebuilt. the best paint duplicating the Yokohama colol - Congrats, We just spent 30K more!

Then, for some sick reason we decide to sell this labor of love. (Harry, I'm still wondering if you feel alright :-), And we price it at...

17 ~ 23. Something is seriously wrong here!

[MikeW]

I suspect it's just a buyer versus seller sort of thing. Everyone around here probably thinks your car is awesome and wishes they could buy it for $20K. When your house gets appraised for tax purposes you're angry when it goes up a bit. At the same time, if you decide to sell your house, you're indignant at the low offers you get because surely it's worth a lot more.

I think we all agree that the $75K is a bit extreme. You're right about the $30-$35K the Nissan restorations went for.

Prices are all about what someone thinks something is worth. A few years ago an 1804 silver dollar sold for $4.14 million. It's just a hunk of silver but there were only 15 of them made. Interesting enough, 8 of them were minted in 1834 and the other 7 were minted in 1857. Just like the Nissan factory cars they're reproductions. Whoever paid $4.14 million paid it just so they could say they have something that not many other people have. That and to keep it long enough for someone else to want it even more.

Your car is the same sort of thing. Someone, at some point, will really want it.

[2ManyZs]

You have a point, but you are forgetting the most important thing.

Supply vs. demand.

There are still so many cheaper(10K and under) Z's on the market that the values are being kept down. Yes, parts are getting more and more expensive (some of them anyways) but there are just too many Z's still in decent (read that restorable or driveable condition) that the values are being kept at a lower value at least for the time being.

Do we really want the prices in the 30K and up category? Not for those of us who might wish to purchase a car.... Those of us who have cars that would possibly bring that kind of price if we were to sell them? Sure, who wouldn't like to get out investments in time and money back.....

Comparing the Z's to other collectible cars really can't be done in the way we would like. There were so few true low production "special" models such as the Black Pearl Edition and the Anniversary models, whereas US muscle cars had many models that were limited production that we can't really claim any one model is more collectible than another. Right now the earlier the model, the more desirable it is in a collectible sense since a good 70 is harder to find than a 73 since the production numbers were lower for the 70 than the 73. 3 years in age doesn't make as much a difference as it is the total number of cars imported for the model year in question.

In a few more years, after the "rust monster" has caused more and more Z's to be scrapped or crushed the prices will go up, perhaps more slowly than some other cars, but they are already on the rise. It wasn't all that many years ago that a 10K dollar Z car was practically unheard of.

One of the things that also hurts the Z in terms of collectors values is that it was one of the cars that hit 1 million models produced faster than nearly all other sports cars of its time.

Who knows what it will be like in 5 years, the collectors car market is kinda fickle. Only a few years ago the prices of certain models of Ferrari's went out of this world, cars were being sold for 1 million dollars that were sold for 25K two years before. Now those 1 million dollar cars are being sold for 100K and people are taking a beating.

Do we want that to happen to our investments? I think not.

Besides, the best thing about our Z's is that we can still drive them and enjoy them, I for one don't want to have a car just to look at because I can't afford to insure it or can't stand the thought of it getting dirty or hit in a parking lot.

We could be or own worst enemy in the long run if we let the same things happen to our hobbies as others have had happen to theirs. Speculators and collectors just looking to make an easy profit can drive a lot of people away from what should be an affordable car to own and an enjoyable car to drive.

I'm not saying there aren't Z's out there worth 15K and up, but they will be harder to find a buyer for them.

[Harry Frigg]

It’s honestly not just about my car. This is something that has puzzled me for a long, long time about Z Car fans.

I have friends that have put their heart, soul and a ton of cash into their Z-Cars… trying to do them right… and I am shooting myself in the foot with all of this right now because I will be trying to replace mine as soon as things turn around… if not begging to purchase mine back from it’s new owner… undoubtedly at a higher price (unless they trash it).

Another dream that keeps haunting me is a nice Z - V8 conversion… and I have seen several beautifully done cars on this site. What are they worth? I would never offer the owner less that what they have in it because…

1) That’s their minimum “actual” value… because I want one.

2) That’s what it would “actually” cost to build one… and I wouldn’t have to stress out about how it will turn out.

Yes – I could still find a builder because of how many cars were manufactured (however it’s tough even now to find the rust free version), but it will still cost more to complete it that I could buy one for, plus a whole lot of time… what’s the point here? Just that.

A Ferrari is not worth what they sell for to me, because I can’t afford one, but they are still worth what they sell for because that’s what they sell for and anyone that buys one finds comfort in that. Perhaps if I were a millionaire and could afford one it would be worth it to me as well.

I’m not saying Z’s should be out of sight… or anywhere near the value of a Ferrari or any exotic, they cost much more to build so their actual value is much higher… I’m just saying, if a car is well done – original or not – V8 conversion or not, it’s actual value is the cost of building it… to someone that wants one… because that’s what it would cost them to build one! No one to my knowledge has ever asked more. But why the “perceived” value is nothing (or a little better than half the cost)… doesn’t make sense, they have always been a desirable car… Is it that us Zeders have low self esteem? If so, we need to snap out of it.

[MikeW]

Originally posted by 2ManyZs

You have a point, but you are forgetting the most important thing.

Supply vs. demand.

[snipped]

One of the things that also hurts the Z in terms of collectors values is that it was one of the cars that hit 1 million models produced faster than nearly all other sports cars of its time.

Out of curiosity, does anyone have any idea of how many 240's are still left? I realize there's no way to answer this but even a wild guess might be nice. 1 out of 10? 20? I know quite a few members here can account for some that are not still around ... :cheeky:

[Harry Frigg]

Very valid point (supply vs demand). Short supply is what makes things worth more than their actual value.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I must stink at communication.

All I'm asking is:

If Joe has a very cool 240Z - V8 conversion he wants to sell... and I'm looking for a very cool 240Z - V8 conversion... and it's a color I like... why would it be so dumb to buy his for what he has invested in it rather than build one for what he has invested in it plus time, labor, chance, etc.? It's not going to cost less. It could even end up costing more.

[SHOTIME]

What drives older car prices is the seller. These cars are no longer made, so the ones that have them control the market. If everybody that had a restored Z wouldn't sell it for less than $25k, then they dont sell for less than $25k. The problem is there is enough people willing to part with their cars for less, thus driving down value. Why pay $25k for yours, when joe blow is selling his for $15k? If somebody wants a certain car bad, they will pay for it. I've wanted a Boss 302 for years and am shooting myself for not buying one 4 years ago for $15k. Now they're hitting $34k. By the time I buy one, I expect to pay $45k. The moral is, hold on to your cars. With the way the classic car market is, these may be with $30k or more in a short period of time.

[24OZ]

I don't know what the US figures are but I can tell you the UK figures for 2001.

Z models registered at some point during the year are:

240Z: 152

260Z: 157

In the UK a Z in "show" condition is always advertised at about 13,000 US dollars. I say advertised as you never know for sure if that was the actually price the car fetched.

The demand for Z's over here is not very high and thus its not really a sellers market.

Alan, would you agree?

[Bambikiller240]

Originally posted by SHOTIME

What drives older car prices is the seller. ........

NOPE!

Without a BUYER who is willing to pay what the SELLER asks, there is NO SALE (Duh!) thus no market.

If I have a 1oz. bag of peanuts that I offer for sale at the low, low price of $50 USD.........all I really have is a bag of peanuts and a dream, until someone with $50 USD and BIG "jones" for peanuts knocks on my door.

Until someone with the money and the desire to part with it to own your product (whatever it may be) agrees to the offer price, all the seller has is a product and a dream. Now THAT is control of the marketplace!

(there are only 3 exceptions to this rule: food, water, & pu$$y)

back to my closet.

[Harry Frigg]

However... if the peanuts cost you 50 cents a bag, would you be wise to sell them for 25 cents a bag?

There's an analogy for everything.

Just business!

[Bambikiller240]

Originally posted by Harry Frigg

However... if the peanuts cost you 50 cents a bag, would you be wise to sell them for 25 cents a bag?

No, that seller would then be wise to hold his nuts () until the market improves. A seller is ALWAYS wise to get whatever the market will bear for his nuts. But it is the buyer (or lack thereof) who makes the final decision as to the sale price of said nuts.

But this begs the question as to why a nut sales company would invest 50 cents in a bag of nuts if those exact same quality nuts are sold elsewhere in the marketplace for 25 cents. Some may do it for the love of nuts perceived as "premium nuts", but that love then MAY cost them money when the nuts are offered to the retail market. Not a good thing for the nut sales company, but great for the people who buy out the assets for pennies on the dollar when the nut company folds.

(off to the closet again, and I'm locking the door this time!)