Where to go with this rusthole

[Elliott000]

Always protected! Which brings up something else, isocyanite I see some epoxys claim to be low VOC as does this one and isocyanite and chromate free?

Is that a big deal? Chemicals are there for a reason . I know granny claims good stuff with pro form and I trust em as well as other reviews just curious.

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[Patcon]

10 minutes ago, Elliott000 said:

Always protected! Which brings up something else, isocyanite I see some epoxys claim to be low VOC as does this one and isocyanite and chromate free?

Is that a big deal? Chemicals are there for a reason . I know granny claims good stuff with pro form and I trust em as well as other reviews just curious.

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I don't now. It's a good question. Like lead in paint. The lead made it work better but was hazardous, so no more lead.

[Namerow]

2 hours ago, Elliott000 said:

Which brings up something else, isocyanite I see some epoxys claim to be low VOC as does this one and isocyanite and chromate free?

Is that a big deal? Chemicals are there for a reason

1 hour ago, Elliott000 said:

Which brings up something else, isocyanite I see some epoxys claim to be low VOC as does this one and isocyanite and chromate free?

A promotional claim that epoxy paints are low-VOC and chromate-free is disingenuous.  They may be good for the environment, but they may prove to be very bad for you.

Even the 'best' of filter-type full-coverage masks will not protect you from isocyanates.  They are not particulates and they apparently cannot be trapped or absorbed or neutralized by a filter.  To make matters worse, they are also absorbed through the skin.  For proper safety protection, you need a full suit and mask-and-pumped-air system... which will set you back about $1,000.

So why are catalyzed (aka '2K','two-pack', etc) paints apparently being used by so many hobbyists without any ill effects?  It appears to be a combination of two factors:  personal physiology, and extent of exposure.  For some people, even a one-time exposure can lead to significant long-term health problems.  For others, they may simply find that they can no longer tolerate future exposure because it's not worth the symptoms they experience.  For others still, the symptoms seem to be minimal (or at least temporary... or maybe just postponed until they get older).

You will hear and read many reports from people who say that they've used catalyzed paints for years with no ill effects.  Those would be the people who fit into category #3.  The problem is that you will not know which of the three categories you fit into until after the fact.  

This video, produced by the Ontario Ministry of Labour, may be of interest...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRstojCeyEQ

Isocyanate-based paint hardener is sold at the retail level everywhere and with minimal safety warnings.  I've experienced the chest-tightening symptoms and I will now only use the stuff in an open-air environment (i.e. outdoors, or with the garage door open).  Others will disagree and say I'm being too cautious.  I suggest you try a limited exposure to start.

[Captain Obvious]

I thought the two-part isocyanate activated paints were "urethanes" and different than "epoxy". My (admittedly shallow) understanding is that epoxy paints (while they are also two-part mixes) were different and not nearly as dangerous because they didn't contain isocyanates like the urethanes did.

I mean, you don't want to breathe a bunch of any of them but I thought the isocyanates are the real nasty shite that can cause the allergic reaction (asthma).

[Zed Head]

Actually, they can be both or more.  The starting material can be an epoxy, with the curing agent being isocyanate-based, or vice-versa with the starting material being a polyurethane (from isocyanates) and the curing reaction being from epoxies.  People can get sensitized to agents used to make either.  Really, any coating with volatiles, the solvents that you can smell, is dangerous.

There is no safe solvent or coating, before it's cured.  I met somebody that had applied epoxy coatings and adhesives for years until one day when his body decided no more.  He couldn't even get near to them after that.  He still seemed stunned telling us the story, as students visiting his kit airplane company.  Avoid the vapors, even if you've not had prior problems.  Once you get sensitized you can't be fixed, no going back.

Charcoal filters designed for organic vapors is what you want.  Or a self-contained breathing system. 

https://www.osha.gov/dts/shib/respiratory_protection_bulletin_2011.html

[grannyknot]

Well supplied air for positive pressure masks start at $50 on ebay right up to $1600  but it wouldn't be hard to buy a painters hood like the 1st pic and put together a small regulator off of a T valve like the 2nd pic that would tap into the main compressor hose.  Hook all that onto a hip belt and start spraying.  As long as you have 5-10 psi of air coming into the hood there would be no problems with paint fumes.  The main hose would continue on to a small regulator just before the paint gun.  Doable?

The end result would look sort of like this, https://www.amazon.com/Function-Supplied-Respirator-Cartridge-Included/dp/B07D8R1338/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1544933506&sr=8-3&keywords=Supplied+Air+Respirator

but made with better quality parts.

Edited December 16, 2018 by grannyknot

[Patcon]

4 minutes ago, grannyknot said:

Well supplied air for positive pressure masks start at $50 on ebay right up to $1600  but it wouldn't be hard to buy a painters hood like the 1st pic and put together a small regulator off of a T valve like the 2nd pic that would tap into the main compressor hose.  Hook all that onto a hip belt and start spraying.  As long as you have 5-10 psi of air coming into the hood there would be no problems with paint fumes.  The main hose would continue on to a small regulator just before the paint gun.  Doable?

The real issue with using the compressor for an air supply is compressor oil. The air needs to be filtered and run through an oil remover to make it suitable for breathing. The other thing is the compressor intake needs to be pulling air from a safe area. Not near any exhaust ports or pulling fumes into it. It's the filtration on these systems that make them expensive. I have a fresh air mask but usually use the respirator as it's so much easier and I don't have 2 hoses to keep out of the paint. When I do a big spray I use the fresh air mask. It is much nicer because there is no inhaling effort compared to pulling through a cartridge and the air is cool in the hood so it helps reduce sweating in the booth and dripping in your fresh paint

The ones that feed the gun and mask off one line are really nice systems although the air will only be as cool as the compressor supplying it.

[Elliott000]

I don't think I'll be going as far as a supplied air system but I have robbed a couple masks and cartridges from work. I'm in the oil industry and use I beilieve p100 cartridges. They are good enough to bump the VOC stink out of the air when do open process work. Should be fine. On another note I had a fun conversation with a few guys last night and these two got carried away with the ever oat to bare metal then epoxy vs epoxy the mud. I think im still gunna spray first then fill. Just so I KNOW the car is sealed up and if it sits for a year with no real paint I'm good to go

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[Namerow]

13 hours ago, Zed Head said:

Charcoal filters designed for organic vapors is what you want.

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree on this (important) point.  Let's look at the NIOSH Pocket Guide to Hazardous Chemicals.  The reference chemical I will use is 'isophorone diisocyanate', which is the isocyanate that appears on the label of the can of 'universal urethane hardener' (ProForm PF-598C) that I bought from an automotive paint supply specialist and have sitting in front of me.  The NIOSH handbook spells our respirator requirements according the the parts-per-million concentration of the chemical in question within the working/exposure environment.  Four ppm levels are provided:  0.05, 0.125, 0.25, and 1.0.  The expectation would be that the respirator requirement would become more demanding as the ppm increases.

For isopohorone diiisocyanate (see NIOSH handbook page 179), the respirator requirement at the lowest of the four specified ppm's is, 'Sa', meaning 'supplied-air respirator'.  There is no mention of 'Ov', which stands for organic vapor cartridge. There is no doubt that this hardener contains VOC's (it says so right on the label), but isocyanates don't fall into that category. 

The best overview I've found on safety hazards and requirements for spraying 2K/2-pack/catalyzed paints is produced by the UK government's Health & Safety Executive.  It's an easy-to-understand eight-page review of safety considerations specific to spraying automotive paints.  I've attached it here for possible interest, along with the NIOSH handbook and a Dulux tech note.  The latter includes a statement to the effect that, 'All paints are hazardous if misused or without the proper safety provisions'.  

I sure wish that making 2-pack paints safe was just a matter of buying the right filter for your face mask, but that does not appear to be the case.  That said, the painter is perfectly free to do whatever they want and they may get away without suffering any ill effects.  Or not.

Safety in Isocyanate Paint Spraying - UK Govt HSE - 2014-02.pdf

NIOSH Pocket Guide to Hazardous Chemicals - 2005-149.pdf

Dulux Tech Note - Isocyanates.pdf

[wheee!]

I just pee on a handkerchief.... worked for the soldiers in WW1!

[Zed Head]

1 hour ago, Namerow said:

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree on this (important) point. 

My mistake, thanks for the correction.  Here's a more general layman's world document.

https://polyurethane.americanchemistry.com/Products-Resources-and-Document-Library/General-Personal-Protective-Equipment-Recommendations-for-Automotive-Refinish-Coating-Applications.pdf

I spent a summer at a chemical factory and some of the old-timers there said that they used to use TDI (toluene diisocyanate) to degrease their hands.  They also used to dump unwanted drums in the river.  Times have changed.

[Elliott000]

Back to the rusthole! Im going to my PO box to grab all my goodies i ordered exciting times, on the other hand I have finally decided on my "order of operations" .... Im going to lay down the pro form epoxy primer as a sealer and then focus on body work, I feel better having the car sealed up and with plenty of research and an email to evercoat, Im confident the rage gold will do its job just fine mated to a well scuffed 80 grit month old epoxy coating. My garage is basically outside temps but enlcosed so its not drafty but not heated. I just have a shitty feeling about leaving it raw for so long and oiling the metals a no go for me. The whole ospho treratment as well becasue then I need to sand it off anyways. Epoxy for the win! I do however still not like trhe idea of spraying a raw steel rig down with waterbased products and wiping dry before paint haha. thats what ive read at least wax and grease remover?