country of origin of HLS30-00957

[Mark Maras]

 Back on March 7th. 2008, Arne started a thread titled "Datsun dealer list from 1971". He was looking for the Oregon Datsun dealers back in the day. There are several lists of Ore. dealers submitted by members. It appears there were 31 dealers in Ore. Some of them are still in business. It's possible some of them still have the old records around. Some of the ones like Scoville Datsun in Corvallis that are closed still have a historian that has archived a lot of info.

[26th-Z]

According to Carl's list, HLS30-00958 is in Connecticut; if that adds anything to this discussion.

The model identification list that ZedHead posted is probably from a later chassis manual of some sort judging by the reference to SU carburetors.  However, that list appears in the May 1970  Service Bulletin vol. 125 "Introduction of the Datsun 240Z Sports Model S30 Series".  I can't scan the thing (and we have discussed this in the archives - possibly the HLS30-UN thread) so I'm going to make some explaining: Every LHD car imported into North America was an HLS30U.  It doesn't say that on any stamped chassis ID, but that's what our North American cars are. They all came with L24 engines, F4W71A-4 gearboxes, and 3.364 final drives.  The Basic HLS30Us had engine emission control devices but it was the HLS30UV that had the evaporative emission controls.  For instance, my cars are HLS30Us without the evaporative tank but with smog pumps on the engine.  Canada export cars, HLS30UN, did not get either emission setup, thus the E41 balance tube. However, both HLS30UVs and HLS30UNs went to Canada.  In the State of Ontario, HLS30Us were HLS30UVs because they had emission control devices on the engine and evaporative emission control devices on the chassis. 

So!  There's a good chance your car could be an Ontario import which probably doesn't help because it is the same HLS30UV that was sold on the West coast of USA.

[Zed Head]

14 hours ago, Zed Head said:

We had a whole long discussion about "reVINing" cars and what makes a car, and what makes a VIN. 

Not implying anything nefarious on your part.  Just that maybe there are problems with the title or will be in the future.  It kind of looks like you're seeking information to help you get a proper title.

 

12 hours ago, 240dkw said:

I really do not think he is trying to mess with any VIN, just try to find out if there is a way to find out if it was imported into Canada or the US in 1970.

Kind of think you are off base with the whole title thing.

 

18 hours ago, M3333hp said:

My current car, HLS30-00957, came with the original engine, per the engine bay data plate and engine number on the block, but it had the US balance tube, which, along with the claim by the seller that it was an Oregon car, tells me that it was sold new in the US. But that's not enough to prove that it's a US car if someone ever wanted to import it back to the US free and clear.  

I didn't say that the OP messed with the VIN.  I just developed his stated concerns a little further.  The "whole title thing" is his.  Apparently he doesn't have any transaction paper work.  I don't know how Canada does things but he might not even have proof that the car is his.  So he can't sell to a US buyer.

[Zed Head]

1 hour ago, 26th-Z said:

The model identification list that ZedHead posted is probably from a later chassis manual of some sort judging by the reference to SU carburetors.  However, that list appears in the May 1970  Service Bulletin vol. 125 "Introduction of the Datsun 240Z Sports Model S30 Series". 

It's from the 1970 Nissan FSM that we have here on CZCC.  The General Information chapter.

Uploaded by CanTechZ.  Appropriate.

https://www.classiczcars.com/files/category/11-240z/

[M3333hp]

Zed Head,

Thanks for your comments, but there is no problem with the title for this car, nor is there any other kind of issue like that. I have a clean British Columbia title for the car, and my name is on it as the owner.

The two stamped VIN tags and the VIN etched on the firewall all match. This car is HLS30-00957, and the clean British Columbia title carries that same VIN. I’m not sure what holes you think the car or my story has, but the simple fact is that I just want to know where the car was first sold: the US or Canada?

Like a lot of other owners, I want to know the history of my car, which came to me with no useful history, unfortunately. For example, if my car is ever sold to someone in the US I imagine that person would want to know where the car came from, especially since if it was originally sold in the US they would be free of having to pay duty to re-import the car back into the US --- if a US origin could be documented on official paperwork.

Also, there is a restoration issue with the intake/emissions configuration, where Canadian cars had the ‘clean’ Euro balance tube on the intake manifold, but US cars had a different balance tube and lots of emissions equipment mounted there. I want the restoration to be accurate, and I think most Z car fans would want that too.

I’m not sure why you think I might be messing with the VIN. I have owned two 240Zs in my life, the first being HLS30-03778 which I owned from 1974 to 2003, and which the buyer sold on BaT not long ago.

I purchased my 2^nd 240Z---the car being discussed here---about 6 years ago in British Columbia and I am pumping a LOT of $$ and sweat equity into a ground-up restoration. I want to do it right, and to do that I need to know where the car came from, plain and simple. I have been around cars all my life, I own 4 performance cars right now, I am serious about them, and I want this 240Z resto to be right.

Mark Maras,

Thanks for your post. That’s exactly the kind of info I was hoping for. I’ll find that thread and read it. It might give me a good lead to follow.

Thanks for the comments everyone.

[Zed Head]

16 minutes ago, M3333hp said:

I’m not sure why you think I might be messing with the VIN.

These are really strange times.  I think that there is so much information out there that people don't really read any more.  I think that we all just scan and pick up a few words and respond to those.

I said that you did not appear to have proper paperwork.  I did not say that you were messing with the VIN.  As I also explained to 240dkw.  And that, therefore, it might not even be a properly titled car.  Because you did not supply all of the facts above in your first post.  That's all there is to it.  You told a little story and left a whole bunch of information out.  The car has all of the ID tags removed in your picture.  You said you might have trouble selling it to a US buyer.  You didn't mention that you had proper title.  You said that you had no documentation to back up what the seller told you.

It looked like somebody who bought a car with no title.  That's what the words on the page showed, to me.  Good luck. 

22 hours ago, M3333hp said:

I bought this car some years ago in British Columbia, Canada, and am in the middle of a restoration from the shell - up, with a full repaint in the original 918 orange.

I was told by the seller that it was originally an Oregon car, but there is no documentation of that. I have tried to go through the Oregon DMV but they require the name of the person that it was registered to way back when, and I do not have that info. They cannot search on the VIN, since there was no computerized database of car registrations back in the 1970s.

 

[Zed Head]

And, just to reiterate, and I really think it would help your cause - what is the seller's name?  If he or she was a "Z person" six years ago somebody out here might know them.

And another clarification - did a Canada title come with the car when you bought the car?  Or did you get no title and have to file paperwork to get a Canada title?  

Here are the essential elements of your effort -  240Z is, maybe, in Oregon...240Z ends up in British Columbia somehow.  Unclear if it had a Canada title...240Z is sold to new owner with little to no documentation...Canada title is obtained.

Sorry.  I browse around the internet more for the words and information.  It's good mental exercise.

[wal280z]

23 hours ago, M3333hp said:

Calling Carl Beck...anyone ---help!

@M3333hp  adding the '@' symbol prior to a user name on the forum will tag them and send an email to them.

@Carl Beck

@Zed Head Congratulations on steering this topic off topic. The OP has not indicated in any way of VIN tampering or otherwise obtaining a title under false pretenses. YOU have brought that up.

The OP was requesting information on obtaining information on where the car was originally sold. In Canada, or the US. That is what I read from his original post.

Does the Oregon DMV show the prior owner on it's title?? In Virginia, it doesn't. So, if he bought it as he stated, some years ago, unless he is OCD and keeps good records and files everything, he may not have the seller's info that he bought it from now. Heck, I bought my daily driver in July, obtained a title by legal means, and can't tell you the name of the person I bought it from. Sheesh.

It's too bad that even 'confused' reactions that get reputation points.

[Zed Head]

I bought my car about eight years ago and I remember the name of the guy that sold it to me.  

No damage has been done and the situation is much more clear now.  The odds have been tilted in the OP's favor by my questions and his answers.  I did bring up VIN altering.  Because it does happen.  I did make a mistake though, the guy I was thinking of is, apparently, from Nevada, not Oregon.

Here's some interesting reading about how other people think and how you can end up with a car that's not what you think it is.  These things do happen.  Started at page 4 where the heat is but the whole thread is worth reading.

 

[Mark Maras]

Another possible lead? The Nissan headquarters was in Beaverton, Oregon back in the early seventies.

[Carl Beck]

@M3333hp - Hi Peter. Are you,  or were you actually living in Nanoose Bay, on Vancouver Island, BC?  If so you are the first person I had listed as owing #957.

 

I doubt that you will be able to back-track the ownership of #957 clear to the original Sell Dealer for several reasons. As mentioned many States in the US did not have their Title and Registration systems fully on computers, and many that did, did not convert all that data to the latest software every time they changed Computer O/S and Application software - so as to maintain an ability to do a computer search back that far. Nonetheless - Many printed the information out - and converted that to Microfilm. Which many still have.

 

Now however, due to the changes in US Privacy Laws - only Law Enforcement and/or Lawyers have access to the DMV records in most States. 

 

Still you wouldn’t have to go back to 1970. All you have to find, is any owner of that car that titled and registered it in the States. So lets say you owned the car for 3 years now - and the previous owner held it for 20 years after buying it from Oregon. 2018 minus 23 years is 1995. I’d bet that by 1980 Oregon DMV was completely automated and records back to that time should still be searchable… Might cost a few dollars for them to do the search..

 

So if you could get a Lawyer in Oregon - or a Private Investigator in Oregon to do a DMV VIN search - who knows HLS30 00957 might show up as having been registered there.

[240dkw]

On 11/4/2018 at 10:37 AM, M3333hp said:

Also, there is a restoration issue with the intake/emissions configuration, where Canadian cars had the ‘clean’ Euro balance tube on the intake manifold, but US cars had a different balance tube and lots of emissions equipment mounted there. I want the restoration to be accurate, and I think most Z car fans would want that too.

 

M333hp: Good luck with finding information as to where the car first landed. I would think that if you got the original engine with the car there are enough parts on it to say whether or no it is a HLS30UV or an HLS30UN. To me that would be enough of a answer as to looking south of the border or here for paper work. As well as which way to restore it.

Edited November 5, 2018 by 240dkw