The definitive Z book

[HS30-H]

32 minutes ago, SpeedRoo said:

I don't know Carl personally but if he sits at a chair that has armrests and writes about Z cars then yes that would make him an "armchair expert".

So what's really behind the "armchair experts" comment then? To whom are you referring? You've pitched up on a 'net based forum, asking questions. Are you expecting to find the Z-world equivalent of Griffith Borgeson to be at your beck and call?

By definition, we are all "armchair experts" here, all scholars on the same voyage of discovery. I suggest you at least wipe your feet before you cross the threshold.  

[26th-Z]

I would agree with Alan that there isn't one definitive book.  Not in English.  I recommend starting with Brian Longs; "Datsun Z, from Fairlady to 280", 1998.  There are passages that could use updating but it is the best "starter" volume.  Brian wrote what I call follow-up titles which I have not read allowing that I don't know if or how he addressed outdated passages in his first volume.  I would invest in the original printing.  Hitoshi Eumura's; "Datsun 240Z Engineering Development" is another must read.  It is poorly edited but there is good information and presents a picture of design development that you won't find anywhere else (in English).  It surpasses the common internet conversation containing pretty pictures of stylized design studies by discussing the mechanical dynamics of the chassis and how the design was influenced by performance criteria.  "Mr. K" is going to impress the reader with what all the Mr. K hype is about.  Make sure you read "Z-Car, Revival of a Legend"; Yutaka Katayama and Seiichi Takarabe along with "Mr. K'.  Both of those books need to be read together.  Pete Evanow wrote; "Z, 35 Years of Nassan'sSports Cars" which is pretty good from the American corporate perspective of marketing a successful Japanese import in North America, however, it is more of a cocktail table book.

Neko Publishing Co. Ltd, published "Fairlady Vol. 1 and Vol. 2" from1985 are very good if you can find copies.  They are considered rare books now.  Another good Japanese volume is "Fairlady Z File"; by Studio TAC Creative.  Another one of my favorite Japanese volumes, this one a Mook, is Motor Magazines; "All About Fairlady Z", 2005.

Agreed, the internet is full of "armchair experts".  I have found that few of them actually read.  With all encouragement, I wish you the best in your scholarly endeavor.  There has been a lot written about the Z.  By many different perspectives with various agendas.  Best of luck and "Enjoy the Ride".

Edited December 9, 2018 by 26th-Z

[SpeedRoo]

1 hour ago, HS30-H said:

So what's really behind the "armchair experts" comment then? To whom are you referring? You've pitched up on a 'net based forum, asking questions. Are you expecting to find the Z-world equivalent of Griffith Borgeson to be at your beck and call?

By definition, we are all "armchair experts" here, all scholars on the same voyage of discovery. I suggest you at least wipe your feet before you cross the threshold.  

I would consider the people with feet on the ground who were involved at the time as experts. In the case of the Z that would be Uemura, Katayama, Matsuo etc. Hence my question on definitive books. Writers like Long who have taken the time to travel in Japan and research the subject are also good references, they have also taken the time to do the work and write it down. If history is not recorded it is soon forgotten. Others like myself who have discovered the cars have them to thank for their efforts. I have no idea who Griffith Borgeson is, were they involved with the Z development as well?

If you find the term "armchair expert" derogatory then my apologies. I have no way of knowing your qualifications or background other than what I have read on Z forums. Like yourself there are many people with opinions on the cars, but how do you know who really knows what is true or not. I find it simple to do lots of research and ask questions, which is what I am trying to do here. The same way I contacted you privately through the message board and asked questions. I had assumed you were knowledgeable about the race cars and Z432R and asked you some questions based on what I had researched. You chose not to answer as you didn't know me and wanted to know who or what I was doing. I explained that to you and then nothing. I contacted kats in Japan and he has been very helpful, he also mentioned you were very busy but the person to ask. I wrote to you to say I understood you were busy and I would continue my research in Japan. Unfortunately you did not even have the courtesy to respond to that either. Obviously you have quite a bit of background on the cars but don't wish to share it, that is your prerogative.

I have ordered the Long book on the subject and will look up the other ones 26th-Z has suggested. If I have upset any others with my questions and earnestness my apologies, that was not my intention. Look forward to find out more history and background to these fascinating cars.

 

[SpeedRoo]

Got the Long book and reading it diligently. Sadly not a lot on the Z432-R racing other than general info readily available on the net. Waiting on the Uemura book, should be here tomorrow. Will be interesting to read about the test cars that came to the USA/Canada. By some accounts a Z432-R came over here and was crashed and written off, wonder if there are any details in Uemura's tome. Posted a question on the racing Japanese Z cars in the race section of the forum but it seems to have stumped the "armchair experts" amongst us so far!

Roo

[HS30-H]

On 12/10/2018 at 12:17 AM, SpeedRoo said:

I find it simple to do lots of research and ask questions, which is what I am trying to do here. The same way I contacted you privately through the message board and asked questions. I had assumed you were knowledgeable about the race cars and Z432R and asked you some questions based on what I had researched. You chose not to answer as you didn't know me and wanted to know who or what I was doing. I explained that to you and then nothing. I contacted kats in Japan and he has been very helpful, he also mentioned you were very busy but the person to ask. I wrote to you to say I understood you were busy and I would continue my research in Japan. Unfortunately you did not even have the courtesy to respond to that either. Obviously you have quite a bit of background on the cars but don't wish to share it, that is your prerogative.

Except that's not really what happened, is it?

You PM me totally out of the blue with a list of chassis numbers and many other associated questions (a full and proper answer would almost be a book in itself) and I replied that I wanted to know a bit more about you - and what was behind it all - before entering into a conversation with you about it. Some of what you asked about is sensitive information (especially the questions regarding ownership of certain cars in Japan) and I have learned to be cautious about sharing stuff like that with people who are - effectively - strangers. Before I could give you another answer you sent me a snarky PM and then start talking about "armchair experts" on the forum?

You addressed me by my first name, but you still insist on calling yourself 'Roo'? You claim to be an "Auto Historian" who has "written a number of books and magazine articles", and yet you apparently haven't heard of the late, great Griffith Borgeson? Well forgive me if my spidey senses tingle a little and I don't feel convinced about you just yet...

 

7 hours ago, SpeedRoo said:

Posted a question on the racing Japanese Z cars in the race section of the forum but it seems to have stumped the "armchair experts" amongst us so far!

Q.E.D.

Haven't, let alone haven't yet, isn't the same as cannot.

[240260280]

7 hours ago, SpeedRoo said:

Got the Long book and reading it diligently. Sadly not a lot on the Z432-R racing other than general info readily available on the net. Waiting on the Uemura book, should be here tomorrow. Will be interesting to read about the test cars that came to the USA/Canada. By some accounts a Z432-R came over here and was crashed and written off, wonder if there are any details in Uemura's tome. Posted a question on the racing Japanese Z cars in the race section of the forum but it seems to have stumped the "armchair experts" amongst us so far!

Roo

 

North American Testing:

http://www.240260280.com/History/Testing/Testing NA/index.html

 

Videos thanks to @kats !!!!!

[grannyknot]

48 minutes ago, 240260280 said:

Videos thanks to @kats !!!!!

I've heard about those films but never had a chance to see them, absolute treat!

[26th-Z]

"By some accounts a Z432-R came over here and was crashed and written off".  I would like to follow a reference to those "accounts".  I haven't heard of that one.  Reference?

[SpeedRoo]

2 hours ago, 26th-Z said:

"By some accounts a Z432-R came over here and was crashed and written off".  I would like to follow a reference to those "accounts".  I haven't heard of that one.  Reference?

G'day 26th, happy to share what I've found. Your esteemed forum member Kats posted about this many moons ago, June 8th 2007. Must say I was surprised the AEIC (Armchair Expert In Chief) never commented on this...maybe Griffith Borgeson was one of the test drivers.

To quote:

Mr.Miyazaki once told me when he was a chief of test crew of Europe 240Z,the team brought a 240Z with very very hard suspension to make good lap time at turn pike.He said 240Z was supposed to be enter Montecarlo rally before its debut in Europe,for PR.First he felt it was too much hard,but German Nissan said it was good.

PS : amendment, Mr.Miyazaki told me two Z432s were sent to the U.S. Not just S20 engine.

The one was a Z432 and the other was a Z432R. He was told the Z432R was crashed.

If someone find Z432 and Z432R's wreck, please report here!!

Post 66 in this thread: 

 

[26th-Z]

I found the reference and it surprised me.  I have paid pretty close attention to the stories about the North American testing and the cars imported for the North American introduction / car shows.  I have not heard anything about a PS30 or a PS30SB brought to North America.  My first question would be why?  Neither of the cars were ever intended for export to my understanding.  Let alone crashing one.  I have seen an S20 engined LHD prototype crashed in Japan for crash testing purposes, but nothing about a production example.  I'm also aware of what was taken to Europe for racing-rally purposes, but again, not a PS30SB.

[SpeedRoo]

Surprised me as well, just wondering what the story was behind it all. Is there any reference in the Uemura book? He had feet on the ground at the time so probably has the most knowledge. Slowly going back through the archives here researching the cars, amazing what can be found, thanks everyone for the contributions over the years.

Roo

P.S. Love the Orange R

 

[HS30-H]

10 minutes ago, 26th-Z said:

I have not heard anything about a PS30 or a PS30SB brought to North America.  My first question would be why?  Neither of the cars were ever intended for export to my understanding.  Let alone crashing one.  I have seen an S20 engined LHD prototype crashed in Japan for crash testing purposes, but nothing about a production example.  I'm also aware of what was taken to Europe for racing-rally purposes, but again, not a PS30SB.

Indeed. What would have been the point for the factory engineers to bring an S20-engined car to a territory where there were no intention to sell and/or race it.

I put it down to either a misunderstanding or mis-remembering something else. A lone S20 (race) engine cutaway was shown at some European car shows in the late 1960s as a general promotional tool, but no S20-equipped cars.

North America? Closest proximity I could ever get was somewhat more southerly...

In December 1970, SCCN works team drivers Haruhito Yanagida and Masami Kuwashima took a race-prepped 432-R over to Brazil to compete in two rounds of the 'Copa Brasil de Automobilisimo Internacional' race series at the Interlagos track in São Paulo:

 

I've talked to them both about it, and it was an interesting story.