I was one of the first people to use the 123 ignition on a Z and I have been running this setup since 2015.  I concur that the setup and install instructions are lacking and I too experienced an advanced timing situation after the initial "LED Install" procedure but unfortunately did not realize this for quite some time so I was running more advanced that I originally thought.  Fortunately nothing catastrophic happened to my engine and I was able to correct this by checking the initial settings with a timing light.  Although the 123 people indicated in their emails to the OP that timing should always be checked with a light, I have not seen that written in any of their instructions although it is possible that I might have missed it.

One other issue that I have had with the 123 ignition is that periodically my car will refuse to start or it does start but does not run correctly (misfires) and the only thing that solves the issue is to replace the rotor.  I was never able to completely figure out the cause of this or why the rotor just seemed to randomly "go bad" until I read through this thread and subsequently did some additional research.

As it turns out, I also run an MSD with my ignition and when I was first considering the 123 distributor, I found a warning on their website that said not to use the 123 system with an MSD ignition.  I did not understand the engineering reasoning behind this so I contacted the company directly to find out a little more.  Their engineers told me that they already had customers using their product with an MSD with no issues being reported and so they really didn't seem to know why that warning was there.  They basically told me that it should work without issues.

Well fast forward to today and after a little more research I found the root cause of the problem.  I happened to stumble on a Triumph TR site where the OP had a similar problem on a 123 ignition although in this case the rotor was actually burned.  This led me to another thread on a forum called Pelican Parts and they apparently specialize in parts for older European cars.  Well as it turns out, the engineers at 123 chose a readily available, off the shelf distributor where they could house their electronics and just change the drive mechanism to work with numerous different cars.  So the cap and rotor, and I suspect even the dizzy body itself was very widely used in VW's, BMW's, Volvo's, etc of the late 60's going through the early 80's.  Well during this time, the EU apparently was focused on RFI suppression in newer cars and mandated that auto electronics include RFI suppression hardware.  I do not know exactly when this was mandated but I believe it was sometime in the 70's.  Well believe it or not this mandate resulted in the inclusion of a resistor in the distributor rotor that sits between the center contact and the end contact.  What I learned from the Pelican Parts forum (where a lot of these guys use this same cap and rotor setup as the 123 ignition as that's what the car originally came with) but they have also upgraded to MSD.  Unfortunately these rotors with the internal resistors were designed and used at a time when ignition systems were not as powerful as today's systems, including MSD, and so the higher output power of the MSD essentially burns out the resistors over time.  

I must admit that I thought this seemed rather absurd as I had never heard of such a thing, but I happened to have a number of rotors that had "gone bad" so I decided to do my own checking.  Well sure enough when I checked continuity between the center and end conductors, it was a total open!  I really couldn't believe what I was seeing so I used a Dremel to cut away at the epoxy and sure enough buried under the epoxy and between the 2 conductors was a burned out resistor.  The solution that I also found on the Pelican Parts forum was the Dremel out the epoxy and resistor and simply solder in a 12 gauge piece of wire to replace the resistor, and then simply use JB weld or some other suitable epoxy to seal it back up.  You can find more info about this here:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/596559-msd-rotor-modification-detail.html

Ironically, 123 Ignition now also sells a modified rotor that replaces the resistor with a wire:

https://123ignitionusa.com/oem-rotor-modified-no-resistor-for-all-4-and-6-cyl-123-applications/

$45 for a rotor seemed a little excessive to me so I purchased a couple of Bosch rotors (p/n 04008) and did the mod myself.  A little tedious but definitely better than paying $45.

So after 4+ years of dealing with this random problem I believe it is finally solved.  I will also say that despite some of the startup issues that I and others have had with the 123 system, I am very satisfied with the end result and would not hesitate to use this again.  Fortunately my experience with the company and the product was a little more positive than the OP.  I hope this helps others that may have experienced the same issue and that I've saved you from pulling your hair out as well.

Mike.

 

WOW MIKE!  I AM THOROUGHLY IMPRESSED!  GREAT WORK AND GREAT POST!!! 

 

Btw I still suffer eye damage from looking at your engine in the Memphis sun!!!

Thanks Blue for the compliments!!  My engine bay is actually toned down a little now from the way it was in Memphis.  I've replaced my valve cover with one that is powder coated black, moved the breather to the back of the cover, and routed my wires around the front of the cover rather than over it.  You see more of the engine that way and given that its black its easier on the eyes!!  Haha!

Here's an update picture.

 

 

38 minutes ago, Mike W said:

Thanks Blue for the compliments!!  My engine bay is actually toned down a little now from the way it was in Memphis.  I've replaced my valve cover with one that is powder coated black, moved the breather to the back of the cover, and routed my wires around the front of the cover rather than over it.  You see more of the engine that way and given that its black its easier on the eyes!!  Haha!

Here's an update picture.

 

 

Still beautiful though!!!!

Clean &  Mean

I like the new touches, black valve cover is sharp.

Great post!! Thanks for sharing - I will remember this if mine ever fails in action. Also I found the same parts on eBay at a fraction of what 123 have been charging.

I have to say; with my recent antics with mix / carbs / torque holes I’ve grown to like my 123 again. Being able to tune a couple of degrees more on specific parts of the power band and experimenting with the TUNE function has been enlightening, I wish they would offer some form of data logging though!

And you are right - NOWHERE on my instructions did it say to check with a timing light (although I did).

And still doesn’t ...

http://123ignition.nl/files/manuals/123manual_TUNEPLUS.pdf

3 hours ago, AK260 said:

Great post!! Thanks for sharing - I will remember this if mine ever fails in action. Also I found the same parts on eBay at a fraction of what 123 have been charging.

I have to say; with my recent antics with mix / carbs / torque holes I’ve grown to like my 123 again. Being able to tune a couple of degrees more on specific parts of the power band and experimenting with the TUNE function has been enlightening, I wish they would offer some form of data logging though!

And you are right - NOWHERE on my instructions did it say to check with a timing light (although I did).

And still doesn’t ...

http://123ignition.nl/files/manuals/123manual_TUNEPLUS.pdf

You found what parts?  

Cap and rotor

I don't know but for me there is a rule.

Playing with a distributor =timing light.

It's like changing a MC=Bleed the brakes.

Yes, install dizzy=use timing light.  No question. 
Although a year old thread, I do want to chime in here.
Since about the time this thread began, I have been running the (Bluetooth) 123ignition /Tune+ On a 260Z block / heads with twin SUs and SM needles. I also run a hotter coil (oil damped) Bosch Red is also ok. And I’ve bypassed my ballast resistor and rotor resistor myself.  Why have extra resistance in your circuits, unless you still use AM radio?  Heh, heh.  
No problems with the engine / timing  in over a year of spirited driving. I love to tune it as I choose each day, depending on how I plan to be driving. I have several Curves, like 10 including the ‘Default.123’.  I use an ipad and also my iphone. You can tune ‘one the fly’ (just +/- advance, you can’t change or save the curve-yet...).  SO City it’s start & stop, so use a good idle maybe 10-12d BTDC at 750rpm -not my default map which as lower idle advance. Cruising the freeway or touring (I want better milage), twisty mountain canyons (lots of advance at high rpm).  It’s cool to have variable Timing / vacuum advance curves, without playing with advance weights, or adjusting the position of the dizzy manually to change static advance.

Some comments:

The setup procedure with the LED light is only good for getting the engine running with the new dizzy. Then run the 123ign centrifugal map with 0 degrees up to 1500rpm in the app and set the engine (with the timing light) to match.  I read somewhere that using the LED procedure can actually set 5d TDC static to ‘get the engine started’ easily.  I didn’t see this myself, but it brings up the next point.  Personally I wouldn’t run the default map and LED timing except to test, and certainly not on the road and under load.

Do NOT set up static timing, it screws everything up, and you would have to ADD that to all the values 123ign “sees” in real time and when you add vacuum retard “maps” (which *will* kick in at 1500rpm by default) it gets way too confusing.  That is IF you run a vacuum advance line / dizzy (I do)- most with triple DCOEs won’t (or can’t as there isn’t a common plenum).   You confuse the123ign and more importantly yourself as to the advance you are running.

I did write to Ed Madak, before install and he was very helpful  The instructions are incomplete and they expect you have some knowledge. He said:

“Hi Richard

Setting the app to 0 and the number one cylinder to TDC is preferred as it will show exactly what you have set your timing to.

Always confirm using a timing light and synchronize the app with the motor.

Hope this helps“

It did help.  So you don’t think I’m a fanboy, here are some issues I have experienced and tried to solve:

1. The install instructions are terrible. Read the above and take note, hard lessons learned, you must confirm you have TDC marked correctly on your harmonic balancer.  Then use a good timing light, one with dialback if you can.  I even made an ‘newbie’s guide’ (ymmv) of my 123ign install & posted it on YouTube: 

2. These engines love advance, but personally I don’t exceed 35d advance even at 8000rpm (it’s never driven as a race-car).  I also usually RPM limit at 7500, 123ign does random spark cut to keep to that limit.  My tach is very accurate and the function works as advertised. I have a ‘hotter cam grind’ and don’t want to bend valves or blow a head gasket.

2. Problems I have had are mostly with the app:  

i) Sometimes it doesn’t load any curve, and seems to run whatever you save as Default.123 - so make that a gentle map with good idle but one where you will notice a big difference under acceleration (and can’t trash your engine).  Butt dyno to the rescue.

ii) The ‘map curve’ which does ignition adv/retard from vacuum is difficult to understand at first, I wish it had an option to change it to Hg (mercury), rather than Abs pressure (kP) which the dizzy uses.  Yes, you can look up conversion. My default is very gentle, but I have more aggressive maps to run:

Default MAP

No. Abs Pressure (kP).  Degrees Crank
1   0  0

2   29  0

3  30  5

4  45  7

5  85  0

6  100 0

7  200 0

Note: If the Map you’re reading is shown in Degrees camshaft, you need to convert to crank by using a x2 factor. That’s buried in the crap instructions.  Crank rotates twice for every single cam rotation. Look at the gear sizes on the timing chain! So you multiply cam x2 to get crank degrees.

ii)  You can ‘immobilize’ your car in the app, which is a feature I like (I used to run a manual kill switch). It used to work correctly, but now when I go back to settings after disconnecting, the app looks like it’s ready to go.  But it isn’t, the engine will die right away.  You have to enable, then disable the function.  On my New iphone anyway.  Not ideal.

Iii)  The GPS speedo is rubbish compared to other iPhone GPS apps and Speedos on the market.  Sometimes it says I’m doing 153 mph (yeah, right) sometimes 25mph and I’m doing a steady 65mph on the freeway. Mostly.  But it’s okay as a check, my analog speedo isn’t accurate at some speeds (very low and above 60mph).  So it can help ‘fill in the gaps’.

iv)  As discussed, the cap and rotor aren’t great, and way too expensive.  Replace the cap and rotor with a Bosch one.  The ‘71 280SL Mercedes and the ‘65 Porsche 911 2.0L base used the same cap, but that’s from memory.  Buy products made in Europe, so Germany or Italy.  Go to a Porsche site or Imports parts supply. 
Dizzy cap for 123ignition 123 Tune+
Bosch 1 235 522 060  or Beru VK102

Part Number for the rotor is:
  Bosch 1 234 332 024 or 1234 332 088 which supersedes the 024
WVE 4R1209

For example, a good quality rotor (Italian made) is also available here for $25 shipped: https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F333529359496

I bought a Bosch cap NOS (in original box) on eBay for around $16, in fact I got two- and was happy.  If I wasn’t (cracked or used) I would have sent it back for a refund under eBay/PayPal policy.

Finally, the rotor should not come with a resistor, I’ve modified mine by soldering in a piece of ‘house wiring’ gauge  copper wire  No problems at all, but you may need to file the top of the wire flatter to have good clearance. Good practice would be to encase the copper wire run in epoxy, so you don’t get unwanted spark jumps. Especially if you run MSD 6AL and a hotter coil.

v) No data logging.  A huge disappointment, or has to track the data, why not be able to save a ‘pull’ to look back at what the dizzy (and the car) did.  Fix this!

That’s it.  My experience has been quite good.  These are machines.  Cars and engines go wrong.  You all know that.  There’s probably more I could say, but I hadn’t intended to write a book when I started.  If you’re reading this far, you have the benefit of what I’ve discovered.   I like the 123i Tune+ dizzy and plan to use another one soon- maybe just the USB one as it could have a single standard tune.  This is on a built stroker 3.xL with triple webber DCOEs, hot cam, etc.  I’m not scared that if set up correctly, it won’t detonate your engine.  It should default to a map that ‘still makes sense’ if it goes out. BTW the holes 4&5 on the L6 are more prone to failure than the others.  Don’t ask me how I know...

Edited March 5, 20205 yr by Firepower
Spelling. Added GPS speedometer inaccuracy.

Bravo on the install video. ? Great Job!

Just a follow up regarding this particular 123ignition distributor.

Upon receipt of the unit, I installed it in my 1969 MGC where it has been working flawlessly since. 

New price on rotor after review. Plus free shipping in Continental USA. Thanks for the support from the Classiczcars.

Hope this helps

Ed

Edited March 5, 20205 yr by 123ignitionusa