Hey, everyone

I'll try to make this as short as possible, but there is a lot that has gone on in the past couple of days between me and various people of 123ignition so I will try my best. 

I will post copies of a pdf file containing the emails between the various employees of this company. I am pointing out now that I have intermediate experience in mechanics and engine building but there is a lot for me to learn still. This isn't really much of discussion on the fundamentals of timing, installation, etc. This is more so a post regarding quality of a product and quality of customer service. I ultimately don't want people to make the same mistake I made. I understand this can be a difficult situation for both parties and I will get more into that later.

Okay, moving forward. I recently installed a 260z 123ignition programmable bluetooth distributor. With this unit I purchased the coil of their recommendation, along with plugs and spark plug wires. This was to be installed two weeks before my vacation so I could have time to fine tune it and get ready for a big drive ahead. I made a post a week or so ago that I was hearing noises under the hood which was confirmed to be the water pump. I documented healthy compression and no damage to rod bearings at that time. The 123ignition is a pretty straight forward install, though they do not state that you need a timing light for this to be installed properly. You do. I have one and used one but the instructions state you rotate the distributor according to the direction your rotor within the cap rotates and stop once a light illuminates within the distributor. There is a small window you'd get this correct without a timing light. Other customers had this problem.

After installation is complete the car starts up no problem once timing is set. At this point I started having trouble with the app and that it had trouble reading the stock curve information from the app from time to time. This is not much of a problem as information is stored internally within the distributor. I take the car for a drive. Mapped out it was only an 8 minute drive. Within that small time frame, my cruising speed was cut prematurely by the smell of smoke. As I pulled over the engine was struggling to run. The app at this point was telling me there was no vacuum advance. Luckily I wasn't far from home and made it back.

Then my communication with the company begins. I will not post that here as it will be posted in a pdf link for everyone to read below. These emails mostly are asking information about their design of their product so I can get a better understanding of what may have happened. Did it lose vacuum? I just measured healthy compression a week ago, why would shortly after my drive a piston burn up? Issues within the distributor? Maybe this piston was on it's way out already? Both possible and I agreed that there were too many variables to prove. You can see in the emails at one point I tried to diffuse the situation before tensions got high and just stated I would like a refund. The conversation was continued by the director of this company, Ron, and that ultimately I was just trying to scam him. Fast forward and Ron has lost all contact with me. I was to deal with the person I bought it from. Fair enough. I spoke with Ed. Now Ed is a pretty nice guy and even after all this I do believe he is. Ed confirms that there is too many variables and again, I agree, hesitantly. I was told to package it and send it back for a refund in which I, of course, agreed. Upon getting ready for packaging and removing a bracket you must install to mount the distributor I heard something rattling in the inside. I remove the cap to find the coil contact had broken off completely. In that process caused marring inside of the cap meaning it bounced around a bit before falling to the bottom. Whether that can cause problems with misfires? You be the judge of that. It leads me to my point of the multiple times it lost advance in a 20 minute window. Roughly the combined time of adjustments at idle and the first and final test run. How can I be confident that the internals of this distributor can do it's intended purpose whenever the distributor cap can only do it's purpose for 8 minutes? I sent this photo to Ed and Ed did not respond. I called after almost a full business day in which Ed admitted that he did see the photo. Ed reassured me that what happened is normal to happen to a distributor. 

We can also note from the emails that after asking 3 times how these distributors work, my suspicions were confirmed that if this product was to fail electronically that it loses all advance. Not a terribly huge problem but this is where I'm starting to have more faith in old 40+ year distributors over a shiny new one. 

Ending this I feel sorry for Ed. If I were in his shoes I wouldn't know what to do either. You can only do so much in this situation, I guess. I certainly don't know if I would have went with his route in saying "well, I normally charge a restocking fee but I'm waiving that for you." I understand we install aftermarket parts at our own risks. Seeing as I am, I don't know, the 1% I can see how it can be chalked up to user error. After the facts I do disagree and I do think the product is at fault. Do I expect anyone to help replace my engine? No. It'd be nice to cover some cost of it but I'd prefer to replace my engine because of my own stupidity and mistakes. Not someone else's. 

This may rub some people the wrong way. I'm sure some with a good experience with Ed will try to blame me. I don't care honestly. I can't gain anything from this at this point. I just want to share my story and hopefully prevent anyone from doing the same.

If you spent the time to read this, thank you. 

The pdf is only edited to remove all personal information of both parties and to condense. There is a lot of quotes and signatures in the original. It's still a nightmare but only 4 pages and will revise later. Sorry about the watermarks.

123.pdf

Edited May 23, 20195 yr by Rill Cosby

WOW MIKE!  I AM THOROUGHLY IMPRESSED!  GREAT WORK AND GREAT POST!!! 

 

Btw I still suffer eye damage from looking at your engine in the Memphis sun!!!

Thanks Blue for the compliments!!  My engine bay is actually toned down a little now from the way it was in Memphis.  I've replaced my valve cover with one that is powder coated black, moved the breather to the back of the cover, and routed my wires around the front of the cover rather than over it.  You see more of the engine that way and given that its black its easier on the eyes!!  Haha!

Here's an update picture.

 

 

38 minutes ago, Mike W said:

Thanks Blue for the compliments!!  My engine bay is actually toned down a little now from the way it was in Memphis.  I've replaced my valve cover with one that is powder coated black, moved the breather to the back of the cover, and routed my wires around the front of the cover rather than over it.  You see more of the engine that way and given that its black its easier on the eyes!!  Haha!

Here's an update picture.

 

 

Still beautiful though!!!!

Clean &  Mean

I like the new touches, black valve cover is sharp.

Great post!! Thanks for sharing - I will remember this if mine ever fails in action. Also I found the same parts on eBay at a fraction of what 123 have been charging.

I have to say; with my recent antics with mix / carbs / torque holes I’ve grown to like my 123 again. Being able to tune a couple of degrees more on specific parts of the power band and experimenting with the TUNE function has been enlightening, I wish they would offer some form of data logging though!

And you are right - NOWHERE on my instructions did it say to check with a timing light (although I did).

And still doesn’t ...

http://123ignition.nl/files/manuals/123manual_TUNEPLUS.pdf

3 hours ago, AK260 said:

Great post!! Thanks for sharing - I will remember this if mine ever fails in action. Also I found the same parts on eBay at a fraction of what 123 have been charging.

I have to say; with my recent antics with mix / carbs / torque holes I’ve grown to like my 123 again. Being able to tune a couple of degrees more on specific parts of the power band and experimenting with the TUNE function has been enlightening, I wish they would offer some form of data logging though!

And you are right - NOWHERE on my instructions did it say to check with a timing light (although I did).

And still doesn’t ...

http://123ignition.nl/files/manuals/123manual_TUNEPLUS.pdf

You found what parts?  

Cap and rotor

I don't know but for me there is a rule.

Playing with a distributor =timing light.

It's like changing a MC=Bleed the brakes.

Yes, install dizzy=use timing light.  No question. 
Although a year old thread, I do want to chime in here.
Since about the time this thread began, I have been running the (Bluetooth) 123ignition /Tune+ On a 260Z block / heads with twin SUs and SM needles. I also run a hotter coil (oil damped) Bosch Red is also ok. And I’ve bypassed my ballast resistor and rotor resistor myself.  Why have extra resistance in your circuits, unless you still use AM radio?  Heh, heh.  
No problems with the engine / timing  in over a year of spirited driving. I love to tune it as I choose each day, depending on how I plan to be driving. I have several Curves, like 10 including the ‘Default.123’.  I use an ipad and also my iphone. You can tune ‘one the fly’ (just +/- advance, you can’t change or save the curve-yet...).  SO City it’s start & stop, so use a good idle maybe 10-12d BTDC at 750rpm -not my default map which as lower idle advance. Cruising the freeway or touring (I want better milage), twisty mountain canyons (lots of advance at high rpm).  It’s cool to have variable Timing / vacuum advance curves, without playing with advance weights, or adjusting the position of the dizzy manually to change static advance.

Some comments:

The setup procedure with the LED light is only good for getting the engine running with the new dizzy. Then run the 123ign centrifugal map with 0 degrees up to 1500rpm in the app and set the engine (with the timing light) to match.  I read somewhere that using the LED procedure can actually set 5d TDC static to ‘get the engine started’ easily.  I didn’t see this myself, but it brings up the next point.  Personally I wouldn’t run the default map and LED timing except to test, and certainly not on the road and under load.

Do NOT set up static timing, it screws everything up, and you would have to ADD that to all the values 123ign “sees” in real time and when you add vacuum retard “maps” (which *will* kick in at 1500rpm by default) it gets way too confusing.  That is IF you run a vacuum advance line / dizzy (I do)- most with triple DCOEs won’t (or can’t as there isn’t a common plenum).   You confuse the123ign and more importantly yourself as to the advance you are running.

I did write to Ed Madak, before install and he was very helpful  The instructions are incomplete and they expect you have some knowledge. He said:

“Hi Richard

Setting the app to 0 and the number one cylinder to TDC is preferred as it will show exactly what you have set your timing to.

Always confirm using a timing light and synchronize the app with the motor.

Hope this helps“

It did help.  So you don’t think I’m a fanboy, here are some issues I have experienced and tried to solve:

1. The install instructions are terrible. Read the above and take note, hard lessons learned, you must confirm you have TDC marked correctly on your harmonic balancer.  Then use a good timing light, one with dialback if you can.  I even made an ‘newbie’s guide’ (ymmv) of my 123ign install & posted it on YouTube: 

2. These engines love advance, but personally I don’t exceed 35d advance even at 8000rpm (it’s never driven as a race-car).  I also usually RPM limit at 7500, 123ign does random spark cut to keep to that limit.  My tach is very accurate and the function works as advertised. I have a ‘hotter cam grind’ and don’t want to bend valves or blow a head gasket.

2. Problems I have had are mostly with the app:  

i) Sometimes it doesn’t load any curve, and seems to run whatever you save as Default.123 - so make that a gentle map with good idle but one where you will notice a big difference under acceleration (and can’t trash your engine).  Butt dyno to the rescue.

ii) The ‘map curve’ which does ignition adv/retard from vacuum is difficult to understand at first, I wish it had an option to change it to Hg (mercury), rather than Abs pressure (kP) which the dizzy uses.  Yes, you can look up conversion. My default is very gentle, but I have more aggressive maps to run:

Default MAP

No. Abs Pressure (kP).  Degrees Crank
1   0  0

2   29  0

3  30  5

4  45  7

5  85  0

6  100 0

7  200 0

Note: If the Map you’re reading is shown in Degrees camshaft, you need to convert to crank by using a x2 factor. That’s buried in the crap instructions.  Crank rotates twice for every single cam rotation. Look at the gear sizes on the timing chain! So you multiply cam x2 to get crank degrees.

ii)  You can ‘immobilize’ your car in the app, which is a feature I like (I used to run a manual kill switch). It used to work correctly, but now when I go back to settings after disconnecting, the app looks like it’s ready to go.  But it isn’t, the engine will die right away.  You have to enable, then disable the function.  On my New iphone anyway.  Not ideal.

Iii)  The GPS speedo is rubbish compared to other iPhone GPS apps and Speedos on the market.  Sometimes it says I’m doing 153 mph (yeah, right) sometimes 25mph and I’m doing a steady 65mph on the freeway. Mostly.  But it’s okay as a check, my analog speedo isn’t accurate at some speeds (very low and above 60mph).  So it can help ‘fill in the gaps’.

iv)  As discussed, the cap and rotor aren’t great, and way too expensive.  Replace the cap and rotor with a Bosch one.  The ‘71 280SL Mercedes and the ‘65 Porsche 911 2.0L base used the same cap, but that’s from memory.  Buy products made in Europe, so Germany or Italy.  Go to a Porsche site or Imports parts supply. 
Dizzy cap for 123ignition 123 Tune+
Bosch 1 235 522 060  or Beru VK102

Part Number for the rotor is:
  Bosch 1 234 332 024 or 1234 332 088 which supersedes the 024
WVE 4R1209

For example, a good quality rotor (Italian made) is also available here for $25 shipped: https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F333529359496

I bought a Bosch cap NOS (in original box) on eBay for around $16, in fact I got two- and was happy.  If I wasn’t (cracked or used) I would have sent it back for a refund under eBay/PayPal policy.

Finally, the rotor should not come with a resistor, I’ve modified mine by soldering in a piece of ‘house wiring’ gauge  copper wire  No problems at all, but you may need to file the top of the wire flatter to have good clearance. Good practice would be to encase the copper wire run in epoxy, so you don’t get unwanted spark jumps. Especially if you run MSD 6AL and a hotter coil.

v) No data logging.  A huge disappointment, or has to track the data, why not be able to save a ‘pull’ to look back at what the dizzy (and the car) did.  Fix this!

That’s it.  My experience has been quite good.  These are machines.  Cars and engines go wrong.  You all know that.  There’s probably more I could say, but I hadn’t intended to write a book when I started.  If you’re reading this far, you have the benefit of what I’ve discovered.   I like the 123i Tune+ dizzy and plan to use another one soon- maybe just the USB one as it could have a single standard tune.  This is on a built stroker 3.xL with triple webber DCOEs, hot cam, etc.  I’m not scared that if set up correctly, it won’t detonate your engine.  It should default to a map that ‘still makes sense’ if it goes out. BTW the holes 4&5 on the L6 are more prone to failure than the others.  Don’t ask me how I know...

Edited March 5, 20205 yr by Firepower
Spelling. Added GPS speedometer inaccuracy.

Bravo on the install video. ? Great Job!

Just a follow up regarding this particular 123ignition distributor.

Upon receipt of the unit, I installed it in my 1969 MGC where it has been working flawlessly since. 

New price on rotor after review. Plus free shipping in Continental USA. Thanks for the support from the Classiczcars.

Hope this helps

Ed

Edited March 5, 20205 yr by 123ignitionusa

On 5/23/2019 at 1:41 PM, Rill Cosby said:

Then why are you even here?

I think Zed Head /  Rill Cosby have valuable points to contribute. Hopefully, that’s why they’re here.  We can have different opinions about the same product.  And different experiences.  IMHO- The OP should have torn down the engine to determine why it failed, before blaming the 123ign unit.  Send it back & ask for a refund? Of course, if they offer one and he is unhappy.  But I suspect there’s nothing actually wrong with it.  

To just post a rant saying a unit is crap (without any evidence) is negative.  My point is:  If The OP can’t be bothered to investigate the problem fully, he can’t just say ‘don’t buy this product’. Better would be ‘I had a bad experience, and this is what I discovered when I dug deeper’.

Edited March 5, 20205 yr by Firepower