1972 240Z Vintage Z Program Car up for Auction on BaT

[Jason240z]

I can say with complete confidence that Aston did their own recreations before 2014, I think there were some at Goodwood when I use to work there(2009-12), also that they started doing them in the late 80's, however the early ones were for racing i know.

What I don't get/trust is some on the BAT thread.

Every factually correct post gets removed, people trying to pass on their own version of facts as correct for their own agendas.  Not to mention all the sellers in the threads saying i've sold x for $$$$$$ off here trying to artificially increase prices.

Edited July 20, 2019 by Jason240z

[26th-Z]

I concur, the BaT conversation was entertaining; something along the sit-com style.  I did notice one of your posts deleted, Alan, and I don't understand how that happened other than my previous clown-show comment.  I read it and then saw it deleted later.

The VZ program was indeed a unique event in automotive history, on many different points of argument, and ranks right up there in the mentionables category.  Alan, I think your point is on an intellectual platform, far different than the sensationalistic cries of passion we saw on BaT.  The Dream Garage ad campaign and the Z Store were a two million dollar event at Nissan USA in the late 90s.  They signaled the end of the Z-car for a period of time.  That was a big deal.  Considering the scale at which Nissan USA approached the restoration program, it was pretty damned unique.  Were they the first, the only; did Nissan "conceive" of this outrageous idea?  No.  Of course not.  Factory reconditioning and resale goes back to before the war.  Read your automotive history.  We don't need to quibble about Aston Martin.

The sensationalists ruled the day, however, and some poor bastard took home a car that needed work for a price five times what that car would have cost ten years ago.  Personally, I'm encouraged.

[HS30-H]

1 hour ago, 26th-Z said:

The VZ program was indeed a unique event in automotive history, on many different points of argument, and ranks right up there in the mentionables category.  Alan, I think your point is on an intellectual platform, far different than the sensationalistic cries of passion we saw on BaT.  The Dream Garage ad campaign and the Z Store were a two million dollar event at Nissan USA in the late 90s.  They signaled the end of the Z-car for a period of time.  That was a big deal.  Considering the scale at which Nissan USA approached the restoration program, it was pretty damned unique.  Were they the first, the only; did Nissan "conceive" of this outrageous idea?  No.  Of course not.  Factory reconditioning and resale goes back to before the war.  Read your automotive history.  We don't need to quibble about Aston Martin.

Chris,

I absolutely concur that the wider 'Z Store' project was unique, and that in turn the 'VZ Program' part of it was unique in its wider scope of volume buy-in (the "scale" that you mention) and commissioned restoration for resale. I don't need to concede that because it's a given. What I don't agree with is the ill-informed hyperbole from certain individuals who really ought to know better, and I find that a more measured appraisal - like yours - is better for the marque in the long run. As you point out, and others do not want to believe, in the past other motor manufacturers have restored their own used cars for resale and some continue to do so. That aspect is not "unique".

For me, a lot of this goes back to those days when people were talking about "Factory restoration" and leading people to believe this project was something other than what it really was. A lot of people didn't like the clarification being made, but when automotive journalists - who should know better - were themselves believing that the cars had been sent back to Japan and, in turn, misleading their readers, I believe the term "Factory restoration" was an inappropriate term for us to throw around. Is it my imagination or are we doing a better job of describing these cars than we used to?  

I have to say that your work on rounding up the facts and putting the whole thing into some semblance of order for us has been a great benefit to the legacy of the 'VZ' project, and will have certainly helped this latest BaT sale even if the cast in the sitcom didn't know it. Your data and explanation of the whole story was certainly a great benefit to one Japanese owner whom I passed it on to, and he was very grateful. Good work. Thank you.       

[Mike]

Amazing, another 6-figure sale..  

[kats]

Hi Alan , I am now dreaming about to own a VZ , then install a S20 . I am wondering how I can draw attention from people in the US . ( not in Japan . People always give higher Regards to RHD Z s ) . 

When I get old soon , I will have to let my cars go to someone.  Finally I will have one car , and A VZ with a S20 would be a single fireworks ball for my graduation of Z life ? 

Chris , I have a question. A VZ is never eligible to attend the ZCCA judged car show , is it true ? If it is true , Where would I set off a fireworks? On BAT ?

I see recent results on BAT is telling that provenance and / or clearness bring a huge demand of enthusiasts.

Not so important about originals details.

So If I put a S20 on a VZ doesn’t hurt the value of the car , does it ? ( of course all the components which came with the car are included for the buyer ) .

I am just drea?ming about . I have a particular VZ car in my mind.

Kats

Edited July 21, 2019 by kats

[HS30-H]

2 hours ago, kats said:

Hi Alan , I am now dreaming about to own a VZ , then install a S20 . I am wondering how I can draw attention from people in the US . ( not in Japan . People always give higher Regards to RHD Z s ) . 

When I get old soon , I will have to let my cars go to someone.  Finally I will have one car , and A VZ with a S20 would be a single fireworks ball for my graduation of Z life ? 

 

 

I am just drea?ming about . I have a particular VZ car in my mind.

Kats,

As you know, I am all in favour of your LHD S20-engined plan. I'm cheering you on! However, I can't say that I have taken on any of my own project cars and thought about future value. How much would my 432-R 'replica' project car be worth if I had to sell it? Maybe not even as much as the component parts would sell for. And my white 240ZG that I'm now putting together would probably be worth more as a totally stock 240ZG, but I don't want to do that... I hink you should do what you want to and take a few people with you on your journey. Any car will find a buyer in the end, and who would not want to buy an ex-Kats car?

I don't think this BaT bubble is going to last all that long. It's a really strange format for me. Bidding on a car you cannot personally inspect in the metal before buying is never ideal, and it seems to me that a relatively small group of people are commenting on the auctions - some of them 'bidding' - and the BaT site owners are moderating comments before they are posted. One or two characters seem to be allowed to say almost anything they like whilst controlling the narrative. There's a potential for all sorts of shenanigans. 

Your 'S20-powered VZ' project might change a few minds. According to our new BaT friend 'Lstepp4re' apparently "....Here in the US we didn’t know of or care about JDM.. we knew about Datsun 240Zs that most of us couldn’t afford or acquire ..and as such ..99% of the people on this site ..just don’t care about the JDM market...".  He reminds me of somebody.

My personal favourite 'VZ' car? This one:

   

[Jason240z]

7 hours ago, HS30-H said:

Kats,

As you know, I am all in favour of your LHD S20-engined plan. I'm cheering you on! However, I can't say that I have taken on any of my own project cars and thought about future value. How much would my 432-R 'replica' project car be worth if I had to sell it? Maybe not even as much as the component parts would sell for. And my white 240ZG that I'm now putting together would probably be worth more as a totally stock 240ZG, but I don't want to do that... I hink you should do what you want to and take a few people with you on your journey. Any car will find a buyer in the end, and who would not want to buy an ex-Kats car?

I don't think this BaT bubble is going to last all that long. It's a really strange format for me. Bidding on a car you cannot personally inspect in the metal before buying is never ideal, and it seems to me that a relatively small group of people are commenting on the auctions - some of them 'bidding' - and the BaT site owners are moderating comments before they are posted. One or two characters seem to be allowed to say almost anything they like whilst controlling the narrative. There's a potential for all sorts of shenanigans. 

Your 'S20-powered VZ' project might change a few minds. According to our new BaT friend 'Lstepp4re' apparently "....Here in the US we didn’t know of or care about JDM.. we knew about Datsun 240Zs that most of us couldn’t afford or acquire ..and as such ..99% of the people on this site ..just don’t care about the JDM market...".  He reminds me of somebody.

My personal favourite 'VZ' car? This one:

   

A few point mr HS30-H

1) Please never sell the 432r 'recreation'

2) Can I go on the list, even if its just to say "I can't afford it'

3)That 'vz' car is in my top 5 all time fav's!!

[Diseazd]

7 hours ago, HS30-H said:

.. I hink you should do what you want to and take a few people with you on your journey. Any car will find a buyer in the end, and who would not want to buy an ex-Kats car?

 

I agree whole heartedly......in the 70’s, these cars were driven off the show room floor and immediately began the transition to being personalized to become a car to be driven. Stock restored Z’s are cool to look at, but if you have one beside it with some goodies to bring it up to snuff, you are going to climb in the modified Z every time. In the 70’s, you noticed the lowered, spoilered, wider wheels and tuned exhaust Z’s with a lot more respect than the stock cars. John Morton and Pete Brock and Bob Sharp were responsible......these cars are easy to modify and a blast to drive hard.......they are all cool cars, just some cooler than others!

[240260280]

8 minutes ago, Diseazd said:

.they are all cool cars, just some cooler than others!

[Diseazd]

Same car........which one you gonna want to borrow?

 

 

Edited July 21, 2019 by Diseazd

[26th-Z]

Thank you for the kind words, Alan.  I'm certainly not expecting any sort of concession.  You are right with your recollection of the "factory restoration" conversation.  That was particularly what started my research.  For the record:

Two articles written about the Vintage Zs describe them as “factory” restored insinuating to the uninformed reader that the cars were returned to the original Japanese factory for restoration.  One article appeared in the June 1998 issue of “Road & Track” magazine entitled; “ Datsun 240Z, Factory Resurrected”.  Interestingly, Douglas Kott reports a price of $29,950 which may have been the case 12 months after the Z-Store program began.  An article that appeared in the March 1997 Z Car Club of Washington newsletter references a factory restoration.  Phil Deushane, IAPA, discusses the unprecedented task of a factory restoration and resale of an original car.  He refers to the “restoration shop” during a discussion of the logistics of such a task, however it is vague concerning whom is doing what.  Interestingly, Marc Sayer reports in the summer issue of “ZCar” magazine;

            “…Nissan would prefer for people to think of these cars as having come from Nissan rather than from a particular subcontractor, a sentiment I heartily endorse.”

Marc discusses the introduction of Pierre Perrot as reserved for the Vintage Z Rally       “I also think that Nissan wanted to make a big deal of the announcement of who the renovators were at the launch.”

[SpeedRoo]

Not sure I understand how any factory can do a "factory restoration". The factory builds new cars, usually on an assembly line, using new components. They have certification/homologation approval from their relevant national authority to do so which allows them to sell the vehicle as a new car in applicable markets.  Now the factory may have their service/restoration department restore a car to as new condition but that is still not a "factory restoration". With the Z Store program my understanding is Nissan USA commissioned the restoration of 37 cars to as new condition which they sold through Nissan dealers in the USA. NOS stock components from their warehouse were used and I think 4 outside "Z" specialists tasked with the restorations.

The Z Store 240Z I want to know more about is the rarest one, number 38 of 37. The 240ZR as the Z Store likes to refer to it!