Snarky comments to people not wearing masks - wrong?

[Zed Head]

51 minutes ago, duffymahoney said:

I stand by my comment that a knitted mask with visible holes is stupid though:) 

That's not what you said in your first post.

I think that your friend is irresponsible and should be reported for spreading information that is counter to CDC guidance. He's not the President of the United States.  Even if he thinks he knows better it is irresponsible and dangerous to suggest that the organization that he works for is giving illegitimate guidance.  It puts everything the CDC is doing in to question.

That's where I'm coming from. 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/diy-cloth-face-coverings.html

CDC on Homemade Cloth Face Coverings

CDC recommends wearing cloth face coverings in public settings where other social distancing measures are difficult to maintain (e.g., grocery stores and pharmacies), especially in areas of significant community-based transmission.

CDC also advises the use of simple cloth face coverings to slow the spread of the virus and help people who may have the virus and do not know it from transmitting it to others.  Cloth face coverings fashioned from household items or made at home from common materials at low cost can be used as an additional, voluntary public health measure.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Zed Head

[jonbill]

Just a fun fact.

A good oil filter filters particles about 10 micron, and I suppose we think of them filtering quite well.

 

Coronavirus is about 100 nm. So about 100 of them can pass side by side through an oil filter unimpeded.

 

Aerosolised virus appears to be defined as droplets smaller 5 micron,

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00974-w These small droplets are what you breathe out.

So two of them can pass side by side through our oil filter.

Odds on, no consumer mask is going to do better than an oil filter. Probably nothing like as good actually.

 

I'm sure a half decent mask is effective in catching droplets from coughing and sneezing. And those droplets can carry more than 6 metres.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/how-far-do-coughs-and-sneezes-travel/amp/

 

so wearing a mask when you're coughing and sneezing, or around people that are coughing and sneezing would seem sensible.

like in hospitals.

 

Wearing one at the supermarket seems like mainly theater to me. It probably can't hurt, except of course if you're using masks that could otherwise be used in hospitals.

 

 

 

[Zed Head]

11 hours ago, jonbill said:

Wearing one at the supermarket seems like mainly theater to me. 

That's another failing of the message from the authorities.  Confusing masks and face coverings.

I think that the reason for a face covering at the supermarket is mostly because we all touch many things that we don't buy and we're in close quarters to the items.  Think about how many steaks or packages of chicken that you've picked up and put back on the shelf, or containers of milk, or bags of chips.  The handles on the carts or baskets.  The credit card machine, the conveyor belt.  All pretty close to your face and the droplets will just sit there for the next person to come along.

Another thing that people tend to do is the "all or nothing" approach.  If the face covering doesn't stop all of the virus carrying droplets then it's a waste of time.  The reality though is that the effort is about minimizing the spread.  Cuomo points out every day that New York has an R value, or spread value, of 0.9.  All it takes is a small percentage of the population to start infecting more than one person each, and the whole thing starts again.

Here's a good story to read or pass along to people who think that the virus can't spread by breath alone.  They knew and they took precautions.  But no face coverings or masks.

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-03-29/coronavirus-choir-outbreak

[jonbill]

Yes, probs no harm using a home made face covering. It might even catch a small % of virus particles. But if it is spread by breath alone it won't be doing enough to warrant being arsey with peole not wearing one (to answer your original question). At the nm scale, most people's face covering would be like using cod trawler net for plankton.

(I just looked up the definition of plankton and its bigger than I thought, but still....)

 

 

 

 

[Zed Head]

16 minutes ago, jonbill said:

 But if it is spread by breath alone it won't be doing enough to warrant being arsey with peole not wearing one (to answer your original question). At the nm scale, most people's face covering would be like using cod trawler net for plankton.

You seem to be just pulling "facts" from the internet to try to support a point.  Like the guy in the supermarket with no face covering, walking with his eight year old son, but wearing gloves.  He claimed ignorance of the CDC guidance, but tried to use the fact that he had gloves and I didn't to gain the high ground.  Not only was he careless of society's concerns, but he was setting a bad example for his son.  No offense, pseudo arguments are good mental exercise, I get it.

It's a free society.  You don't have to wear a face covering but the scientific evidence supports the effectiveness of doing it as slowing transmission.  The evidence from the trained professionals, not the thought experiments from the internet.  It's a matter of degree.  

Sorry, but I can't just ignore the science.  Most of the good things in the world come from its proper application.

Here's some pseudo-science for anyone who wants to go that route.  It's been commercialized.  

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/04/church-of-bleach-ordered-to-stop-selling-bleach-as-covid-19-cure/

 

[jonbill]

I'm joining the dots between some facts I know, but I could be wrong. I'm always happy to go with the real science evidence presented by experts. Please could you share it again? I must have missed it.

[Zed Head]

I concede.  There is no definitive paper that measures the effectiveness of face covering.  Quite a bit about N95 masks, but the studies are mostly about protecting health care workers.  Not stopping the spread.  A person just has to use logic to get there.  Maybe the CDC is conning people, just to look like they're doing something.  Who knows.  The whole thing really is a hoax, and we're all suckers.

Here's a good paper that covers much of the discussion points though.  Knowledge of distributions, how filter media works, stuff like that.

With the internet though, of course, you can find support for whatever makes you feel right.  So, maybe start a new thread titled "Replies to Snarky Comments".  "Your grandma's a burden on the healthcare system anyway!"  "More for me!"  "No more slow drivers!  Yay"

https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/04/should-you-wear-a-face-mask-heres-all-the-data-we-have/

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/diy-cloth-face-coverings.html

 

[Zed Head]

This whole thing would be so much better if the only people who got the disease were responsible, themselves, for getting it.  Like tobacco and cancer.  Tough luck!

Or if we could track down the people who spread the actual germs that infected somebody you care about.  Death penalty, please...

That's the big dilemma.  Many people are willing to gamble with other people's lives.  That's the core of the argument.  

[Mark Maras]

I assumed a homemade face covering was a barrier between one's face and ones own hands. Before this outbreak I didn't realize how many times a day I touched my face.

[jonbill]

The public health policy around the world wrt face covering/masks is quite varied, some say do, some say don't. I assume all countries have access to the same science, and I'd therefore conclude the scientific case for it is rather weak.
the BBC coincidentally published this today, covering policy around the world.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51205344

[duffymahoney]

Some interesting data, 

 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/best-coronavirus-face-mask-materials-new-study_l_5e99b576c5b6a92100e63129

 

 

[Mike]

Yes, verbal comments about this are wrong and there's no need to shame people.  It's passive aggressiveness...the worst kind of bullying.  I would classify this similar to discrimination.  Just understand that anyone shaming others should be prepared for retaliation, weather it's a strong come-back or even a punch to the face.  You never know what kind of pent-up frustration someone may be holding in and your comment could be the thing that sets them off.  People are really stressed out right now and this just adds to the fire.  Just move along and take your own precautions.