Pay attention Sean!

I put the Yahoo links up, and someone else put the M-speed website on this or the other thread, blimey, little hope.

11 hours ago, Sean Dezart said:

not rocket science

Its not. Google translate can even help you, put wheel in, you get ホイール  add z432 and search Yahoo Japan auctions.

Thanks (Ian ?) : https://auctions.yahoo.co.jp/search/search?auccat=&tab_ex=commerce&ei=utf-8&aq=-1&oq=&sc_i=&fr=auc_top&p=ホイール+Z432&x=0&y=0

So, the Japanese auction prices with tax comes to :

1x Z432 : $365(plus shipping) sold here at $599

1x Z432 Rally (works) : $396(plus shipping) sold here at $650

4x Z432 Rally (works) :$1426(plus shipping) sold here at $2600 - my price = $1360 (for supporting forum members) or $1390 for others

 

But the prices are not my point which is better inllustrated in this thread (where, incidentally, Gavin calls the sames wheels 'reproductions' 😉) : https://www.viczcar.com/forums/topic/9553-kobe-seiko-wheels-works-rally-rims-and-more/page/3/

Please scroll down to Gavins' post of wheels fitted to a US buyers' Z dated the 8th April 2019. One sees the inside of the wheels with the build location rubbed out and a simple M-Speed white sticker placed inside the rim seen in the attached photos.

 

So, evidently, someone and presumably M-Speed as they're selling them thus, don't want buyers to know the country of origin...and before Alan says 'that's to avoid someone approaching the factory' sic, thousands of wheels are made all over the world that happily have cast their country of origin including Chinese wheels. The factory would happily have had cast whatever M-Speed wanted.....IF M-Speed had asked.😂

M-Speed wanted/wants to sell these wheels in Japan (and now in the States via JDM parts) as 'Japanese' wheels under Japanese prices and that's why Alan felt that they were 'fair' prices in the JDM.

 

Please.....don't preach to me anymore about ethics !

12 minutes ago, Sean Dezart said:

So, evidently, someone and presumably M-Speed as they're selling them thus, don't want buyers to know the country of origin...and before Alan says 'that's to avoid someone approaching the factory' sic, thousands of wheels are made all over the world that happily have cast their country of origin including Chinese wheels. The factory would happily have had cast whatever M-Speed wanted.....IF M-Speed had asked.😂

M-Speed wanted/wants to sell these wheels in Japan (and now in the States via JDM parts) as 'Japanese' wheels under Japanese prices and that's why Alan felt that they were 'fair' prices in the JDM.

Everyone - but everyone! - knows that they are made in China! When M-Speed first put them on the market in Japan there was much discussion about the price points only being possible because they were made in China. I've even heard people in Japan refer to them as "the Chinese ones". It is in no way a secret. 

You seem to be way out of your depth here. You don't appear to have any concept of the Japanese costings, let alone the politics involved in all of this.

 

16 minutes ago, Sean Dezart said:

and before Alan says 'that's to avoid someone approaching the factory' sic...

And I'm going to point - once again - at your bizarre Straw Man style technique of putting words in someone else's mouth and then refuting them, as though it's a real thing. It isn't.

23 minutes ago, Sean Dezart said:

But the prices are not my point which is better inllustrated in this thread (where, incidentally, Gavin calls the sames wheels 'reproductions' 😉) : https://www.viczcar.com/forums/topic/9553-kobe-seiko-wheels-works-rally-rims-and-more/page/3/

@Gav240z Care to comment on this, Gavin?

I don't get Sean's constant reference to the words 'Reproduction', 'Replica' - or whatever rubbery and blurred-around-the-edges terms we care to use - as being so troublesome. We all know these terms are moveable feasts at the best of times. It's just a distraction.

6 minutes ago, HS30-H said:

I don't get Sean's constant reference to the words 'Reproduction', 'Replica' - or whatever rubbery and blurred-around-the-edges terms we care to use - as being so troublesome. We all know these terms are moveable feasts at the best of times. It's just a distraction.

9/29/2020 at 3:30 pm RIP 260Z said :

Lets be clear here, the M-speed wheels, either the Z432 style or "works" style are not reproductions of the original Kobe Seiko wheels. The M-speed are in the style of. They differ in design, and weight and I think off-set too. The z432 style and original Kobe Seiko I have, do so. The other reproductions done here in the UK and Japan, more than likely took a cast of an original to make some reproductions/replicas. The M-speed are different, therefore can't be reproductions. In the style of.

So, I call them replicas/reproductions, Alan does and so does Gavin - so, what do you want to call them ? I'm calling them reproductions - period.😊

 

22 hours ago, HS30-H said:

I don't think you need any help in the advertising department. You are almost literally everywhere, giving it the pile-'em-high-and-sell-'em-cheap schtick. Apart, of course, from where you've been asked not to by admin who understand what is going on... 

You mean of course on those forums where I ASKED before posting ! I posted here because the 'reproduction' wheels are already on sale in this continent.

 

Move on Alan - you'll change nothing and I'm thoroughly done with your point-scoring - grow up man.

Happy to add my 2 cents, especially since I've been asked to join in. I read this thread last night and was trying to make sense of it.

@Sean Dezart - You messaged me about posting these wheels on my own forum (www.viczcar.com). But before I gave you the go ahead, I wanted to know more about these wheels and the product before giving you the go ahead for several reasons.

1. I recall seeing someone in Eastern Europe offering the M-speed style wheels for literally half the price of what M-speed were charging elsewhere. Naturally this seemed too good to be true.
2. Subsequently there was discussion around the person offering these wheels and how they were so cheap? From what I could ascertain before the listings were removed from Marketplace is that they were squirrelled out of the backdoor of the same factory M-speed had commissioned to cast them in China. Bypassing M-speed who had done all the ground work in bringing them to market.
3. You started offering the style of wheels (The Kobe Seiko Rally Mags (wide) and 432 spec (narrow)) a few weeks later.
4. I asked you if you had gone to the effort of reproducing the wheels or if they were M-speed and you were distributing for them, but I didn't get a clear answer.

This photo of the "Made in" and the rest appears ground off..

https://www.classiczcars.com/forums/topic/64479-parts-for-sale-4x-reproduction-nissan-fairlady-z432-wheels-in-aluminum/?do=findComment&comment=606678

To me it looks like you're trying to obfuscate where they have come from or who made them for that matter, but why do that?

Anyway, why does it matter where they came from or where they are made?

Simple, M-speed spent a lot of money, time and R&D to bring these wheels to market, so whatever price they charge is their business and they should be able to charge whatever price they want. The market will tell them if it's too expensive or not.

If you were to commission the same wheels, do the same R&D and decide to offer them at half the price of M-speed, that would be fair. Nobody would be complaining. But what you're doing is taking the hard work and capital that M-speed has kicked into this project and undercut them, but this also creates another downstream problem. Determining which wheels are from M-speed and which ones are posing as M-Speed. It may also deter companies like M-speed from doing similar projects in future as a result and as a community we all lose out when that happens.

Q. How do you know the ones sold to you direct from the factory are of the same quality as the ones M-speed is selling? Has it not occurred to you that M-speed may have many batches of wheels sent to them for testing before selling them to the wider market and a bunch of those wheels may be discarded after QC because of the Chinese attitude of "Cha Bu Duo"? Or that the wheels commissioned by M-speed must be done to a higher standard and strength and materials (alloys used must be higher quality), and since they are charing M-speed more for this standard that's fine, but if they are selling them out the back door or via Alibaba marketplace then just Cha Bu Duo will do?

Example of wheel testing in Japan on Weds Wheels

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJeFB6SRslk

This is why I have concerns about the wheels myself, since I'm not sure what testing has been done and if you are checking any of these wheels yourself for quality and standards.

Let's face it the people who want these wheels are probably looking to mount them on cars they have invested a lot of money into and the last thing they want when driving at 100km/h and hitting a pot hole is to have a wheel crack in half on them and cause them to crash or injure themselves.

I'm also going through the process of potentially making Kobe Seiko wheels (yes I will call them replicas) but in 15x8 +0 spec.

As you know I have 3 'original' Kobe Seiko magnesium wheels in my possession.

1x wide and 2x narrow.

We have had the wide version scanned already, but scanning was simple. The next step was to convert that rough scan into a more 'solid' CAD version and tidy up the roughness of the scan itself. Then extrapolate the spokes to make it 15" and widen it to 8". You can see this in the images here.

My partner and I (in this venture) have already invested quite a bit of money to get the project to this stage. The next stages will include what's known as FEA (Finite Element Analysis) which involves VSB14 and the standards for the wheels are to be made to comply with: AS 1638-1991 and ISO 3006:2015 (or a more updated version if there is 1). 

I believe this will be equivalent to the Japanese industry certification that Alan was referring to, but in Australia.

Once we get through all of that, it will be onto sourcing high grade alloy material and working with a local foundry to start casting wheels.

We still don't know what it will cost to turn out the first wheel, but I'm guessing it won't be cheap. In part because we are not going to go the China route like everyone else. I believe this thread is a good reason why, but also we will have more control over quality and quantity produced. But also we will be employing locals and local industry keeping skills local.

I actually think you'd be better off becoming an M-speed distributor rather than trying to undercut them. This is because anyone who has an interest in these wheels is likely to also have an interest in quality items being fitted to their car and not likely wanting to risk it by fitting Cha Bu Duo spec wheels to their car.

If you were to contact the local foundry in Australia that helps me produce my own wheels looking to buy direct from them, then I'd want them to tell you to go away as Alan mentioned. Since they are contracted to produce a wheel where I own the casting mould or buck and have invested in that capital / tooling to produce them. The foundry was paid to make the wheel for myself (and partner) not so they can take that design / pattern and go make 1000s of them to sell on eBay etc..

 

 

2 hours ago, Gav240z said:

My partner and I (in this venture)

LOL... I dislike that word too... confuses people on one's relationship these days. More importantly... Great grass-roots effort! Luv it!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited October 1, 20204 yr by 240260280

1 hour ago, Gav240z said:

1. I recall seeing someone in Eastern Europe offering the M-speed style wheels for literally half the price of what M-speed were charging elsewhere. Naturally this seemed too good to be true.
2. Subsequently there was discussion around the person offering these wheels and how they were so cheap? From what I could ascertain before the listings were removed from Marketplace is that they were squirrelled out of the backdoor of the same factory M-speed had commissioned to cast them in China.
3. I asked you if you had gone to the effort of reproducing the wheels or if they were M-speed and you were distributing for them, but I didn't get a clear answer.

This photo of the "Made in" and the rest appears ground off.

To me it looks like you're trying to obfuscate where they have come from or who made them for that matter, but why do that?

Hello Gavin.

I read words like 'seemed' and 'could ascertain' which are really just your personal opinion aren't they - no proof.

3) because the answer isn't clear and I'm unwilling to make that clear.....yet !

The 'Made'in' is partially ground off but not at my demand - I asked if it was cast somewhere and it had been a condition imposed before exporting - I said no need on my behalf hence partially done. The better question to ask is why M-Speed insisted upon grinding off the 'Made in China' ? Even if everyone in Japan knew or guessed at their origin - why have the factory grind off the origin country ?

2 hours ago, Gav240z said:

Anyway, why does it matter where they came from or where they are made?

Simple, M-speed spent a lot of money, time and R&D to bring these wheels to market, so whatever price they charge is their business and they should be able to charge whatever price they want. The market will tell them if it's too expensive or not.

Nobody would be complaining. But what you're doing is taking the hard work and capital that M-speed has kicked into this project and undercut them, but this also creates another downstream problem. Determining which wheels are from M-speed and which ones are posing as M-Speed. It may also deter companies like M-speed from doing similar projects in future as a result and as a community we all lose out when that happens.

Q. How do you know the ones sold to you direct from the factory are of the same quality as the ones M-speed is selling? Has it not occurred to you that M-speed may have many batches of wheels sent to them for testing before selling them to the wider market and a bunch of those wheels may be discarded after QC because of the Chinese attitude of "Cha Bu Duo"? Or that the wheels commissioned by M-speed must be done to a higher standard and strength and materials (alloys used must be higher quality), and since they are charing M-speed more for this standard that's fine, but if they are selling them out the back door or via Alibaba marketplace then just Cha Bu Duo will do?

Why does it matter ? Long story on and off between Alan, Jason and myself but it does matter to you ''Cha Bu Duo'' ! I'm not complaining about M-Speeds' or their retailers' prices here and the market HAS told them they're too expensive.  There are no orders coming into the factory !

I can't see why any of you are complaining - none are posing as M-Speed, they're all coming from the same factory and all of the same factory-inspected quality. How were M-Speed going to test batches and IF any were discarded, do you genuinely believe M-Speed would post back a few pallets ? You, like the other pair are deliberately casting doubt on these wheels in an attempt to simply scare off buyers. The only way that you want to see wheels like this on the market is expensively so as to deter Joe Dough from buying and therefore their prolification upon Zs......in effect, you want to keep them exclusive !

2 hours ago, Gav240z said:

This is why I have concerns about the wheels myself, since I'm not sure what testing has been done and if you are checking any of these wheels yourself for quality and standards.

Let's face it the people who want these wheels are probably looking to mount them on cars they have invested a lot of money into and the last thing they want when driving at 100km/h and hitting a pot hole is to have a wheel crack in half on them and cause them to crash or injure themselves.

These wheels must arrive chez M-Speed and all that's done is all a white sticker inside which may well be done at the factory before packing for all I know. If I were them, I'd even be shipping the wheels direct from China to their retailer here to increase margins.

All this lark about M-Speed quality testing is nonsense - they are a retailer not metallurgists - please be responsable in your remarks. The same doubts were cast by Alan on the UK importing of Atara Pisang wheels that 'emulate' and are 'in the style' of Watanabes  but they're fine, running on several race-cars in Europe now.

You, yourself were keen about the M-Speed emulations a year ago - very excited and NOW you have concerns.....none of you want the ordinary guy to have anything that approaches the Holy-Grail styles of period wheels.

3 hours ago, Gav240z said:

If you were to contact the local foundry in Australia that helps me produce my own wheels looking to buy direct from them, then I'd want them to tell you to go away as Alan mentioned.  The foundry was paid to make the wheel for myself (and partner) not so they can take that design / pattern and go make 1000s of them to sell on eBay etc..

Of course you would but will they ? If the cost is so high that you can't sell enough* of these.....what's going to happen ?

* and 'enough' is the key word here, M'Speed aren't  and the wheels presumably ordered by them but unpaid are being sold by the factory...I'm not stealing, I'm buying them at the market rate, slightly above that (I believe) of M-Speeds' price. These are the same quality as those seen sonce (2xyears ?) ago and any assumptions to the contrary are not only irresponsable, placing doubt on the M-Speed supplied wheels themselves but complete nonsense designed solely to discourage buyers !

 

We've gone around the merrygoround now lads :

 

Firstly it was who made them and ethics

Then doubt the quality.

Then ethics again.

Now quality again...

 

I'll put up one of these wheels against one bought from the uS M-Speed retailer and someone independant have them both tested in complete confidence that they are exactly the same

 

3 hours ago, Gav240z said:

It may also deter companies like M-speed from doing similar projects in future as a result and as a community we all lose out when that happens.

But that is just exactly what you guys want - no more Chinese cheap parts and please, don't mention the community when none of you want 'the community' to benefit.....unless you're rich !

I wish you all the success in your endeavours Gavin and you've certainly got the moral highground by supporting local industry and jobs but I wonder whether it will be commercially succesful - will the 8x15s (and yes, put me down for a set please*) be 2000GTs or 240Zs ? Btw, (bit of humour😄) nice  balance weight - I always get mine stuck inside.

@Gav240z will you be doing them in Magnesium? 

1 hour ago, Jason240z said:

@Gav240z will you be doing them in Magnesium? 

Kidney anyone ? 😁

2 hours ago, Jason240z said:

@Gav240z will you be doing them in Magnesium? 

Unless an individual wants to pay - in advance - for a set in Magnesium, it is highly unlikely.
Working with Mg creates a whole new group of issues...
As Mr T alluded to in an earlier post, the cost of is exercise is exorbitant, as we are doing it buy the book - FEA, Stress Calcs, destructive testing, engineering type approval...
And no Mr Desert, they are not commercially viable - we may not even make them available to anyone other than Gav and myself. Time will tell. 

I digress... I have nothing to add to this merry-go-round other than:
If you want a set of Mr Deserts wheels, then buy a set.
Or don't.
Simples.