Window Won't Roll

[Tweeds]

Made the classic mistake of doing something without knowing what the Hell I was doing today. I was trying to take off the metal part of the door that is obscuring most of the window so I could put a nut on a bolt to attach the passenger mirror (the holes where the bolt goes in to attach the mirror to the door are too large - the bolt wont thread, so I needed a nut on the inside of the door to keep the bolts, and in turn mirror in place). I couldn't reach the bolts to put a nut on, so I thought I'd have to take the metal off.

What Happened:

I figured I'd have to take off all the bolts and screws I could find to get the door apart, and I started with the four screws surrounding the window crank, pictured in the first image. Going into it I figured it had something to do with the window mechanism, so I rolled the window all the way down in the unlikely event something went wrong. I removed the bottom right screw, then the top right, and just before I got the top left off, I started thinking that this was a bad decision. Unfortunately, I didn't stop there, despite my better judgment. Once the third screw came off, the window assembly seemed to fall about half an inch. No good I thought. At this point I tried rolling the window up, it didn't seem to do a thing, so I didn't try very hard for fear of making the situation worse. As you may have noticed, the screws are back on, though. I noticed that a metal bit was rotating slightly with the window crank, and on this metal bit were three holes that lined up with where the screws go. So, I turned the crank just enough to thread the screws back in. Such is every detail I can remember leading up to my failure.

What Happens Now:

The window rolls up as far as shown in the second picture, at which point there is a lot of tension in the crank and it won't go any further. The window rolls down all the way as well (though maybe goes down further than before?). The crank only rotates about one full, 360 degree revolution between the window's highest and lowest point. Furthermore, when rolling it back down there's about 1/4 or 1/2 of a revolution where the crank seems to turn freely, and doesn't effect the window's position. Also, the gear (the internal part with the teeth) rotates as well.

 

That's about everything I can think of that might be of help. I'm too scared to tinker with it anymore. I can take more pictures if you need me to. Thanks!

[Zed Head]

One of these articles might help.

https://www.classiczcars.com/articles/body-paint/

[7tooZ]

First of all it’s not the end of the world. I always remind myself that if I took it apart it will probably go back together. So far that has worked. Second I ask assuming  we are talking about a 240 door here. Sounds like you removed three of the four screw showing. Good news. First loosing the same three screws don’t remove them. Trying moving things around to get the back in the same location. May have to loosen the fourth one too. If you can see where they were and get them back. Loosely snug them and try the window again. Try helping the glass rise.  There are two guides that we hope haven’t moved. There is a roller that the top make sure it isn’t blocking the window. I just spent two days replacing  a power window motor on my son Susie. 
worst case is all window/ body shop can fix it. 
other here may have more pertinent help. They will help along the journey. More photos always help. 

[Tweeds]

I read two of the articles, @Zed Head, and shall keep your advice in mind as well, @7tooZ. I'll go see what I can do, and give an update after. 

[Terrapin Z]

Almost sounds like you may have over turned the drive gear in relation to the driven gear in the regulator. Once those separate the spring makes it a little hard to reengage. 

As 7tooZ said pulling up on the glass while turning the crank might work. But if you disengaged the gears you might have to disassemble the whole thing and re-set it all from scratch. 

It is a little challenging but it might be the best option. I'm just not sure if you (a) separated the gears, or (b) if you did, can get them back in line while still in the door. 

I really can't tell much from the pic's But if the handle can spin without moving the window the gear might be separated. IMHO

Again like 7tooZ says not the end of the world, it can be fixed.

The 240Z did not have a passenger mirror, is this an add on of some sort? or a 280Z?

[Tweeds]

Update: I fiddled with the ole' Datsun for a couple hours - half the time trying to figure out the window situation, the other half was taking off the old weather-stripping (it was, from what I gathered, glued on originally, and so sections of it were a real nuisance to get off). I think I made the situation worse, but, there's a silver lining - I think I figured out what was wrong, and it is along the lines of what @Terrapin Z said. The gear itself was very high, for lack of a better word. From my tinkering, I think what happens is that the gear moves freely without pushing the window up or down so long as those four bolts aren't in. However, of this I'm not sure. I wanted to take the door panel off of the driver side so I could compare, but it was much too dark for me to do that. I was working alone, and the lighting in my garage isn't great so not only was it hard to work on the window, it was damn near impossible to get the window crank off because I couldn't find that little clip. The whole time I had to use a flashlight, and I usually needed both hands. At any rate, back to what I found out. Regarding the position of the gear, I think what happened was when I put the bolts back on the first time (as in the picture), that gear was at the position it ought to have been with the window most of the way up, thus explaining why it could go up only slightly. Another possibility, and this one sounds more plausible, is that the gear itself, by a similar principle as the last sentence, was pressing against the glass itself, not allowing the gear to move, therefore not allowing the glass to rise. However, I was not paying attention to the position of the gear initially, so I don't know if this is the case with my original dilemma. Either way, I need to see what's going on with the functioning driver side window as a point of comparison, and I can't do that 'til tomorrow. I'll update then.

After reading your last question a couple times, Terrapin, and being thoroughly confused, I realize that I'm dyslexic - this is news to me that 240z's did not originally come with passenger mirrors. I suppose, then, it is an add on. The mirrors are not stock from any z as far as I can tell, attached will be a photo of them (not taken by me but stolen from the internet).  From what I can find on these mirrors, they might have been used on the 280z, but were discontinued. Other listings describe them as racing/rally mirrors. I'm not entirely sure what the truth is, as there wasn't much mention of them anywhere. Maybe other people would know? MSA also sells similarly shaped mirrors. Either way, one of the owners before me must have bought these mirrors, and that probably explains the horribly drilled holes the passenger mirror is supposed to go in.

 

[Terrapin Z]

I had to learn all about the inside of both doors when I had the car painted. Every thing came out and was cleaned and repaired. Getting them back in line wasn't too hard but I did have to fiddle with it for a while. There are some plastic washers behind the regulator rollers that get damaged and can bind up as well, making it hard to roll up or down. You might need a small mirror to see all of them while in the door. 

Those mirrors do look like the rally mirrors. You can see a few sets on eBay here https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313&_nkw=240z+rally+mirror&_sacat=0 there might be a stamped 40202 under the pivot part (some bay pic's show that too) Looks like they had a seal and bracket that went inside the door. Were yours just sheet metal screwed on the the shell? The stock mirror is still available from Nissan and also had a bracket inside the door. 

We await your update....off to work now.

[Tweeds]

Update: I messed with the window mechanism for a few hours again, and, while I haven't solved anything, I have learned quite a lot. There are three bearings which slide right and left along rails with normal operation of the window. You can see where these bearings are, as well as their position with relation to the the mechanism and the door, in the diagram. Note that the diagram depicts the mechanism with the window all the way up, where in my case the window was all the way down, therefore, the top left and right bearings were positioned towards the bottom of the door for me, not the top. Only one of the bearings was seated inside it's rail when I started, and I managed to get one more in as well - this bearing is shown in the first picture, and, in the diagram, is the one in the top right with a blue check. The third, however, I never managed to slot in - this is shown in the third picture and has a red x in the diagram. In the second picture, you will notice that the gear itself is showing on one door, but isn't in the other, furthermore that gear is pressing up against the glass. I tried winding the window, and unlike yesterday, the window does not go up or down at all. In fact, the handle will only rotate one way (albeit with a lot of force), and at some point the mechanism makes a banging noise, and sort of jumps around (I think the gear is grinding). I digress - note that the the bearing which fails to catch the rail is connected to the core of the mechanism (the gear). For whatever reason, I think the gear is locking the arm, and keeping it from rotating or moving enough for the bearing to slide into the rail's grooves. Originally I said that when I removed a third screw, I hear a loud bang, and the window ceased to function. I believe here is when that third bearing came out of it's rail, and with great force. I imagine the bearing came out because something either went wrong with the gear, or the spring. At any rate I think Terrapin was right, and the gear disengaged. At this point, I will take the window regulator out and try to fix it. Moving stuff around while the regulator was in the door was not only tedious (trying to get my hands in such a tight space), but, at this point, improbable (or else hopelessly inefficient). I'll update later once the regulator's out.

 

The mirror on the driver side did have a bracket on the inside of the door - I felt it - but the passenger mirror does not, nor did the mirror come with one. There is a gasket that goes between the mirror and the car's body, that's it.

[Tweeds]

Update: Got the window regulator out. I mentioned previously that the handle would go one way, would make a banging noise but wouldn't turn the other way. The reason it made that banging noise was because there the driving gear that the handle itself rotates was at the end of the driven gear, causing the couple of teeth on the driving gear to forcibly lift up the driven gear, the banging coming when the driven gear snapped back in place. Point is, Terrapin was right that the drive gear was overturned. I brute forced the handle in the direction I said it wouldn't go before, which allowed the teeth of both gears to come back in contact, however this (I think) released all the tension in the spring. As you can see in the pictures, the spring came right out, in fact it fell out when I flipped the regulator over. Also, the window itself can be pushed up and down, so it is still aligned in the door, and the rollers (what I had been calling bearings) all rotate with ease. The gears now crank smoothly in both directions, only thing now is getting the spring back on.

So then, anybody know how to get the spring back on? I can tell already it's going to put up a fight - lots of tension in that thing!

[Terrapin Z]

See you will be an expert in no time. 

This is not an easy thing to explain in words. You can look up some You Tube vids on replacing a regulator to help. The FSM has some info to if you don't have one there are downloads on this forum and some other web sites too like http://www.xenonzcar.com

To get the spring back wound I disengaged the head and spin it way down, put the spring on and the push against the tension to get it back up to the gear and use the crank to get the gears engaged.  You should be able to see where the spring was in the wear marks so you get it on the right way. 

The red circle marked 'arm" looks like it is bent in this pic. perhaps when you brut forced the handle. This needs to be straightened out if it is bent, it might just be the pic angle. ???

The rollers have that washer behind them like I mentioned earlier. hopefully yours are all intact. They tear and make it hard to roll the window up or down. I have seen some repair kits on eBay for these recently. If you need them. 

I am not sure you can get this back in right without taking the window out. You could try it. Normally the regulator goes in first with most of the screws in place then the window is tilted into the door and slid back and forth to get it on the guides. I usually get the top two in first then add the small lower one in last The small green one in your pic ^. Then crank it all the way up into the closed position helping it up, and then tighten down the guides. Roll it up and down a few times making any adjustments as needed. Kind of a pain but you can get it with some patients.

[7tooZ]

Good job guys. This is a good time to look at the felt in the channels and lobe the guides. Keep at it. I have regulator out in the storage if you need photos. 

[Tweeds]

I don't think there's a bend in the arm, especially not one substantial enough to be noticed in the picture. There is a slight (and I mean very slight) contour on the arm that has an apex where the red meets the grey, but this deviation is so minute, I wouldn't have noticed unless I was dubiously inspecting for it. I think what you mentioned is correct - it's just the camera angle. Rereading what I said, I realize that it might have been misleading because there two segments where red meets grey, I'll attach a photo with a light blue line roughly at the point I was referring to. And to be clear, when you say, "spin the head way down", you mean that, with relation to the picture, the head would be towards the bottom, and more of the gear would be exposed abov?. Better yet, whereas in the picture the head is in the middle of the gear, in your proposition, the gear would be showing above the head rather than below? If that doesn't make sense, I'll take a picture of what I'm trying to describe tomorrow. 

As of now, I have completely removed the window, and everything else needed to do so. I'll see if I can't get everything back in place tomorrow.

7tooZ, by 'felt in the channels', are you referring to the bit of weather-stripping at the base of the window frame (where the window emerges from the door), the top of the door, or both?

Oh! I got the mirror on, too. They were a REAL bitch, though. Trying to thread the nut onto the bolt required a silk touch, and was a real test of my finger dexterity. There was hardly enough space to fit my hands in there (and I have long, skinny fingers to boot), and even so, I got the bolt on with the tips of my fingers. Having three hands would have helped. After all that, I found the metal bracket that goes inside the door. After doing everything to get the window out,  I found that bracket and looked at it not knowing what the hell it was, thinking I might have broken something, or found a mystery part I didn't know I had unscrewed. It wasn't a piece I'd seen in any tutorials, so I was awfully confused. It wasn't until after I spent a while getting those bolts threaded, and looking at everything I'd taken off that it dawned on me what this mystery piece was. To think, all this happened for the damned mirrors!

Edited October 23, 2020 by Tweeds
Said mirror when I meant to say window.