Z's on BAT and other places collection

[jfa.series1]

24 minutes ago, Zpenman said:

Just for future reference, what is considered to be the cutoff date for the "Series I" vehicles?

That would be late January, 1971. The second series beginning with VIN HLS30 21001 started in February, 1971.

[Zed Head]

So, the people that are defining their "Series" by the parts on the vehicle are out of line, speaking nonsensically (no offense intended to anyone).  What the "Series" designation really means is that the VIN is within a certain range.  The parts (and the build date) don't define the Series, the VIN does.  If somebody says that they have a Series 1, just ask for the VIN and you'll know.

[Patcon]

13 minutes ago, Zed Head said:

So, the people that are defining their "Series" by the parts on the vehicle are out of line, speaking nonsensically (no offense intended to anyone).  What the "Series" designation really means is that the VIN is within a certain range.  The parts (and the build date) don't define the Series, the VIN does.  If somebody says that they have a Series 1, just ask for the VIN and you'll know.

I'm not sure they're mutually exclusive unless someone has a car after #21,001 with early car parts or a car before #21,001 without them...

[Zed Head]

I'm not sure what you mean.  I was just rephrasing Carl Beck's definition.  It only uses the VIN as the identifier.  He says that Nissan defined two specific ranges of VIN and that those ranges were used to define "Series".  Nothing about features.  Just VIN.

[Zed Head]

For what it's worth, the definition might be better phrased as "the first series" of cars, and 'the second series".  What they are, not the labels that have become popular.  And unpopular.

[Patcon]

20 minutes ago, Zed Head said:

I'm not sure what you mean.  I was just rephrasing Carl Beck's definition.  It only uses the VIN as the identifier.  He says that Nissan defined two specific ranges of VIN and that those ranges were used to define "Series".  Nothing about features.  Just VIN.

I was suggesting that both methods, features and VIN, might both be effective as a way to recognize the early cars from the later cars. Provided the features changed at #21,001...

[KenFirch]

Sorry I started a Series I sh*tstorm.  LOL.  It's been erased from my vocabulary and won't happen again!  

I think for me, I'll just go with "early" 240Z and 240Z.

[Gav240z]

There is a delicious irony in the fact that those who say "series 1" "series 2" is a genuine way to refer to these cars, can't even agree on where 1 series begins and the other ends.... I think that speaks loads in itself.

The reality is these cars changed often (sometimes on month by month intervals) and this is shown in the parts manuals.

But also talking about series 1 or 2 ignores all the most exciting variants such as the Japanese market models.. eg: Fairlady Z, Fairlady 240z, Fairlady 240ZG, Fairlady Z432 and Fairlady Z432-R and where I live, far away in Australia many of the 'series 1' so called features continued well into late 71 (eg: the hand throttle).

However it's a term that simply won't die.

 

[HS30-H]

5 hours ago, Carl Beck said:

According to Nissan - they identified every 240Z sent to North America with both a vehicle identification code and  a chassis serial number. Further Nissan started a new series of chassis serial numbers for each new model and  documented that in their Factory Service Bulletins. 

The first series of chassis serial numbers started at HLS30 00006 and HS30 00003

The second series of chassis serial numbers started at HLS30 21001 and HS30 00501.

Whether you realise it or not, you are confirming the point being made against your narrative. Nissan was talking about ranges of serial numbers, not 'Series'.

Yes, we can easily see why people came up - organically - with the 'Series 1', 'Series 2' etc definitions in trying to make sense of what had happened, but it still tries to fit a square peg into a round hole. It only takes a couple of innocently asked questions - as illustrated above - to show just how blurred around the edges these definitions turn out to be. Pretty soon we get a suggestion of 'Series 1.5' and the hare is running... 

Most of this is down to people looking at the Japanese auto industry - which had its own systems and habits - through the lens of the USA. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

As ever, looking at just one variant in a family (hey, a 'Series'!) of cars is not going to tell you the whole story.    

[HS30-H]

6 hours ago, Zed Head said:

So, the people that are defining their "Series" by the parts on the vehicle are out of line, speaking nonsensically (no offense intended to anyone).

How about '...the people that are trying to define the parts on a vehicle by "Series" are out of line'..? That makes more sense, doesn't it?

6 hours ago, Zed Head said:

The parts (and the build date) don't define the Series, the VIN does.  If somebody says that they have a Series 1, just ask for the VIN and you'll know.

I'd say that - more to the point - the term 'Series' is rendered just about irrelevant if you know the 'VIN' (chassis number).

Furthermore, if I give an example of a 'VIN' (a full chassis number consisting of a prefix and a body serial number for that prefix) would anyone be able to tell me what some of the major parts attached to that particular car will be? What transmission will it have? What diff ratio will it have? What steering rack ratio will it have? What carburettors will it have? 

Let's start with 'HLS30-159035'. 

[bartsscooterservice]

12 hours ago, Gav240z said:

The reality is these cars changed often (sometimes on month by month intervals) and this is shown in the parts manuals.

 

That's not specific with Datsun, almost all brands had that in the day, because changes followed each other so rapidly. Some parts from 69/70 where left over and stuffed in a 71 with some new things together, 

I just restored a 1965 515 zundapp moped, some thing going on there, some parts from previous model 510, some parts from later model 517 allready.

My 70 Mustang the same, it shares things from a 69, but not everything

[Zed Head]

Big picture wise, people can categorize the years and styles in any way they want.  Some would argue that calling them Z's is offensive.  Too informal!  Insulting!