Z's on BAT and other places collection

[jfa.series1]

18 hours ago, Zed Head said:

I'm not sure what you mean.  I was just rephrasing Carl Beck's definition.  It only uses the VIN as the identifier.  He says that Nissan defined two specific ranges of VIN and that those ranges were used to define "Series".  Nothing about features.  Just VIN.

Guess I need to change my handle to jfa.15320! 😄

[Carl Beck]

15 hours ago, Gav240z said:

The reality is these cars changed often (sometimes on month by month intervals) and this is shown in the parts manuals.

 

 

[Carl Beck]

16 hours ago, Gav240z said:

The reality is these cars changed often (sometimes on month by month intervals) and this is shown in the parts manuals.

 

We should not conflate the two distinctly different actions related to changing a specific Part within a Model, and changing the Model.

Changing a part and/or associated Part Number within a currently produced Model can be done for many reasons. The part may have been improved but retains the same form, fit and function. The part supplier may have been changed. A newer part with the same form, fit and function can supersede an older part number on an older model to consolidate or replenish Service & Repair parts inventory  None of these individual part changes, change the current Model.

 

Manufactures change the Model, as they introduce the next year’s New and Improved Model. When Nissan changed their Model, they issued Technical Service Bulletins documenting what changes they made between the Old  and the New model.  With the introduction of new model, they issued Introductory Service Bulletins, New Technical Service Manuals in support of the new model and updated Technician Training Materials.

[HS30-H]

On 2/17/2024 at 6:46 AM, HS30-H said:

Furthermore, if I give an example of a 'VIN' (a full chassis number consisting of a prefix and a body serial number for that prefix) would anyone be able to tell me what some of the major parts attached to that particular car will be? What transmission will it have? What diff ratio will it have? What steering rack ratio will it have? What carburettors will it have? 

Let's start with 'HLS30-159035'. 

No takers so far, then? 

 

[HS30-H]

On 2/17/2024 at 8:25 PM, Carl Beck said:

 

We should not conflate the two distinctly different actions related to changing a specific Part within a Model, and changing the Model.

Changing a part and/or associated Part Number within a currently produced Model can be done for many reasons. The part may have been improved but retains the same form, fit and function. The part supplier may have been changed. A newer part with the same form, fit and function can supersede an older part number on an older model to consolidate or replenish Service & Repair parts inventory  None of these individual part changes, change the current Model.

 

Manufactures change the Model, as they introduce the next year’s New and Improved Model. When Nissan changed their Model, they issued Technical Service Bulletins documenting what changes they made between the Old  and the New model.  With the introduction of new model, they issued Introductory Service Bulletins, New Technical Service Manuals in support of the new model and updated Technician Training Materials.

I don't see what any of this has to do with the 'Series' discussion. The conversation was about the term 'Series' being used to define content and specs when - clearly - it isn't suitable for that purpose. Now we have the term 'Model' being thrown into the mix. 

The crux of the posts over the last few days was that terms such as 'Series 1' and 'Series 2' etc are being used as though they can define details on cars which were undergoing rolling changes. Yes, Nissan gave ranges of body serial numbers for specific prefixes as cut-offs for major changes, but applying 'Series 1' etc to them can be misleading.

Your own writings on zhome.com link 'Series' numbers and ranges of chassis numbers to spec and equipment changes for 'HLS30' prefixed body serial numbers when that prefix was not unique to the variant you are applying them to. 

You are also calling the 'HLS30' a 'Model'. How can it be a 'Model'?  

[bartsscooterservice]

On 2/17/2024 at 12:13 AM, HS30-H said:

With what?

'Series' - according to Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. Japan - is 'S30'.

Anything else is just America talking to itself.

 

It does say " MODEL " S30 Series though 😆

[HS30-H]

3 hours ago, bartsscooterservice said:

It does say " MODEL " S30 Series though 😆

Yes, it does indeed.

And I think it has been kidnapped, along with 'Series'. 

[Carl Beck]

On 2/19/2024 at 1:20 PM, HS30-H said:

I don't see what any of this has to do with the 'Series' discussion. The conversation was about the term 'Series' being used to define content and specs when - clearly - it isn't suitable for that purpose. Now we have the term 'Model' being thrown into the mix. 

....snipped..cjb.....

and

You are also calling the 'HLS30' a 'Model'. How can it be a 'Model'?  

I do not believe that anyone so far has actually referred specifically (intentionally) to the Series as "defining content and specifications" of any specific model. You are correct, it doesn’t nor is it intended to. It is actually intended to be a specific starting point for finding the content and spec’s for a specific model. 

A definition of “series”:   a number of things, events, or people of a similar kind or related nature coming one after another.  So if “S30” is the name of a series, there has to be more than one model in that Series.(otherwise it isn’t a “series”)

 

So what comprises the "S30 Series" of Nissan Sports Models 1969 through 1973?

Domestic Models
 S30S, S30,  PS30, PS30-SB. HS30
and
Export Models
 HS30,  HLS30 

To find all the content and specifications for any specific Model in the S30 Series, you have to direct your attention to the specific technical documents provided by Nissan for that specific model. 

 

If say you have HLS30 159035 - you may need the 1973 Factory Service Manual as well as the associated Factory Service Bulletins, and a Parts Catalog that included the 1973 models. So the complete VIN gives you the starting point. 

 

You have to know the specific model, before you can find all the information published about it.

 

Series I Datsun 240Z - you need the 1970 Factory Service Manual etc.

Series II Datsun 240Z - you need the 1971 Factory Service Manual etc.

 

Mr. Uemura has an interesting discussion in his Book related to Models.
From Mr. Uemura’s description:
Chapter 3. Vehicle Type, Cost, and Weight
page 43. (summary..cjb)
Domestic Specification
"In the end, we established a number
of models, in same way as our general passenger cars.”
I. Standard Specification Model (S30-S)
II. Luxurious Specification Model (S30)
III. High-speed Specification Model (PS30)
IV. Race Specification Model (PS30-SB)

Export Specification:
Three types of models were available for export specifications: the North
American specification (HLS30-U), the left-hand drive specification for general
export (HLS30), and the right-hand drive specification for general export (HS30).
The first priority was given to the development of the vehicle for North America,
which was the largest market.

 

Fundamentally, the general export specification vehicle was the same as that
of the North American specification, but some safety and emissions equipment
were omitted.

 

https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=Datsun+240Z

[Carl Beck]

This is interesting...

Going to Auction - read the article..

https://www.thedrive.com/news/the-porsche-959-nissan-bought-to-engineer-the-r32-gt-r-is-going-to-auction?utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social

 

 

[HS30-H]

1 hour ago, Carl Beck said:

I do not believe that anyone so far has actually referred specifically (intentionally) to the Series as "defining content and specifications" of any specific model. You are correct, it doesn’t nor is it intended to. It is actually intended to be a specific starting point for finding the content and spec’s for a specific model. 

You're still making it sound as though these 'Series 1' etc terms are somehow official. Who has agreed to their definitions? Who is saying that they are a "starting point"?

Here's a screenshot of a section from a page on your zhome.com site where no less than three of these 'Series' definitions pop up within the same production year of 1971. We have chassis numbers ('VIN') given as end and start dates for lists of new equipment and spec changes, as well as 'Model Year' added into the mix.

Clearly, 'Series' numbers are being linked to content:

   

 

1 hour ago, Carl Beck said:

A definition of “series”:   a number of things, events, or people of a similar kind or related nature coming one after another.  So if “S30” is the name of a series, there has to be more than one model in that Series.(otherwise it isn’t a “series”)

 

A point I have made many times. For many years the USA spec 'Datsun 240Z' was presented to us as though it were a single child and that the other contemporary variants in the S30-series were insignificant afterthoughts. Sound familiar?

 

1 hour ago, Carl Beck said:

To find all the content and specifications for any specific Model in the S30 Series, you have to direct your attention to the specific technical documents provided by Nissan for that specific model. 

 

If say you have HLS30 159035 - you may need the 1973 Factory Service Manual as well as the associated Factory Service Bulletins, and a Parts Catalog that included the 1973 models. So the complete VIN gives you the starting point. 

 

You have to know the specific model, before you can find all the information published about it.

 

Series I Datsun 240Z - you need the 1970 Factory Service Manual etc.

Series II Datsun 240Z - you need the 1971 Factory Service Manual etc.

 

So 'Series 1' and 'Series 2' etc are shown - QED - to be inaccurate, ill-defined and - finally - superfluous terms, right? What's really important are the full chassis number, the exact market variant/sub-variant (a suffix becomes handy here) and the production date. Then we consult the factory literature. 

 

1 hour ago, Carl Beck said:

Mr. Uemura has an interesting discussion in his Book related to Models.

He does indeed.

1 hour ago, Carl Beck said:

Export Specification:
Three types of models were available for export specifications: the North
American specification (HLS30-U), the left-hand drive specification for general
export (HLS30), and the right-hand drive specification for general export (HS30).
The first priority was given to the development of the vehicle for North America,
which was the largest market.

 

Aha. I see why you've chosen to post that.

You might like to note that in Uemura san's original Japanese language book - not the 'translated' version via Motomura san - he made it clear that the North American market 'HLS30-U' was the priority among the Export Specification S30-series variants (quite obviously, as it was the market with the greatest potential for volume sales) and that the priority was largely about putting together a variant which met the target selling price whilst also satisfying MVSS regulations. You might also like to note that - at that point - the North American market variant was intended to use the L16 four cylinder engine whilst the L20 six was intended for the Japanese market, to be joined by the GR8B 'S20'. No L24 at that point.

It would be wise - not to mention scholarly - for us to tread carefully around the word 'priority' when discussing a family of variants in a 'Series', lest we find ourselves taking it to mean something more than was intended...   

[kats]

5 hours ago, HS30-H said:

You might like to note that in Uemura san's original Japanese language book - not the 'translated' version via Motomura san - he made it clear that the North American market 'HLS30-U' was the priority among the Export Specification S30-series variants 

Hi Alan, I read it just like you read. Japanese people write it like that and read it like that.

Kats

[kats]

I want to explain  what Uemura san is saying about our cars but I can’t do it in English. Motomura san did great job and he is the perfect interpreter for the book but no one can tell better than Uemura san does. 
With my poor English skills, but I can see some words need to have deeper additional explanation for English speakers to understand as much as what Uemura san originally intended. 
 

Kats