Z's on BAT and other places collection

[bartsscooterservice]

10 hours ago, Carl Beck said:

 

Series I Datsun 240Z - you need the 1970 Factory Service Manual etc.

Series II Datsun 240Z - you need the 1971 Factory Service Manual etc.

 

The service manuals are dated by year and domestic or export MODEL, the series term on the front is only to determine S30 serie(S ! )

I agree that $^!# is confusing, got me to in the beginning. I'm not here to fight who is right or not wright lol. If you want to call it a series 1 go ahead.

It's funny i'm now about 15 years into restoring classic cars ( US and JDM ) and bikes to ) , what I find is that basically on ALL cars and bikes of that time period, changes through the years and even months occured quickly, because quickly changing goverment regulations etc. So every kind of classic club has it's own way of seperating changes throughout the years. Some became a myth, some are true.

 

Edited February 21 by bartsscooterservice

[HS30-H]

10 hours ago, Carl Beck said:

Mr. Uemura has an interesting discussion in his Book related to Models.
From Mr. Uemura’s description:
Chapter 3. Vehicle Type, Cost, and Weight
page 43. (summary..cjb)
Domestic Specification
"In the end, we established a number
of models, in same way as our general passenger cars.”
I. Standard Specification Model (S30-S)
II. Luxurious Specification Model (S30)
III. High-speed Specification Model (PS30)
IV. Race Specification Model (PS30-SB)

Export Specification:
Three types of models were available for export specifications: the North
American specification (HLS30-U), the left-hand drive specification for general
export (HLS30), and the right-hand drive specification for general export (HS30).

I'm always curious as to whether you had any Road To Damascus type conversion of beliefs when you saw Uemura san's texts for the first time?

I'm thinking of the great contrast between the story of how he and his colleagues set out to create a 'family' of variants for the S30-series which would be revealed to the world in late 1969 (S30, S30-S, PS30, PS30-SB, HLS30, HLS30-U and HS30) and your own take on the subject, as illustrated in the past on this very forum, in posts like these:

Quote

The Fairlady Z's are interesting and they allowed Nissan to sell a few more cars in their home market - but your assertion that they were "as important", "as significant" or evenly weighted in the design consideration of the Z - are simply - well - your opinion. However I would suggest that your opinion is not based on any real facts nor sound logic.

Quote

Yes, the total story of the Z would have to include a short chapter about all the various minor incarnations for nitch markets. However if you think they are "as important", "as significant" as the HLS30 - - then I have to believe you have missed the real "Story Of The Z Car".

Quote

Everything about the history of the Z Car seems to prove it was "centered" solely around the USA market.

Quote

The real story of the Z Car - is carried by the Datsun 240-Z - as specified, as designed, as built for the American market.

Kind of ironic to see your name credited as 'Editor' on the translated version of Uemura san's book, but I guess that old "you are Daddy's one and only child" story which started at the Pierre Hotel on 22nd October 1969 is difficult to row back on.

You do have a copy of the original Japanese language 'Fairlady Z Kaihatsu no Kiroku' book, I hope? 

 

[Carl Beck]

11 hours ago, kats said:

I want to explain  what Uemura san is saying about our cars but I can’t do it in English. Motomura san did great job and he is the perfect interpreter for the book but no one can tell better than Uemura san does. 
With my poor English skills, but I can see some words need to have deeper additional explanation for English speakers to understand as much as what Uemura san originally intended. 
 

Kats
 

 

Hi Kats:

I think Mr. Uemura and his team's pride and passion for their work comes though even in the translated story. Mr. Motomura had the same feelings. 

 

Talking personally to someone about an experience is one thing, where you have not only words, but tone, body language and immediate feed back from the listener. Capturing the perfect words to convey that emotional attachment in writing is quite a different task. To an extent that is why some people are Literature Majors / Best Selling Authors and others are Science & Math Majors.

 

In spit of the fact that it is difficult for hard nosed engineers and craftsmen driven by science, technology and mathematics to write a report that also conveys their emotions;  I personally felt that Mr. Uemura and Mr. Motomura did an excellent job.  Everyone should read the story for themselves, however it was easy for even me to recognize the pride and emotional motivations helping to drive their work.

 

[HS30-H]

3 hours ago, Carl Beck said:

I think Mr. Uemura and his team's pride and passion for their work comes though even in the translated story. Mr. Motomura had the same feelings. 

Unfortunately the decision was taken - I don't know by whom - to alter the text in order to make it more palatable to a (presumably?) American audience in the English language version. There are some inexplicable omissions too.

Changing 'Fairlady Z' to 'Datsun 240Z' in the title and the text is not a translation. The sense in which Uemura san uses the term 'Fairlady Z' encompasses the whole family of variants in the 'Maru Z' project on which he and his colleagues were working from 1966 through 1969 and beyond. Substituting 'Datsun 240Z' does not. Indeed, it renders some parts of the text illogical and subverts the original intention. It turns an inclusive into a divisive.

It also serves to reinforce the mistruth of statements such as "The real story of the Z Car - is carried by the Datsun 240-Z - as specified, as designed, as built for the American market" when Uemura san's original text made it clear that this was not the case. Ironic isn't it?

 

 

[Patcon]

This discussion might fit better in a different thread. Not the BAT one..

 

[Zed Head]

"Black Pearl"!

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1978-datsun-280z-162/

[HS30-H]

7 hours ago, Patcon said:

This discussion might fit better in a different thread. Not the BAT one..

 

I agree. I think thread-drift is almost inevitable and when a digression becomes big enough it can be worth splitting it off into its own thread.

How about it @Mike?

[Carl Beck]

On 2/21/2024 at 5:07 AM, HS30-H said:

I'm always curious as to whether you had any Road To Damascus type conversion of beliefs when you saw Uemura san's texts for the first time?

As to a great change or reversal of beliefs, I have to say no. Having spent the better part of 30 years working in the Engineering Design environment of large corp. structures,  Mr. Uemura’s story made me feel right at home.

 

On 2/21/2024 at 5:07 AM, HS30-H said:

I'm thinking of the great contrast between the story of how he and his colleagues set out to create a 'family' of variants for the S30-series which would be revealed to the world in late 1969.....(snipped..cjb)

I see both Mr. Uemura and his team, as well as Mr. Matsuo and his team in quite a different light than the one you portray.  Much more along the lines of the actual work environment; -  Take Management Direction, Salute, and Execute. Design A New and More Modern Sports Car For Nissan To Sell.

 

From Mr. Uemura’s story, I see the engineering development team excited and happy to play a part in the development of A New Sports Car that would be put into production. The only conceivable “family” of variants I could think of were created by the Domestic and Export Sales Departments. They had more to do with the definition and range of models, with standard & optional equipment that would comprise the Model Line at the Dealerships.

Some quotes from Chapters 2 - Before Development of the Datsun 240Z & 3 - Development of The Datsun 240Z.

"At that time, the Styling Section, looking for a design for the new sports car, started preparing
for developing the new sports car by building some clay models, including both open and
closed models of two-seater cars.

The executives, however, did not immediately give their approval for developing the new sports
car. Then-president Katsuji Kawamata had a consistent belief: “A sports car is not for making
profits but to act as a showcase for our company.” I think that he thought the company did not
have to take this sort of risk, because Nissan already had two sports car models: the Datsun
Sports and the Silvia.

On the other hand, there was a strong desire for a new model in the US market, the Datsun
Sports’ main market. This was due to the large number of complaints regarding the existing
Datsun Sports, which we were asked to eliminate by bringing out a new model.

 

In Chapter 3 - Development of the Datsun 240Z
for example: Mr. Uemura writes

"In April 1967, Hajime Suitsu, the Chief Engineer, held a talk with the leaders of the
Engineering Department who controlled the production, and they came up with the
development course of the new sports car, as follows:

a) Development shall be completed in time for shipment in August 1969.
b) The retail price in North America shall be 2,546 dollars.
c) The car shall be profitable in North America.
d) The initial cost shall be estimated on the assumption that 1,000 units will be
produced in a month and the cost will be amortized over two years.
e) The capacities of the facility shall be 2,000 units per month.
f) The base model shall be equipped with a 1600 cc four-cylinder engine.
g) As a high-performance specification model, a vehicle equipped with a 2000 cc
six-cylinder engine shall be added.
h) The new model shall be produced by Nissan Shatai, as with the current
Datsun Sports.

While the Domestic Sales Department desired a performance car that could compete with the Toyota 2000GT in terms of performance, this set out the basic policy that a profitable new model mainly targeted for the North America market, rather than for hardcore car fans, would be developed.

On June 8, 1967, the first liaison meeting for the next-generation sports car was held.
A total of about 20 people from the design sections and the modeling, trial production,
testing, body and outfitting departments, as well as those from Nissan Shatai who
were in charge of development and production were called in for this meeting. They
were given the fundamental plan by Suitsu, and the specifications and the layout chart were distributed. In this meeting, he spoke to them, saying, “We will develop three types for this model: a two-seater coupe, a two-seater convertible, and a 2+2 coupe, and give first priority to the two-seater coupe. We would like to make an unconventional car that leads the sports car market by aiming at a top speed of at least 124 mph
(200 km).” This served as the formal kick-off in the Design Department. 

 

The model was developed following a rigid schedule. For example, the drawings of bulky parts
(cast, forged, and stamped parts) had to be released by the end of July, and the first
prototype vehicle be completed by the end of November. Suitsu gave us a pep talk,
saying, “If it’s difficult to meet a deadline, don’t struggle with it alone. Talk with me
and we will hammer out ways to deal with it.”

- end quotes - - - 
 

The Book was priced at a very low price point - so every enthusiast could easily afford to enjoy it.

https://www.lulu.com/search?page=1&q=Datsun+240Z&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00

[HS30-H]

1 hour ago, Carl Beck said:

As to a great change or reversal of beliefs, I have to say no.

You are - at least - consistent. A quality you share with The Flat Earth Society.

1 hour ago, Carl Beck said:

Some quotes from Chapters 2 - Before Development of the Datsun 240Z & 3 - Development of The Datsun 240Z.

A further example of EXACTLY what I have been pointing out. Where does 'Datsun 240Z' come from? You are either in denial or you have not even seen the original. Which is it?

Chapter 2 title in original: "Fairlady Z no kaihatsu ni itaru made" (tr: 'Leading up to the development of the Fairlady Z'). 

Chapter 3 title in original: "Fairlady Z no kaihatsu" (tr: 'Development of the Fairlady Z').

You quote from the 'translated' English language version as though the original Japanese version doesn't exist. I'll keep saying it, the English language version is mis-translated to the level of Bowdlerization. Changing the all-encompassing 'Fairlady Z', 'Maru Z' and 'Z' terms that Uemura san uses to 'Datsun 240Z' completely subverts his original intention. I believe you had a hand in that. You have form.  

 

Even so, anybody who reads the English language version should easily see that Uemura san and his engineering team - also Matsuo san and his styling team - were engaged to design, engineer and develop a family of Domestic and Export market variants. The family of variants is mentioned time and time again. These processes took place contemporaneously, with engineering and design consideration for each variant having an impact on the other variants in the family. Uemura san's list of the 5 Chassis Test cars and the 11 Primary Prototype cars clearly show this. I think any engineer worth his salt would understand what this process involves. You simply cannot focus on one particular variant and treat the others as afterthoughts.

One more thing. Uemura san includes a quote of some paragraphs from Teiichi Hara's own book (recommended, BTW). Hara san was manager of the First Design Department at Nissan and Uemura san quotes Hara san because he relates a KEY stage in Nissan's Go/No Go stage of the Maru Z project. Without passing this stage, Nissan's senior management simply would not have given clearance for the engineering and styling work to proceed. What was the deciding factor?

The deciding factor was the inclusion of the road-going version of the Prince GR8 twin cam engine (the Nissan S20 two litre 24v twin cam six) as an option in the engineering and styling of the Maru Z project. Hara san described this as "A complete victory". Without it, they would not have got the go-ahead for the whole family of variants. It is a very revealing anecdote, the kind that automotive journalists and marque/model scholars set great store by.

Will we ever read about this on zhome.com? I'm not holding my breath...  

[HS30-H]

3 hours ago, Carl Beck said:

As to a great change or reversal of beliefs, I have to say no. Having spent the better part of 30 years working in the Engineering Design environment of large corp. structures,  Mr. Uemura’s story made me feel right at home.

In light of Uemura san's book, do you still feel "right at home" with this quote then?

 

Quote

Everything about the history of the Z Car seems to prove it was "centered" solely around the USA market.

 

...because it was wrong when you originally wrote it on this forum and it is still wrong today.   

[Zed Head]

8 hours ago, HS30-H said:

I agree. I think thread-drift is almost inevitable and when a digression becomes big enough it can be worth splitting it off into its own thread.

How about it @Mike?

You can start your own new thread and link to the various posts here.  You have that power.

Frankly, I'm starting to feel embarassed for you guys.  The "Flat-Earth Society" insult is an obvious sign that the discussion has degraded.  There are no winners when things get this bad.  Why not just stop posting?  At least if you start a new thread we can all use the Ignore function of the forum so we don't have to see it.

[Yarb]

Please exchange email accounts and handle it privately.