Hagerty: Z the new 911?

[NVZEE]

https://www.hagerty.com/media/market-trends/nissan-z-next-911

[dutchzcarguy]

Interesting.. i probably restored the right car? a increase of value of 86% in one year??  My idea to restore a 280zx was to have a car that drives very nice, is big enough for my 6 foot 6 and does not get stolen because they are not very valuable... i guess that last point i mentioned no longer applies.. pff..😕

[Namerow]

I read the Hagerty article this morning.  The author tries to argue that younger buyers aren't interested in buying Porsches because they identify more with Japanese brands.  There may be a small element of truth to that, I think it's more about affordability. 

I also didn't see anything in the author's pricing survey that surprised me very much.  Good 240Z's in the US$30K-$40K range sounds about right to me.  Prices may have gone up over the past 10 years, but they haven't exactly exploded.  I think it comes down to production volumes.  Nissan made a lot of Z's between 1969 and 1978.  Maybe 10 times the production volume for 911's at Porsche?

Consider this:  A brand-new 240Z cost about US$3,400 in the early 1970's.  Most consumer prices have gone up by a factor of 10 over the ensuing 50 years, so it could be argued that the car sold for the equivalent of about $35,000* in 2021 dollars.  Which is about what a decent restored Z will cost you right now.  Not sure the same can be said for an early 1970's Porsche 911 (which sold for around $6K when new, IIRC).

(* Becomes $50K after you add $15K for front and side air bags, DOHC/CVVT/EFI engine, full computer control, comprehensive emissions control equipment, front/side/rear-impact and roll-over structures, leather, modern lighting, galvanized steel body panels, sound-deadening, contemporary electronics and sound system).

[dutchzcarguy]

20 hours ago, Namerow said:

I think it comes down to production volumes.  Nissan made a lot of Z's

Yes they made a lot !!  of them!!  But even here in europe they got crushed after it became a rustbucket or after a crash, so few were left and those are the cars we drive today..  (I got my 240z also back from the death after the floor was "restored"in california..  oh Man!!  there was 2mm fat heavy steel in the floor welded on some spots and clayed with silicone or something with fibreglass in it it was a mess.. i made a complete new bottom with good beams and all in it.. Now it needs another restore after 22 years.. (more the outside..))

Porsches did'nt go into the crusher.. because IT WAS A PORSCHE! It survived under a tarp and later restored..

[Namerow]

1 hour ago, dutchzcarguy said:

Porsches did'nt go into the crusher.. because IT WAS A PORSCHE! It survived under a tarp and later restored.

Different customer demographic, for sure.  Both vehicles rusted out at the same (rapid) rate, though*.  As for the proportion of each marque's new-vehicle numbers written off from collision damage, that would be an interesting statistic to know.  We could speculate, but actual numbers would be better.  Might make a good undergraduate thesis topic for somebody enrolled in Business with a minor in Sociology.  

(* Kudos to Porsche for eventually becoming one of the first in the industry to introduce galvanized panels into the construction of their products.) 

[Tweeds]

As a Millennial/Gen-Z (born in 1998), the original draw to the s30 was it's classic look and history, but in the end, the main reason I bought it was the affordability, as Namerow said. Had the z been more expensive, it would have been unrealistically out of my price range. Buying parts for the car is relatively inexpensive, and so is the up front cost of the car itself. Slap in the ease of maintenance and repair, and it's a very practical car to buy as far as classics go. That being said, an old 911 is, coincidentally, my 'dream' car. However, to buy one and drive it with regularity would be painfully expensive and financially irresponsible, presuming I even had the money to buy one in the first place. But, if z's and 911's cost the same, I'd have gotten a 911. However, they don't so I didn't. Point is, a 911 is way too far outside my ages' price range, but a z isn't - with a little bit of saving and some vigilant searching, you can definitely find one. Put it this way, you can get a decent s30 for around or less than the price of a new car, so if you've got a knack for classics, it's a good option. Then, you can save up some more money and decide whether you want to buy a house... or a 911... 

[NVZEE]

More discussion from Hagerty:

https://www.hagerty.com/media/market-trends/japans-collector-cars-climbing

[Av8ferg]

Gents, while surprised at this article when you look at all the forces at play it begins to paint a clear picture.  Classic cars are really hot right now and it’s been going on for awhile and it’s moving through various models and makes.  The price of Supra’s, RX-7s and so many other cars are in the ludicrous levels.  First it was the 240 then 280 and now the ZX.  So here’s what I think is happening, because this is happening more than just classic cars.  He’s my break down of all the forces at play. 

1. COVID made people sitting at home get the desire to start a new hobby….classic cars is a popular one.   

2. The massive expansion of the money supply,  the Federal Reserve has been on a printing spree.  The machines are running 24/7.  The US and printed 25% of the dollars in existence in the past 12 months.  More dollars chasing less supply.

3. Inflation (partly due to the above).  Prices in May climbed to record levels, and the fed has made it clear…printing will continue at rate of 120 billion a month for the foreseeable future and no rise or interest rates until maybe 2023.   
 

4. Classic cars are the number 2 best investment next to rare Whiskey.  People want a place to put their money where is will be worth more next year than this year.  So people are buying classics.  Why leave month in the bank where it gets no interest and is worth much less the next year.  I bought my 280z in Dec 2017 for  $3700.  Had I done nothing to the car I believe I could sell it today within a week for 2x what I paid.  
 

5.  New and used cars are crazy expensive right now due to serious supply issues.  I bought a new 2021 Suburban last Nov and paid 7k under sticker.  When I went to sell  in my 2017 Outback then I was offered $17,200 by Carmax.  Last week Carmax offered me 22k   Two days ago I received and email from the dealership I bought the Suburban from.  They said they wanted to buy back my Suburban.  I called and they offered me MSRP, unseen . That’s a 7k gain with 8,000 miles and 6 months old, but I’m not selling,  In what world we’ve ever seen has that happened,  I went online to see what’s happened and read that dealerships ware selling above MSRP.  For the Suburban it’s 4K-8k above MSRP.   
 

Everything we buy is going up and that’s impacting everything from furniture to classic cars. Gas prices have almost doubled since the election and food and lumber prices are way up  Has anyone tried to buy appliances, furniture or a boat recently.  Don’t….you won’t find many.  I’ve been waiting since Jan for outdoor furniture.

So you have to look at it from what the dollars purchasing power is not the actual number.  That’s part of the problem, but here’s the really reason……. Class Z’s are awesome cars and the world is finally recognizing it….something we all already knew.  So 20% is rising prices all around and 80% but the Z is a beautiful, fantastic car.  

 

 

 

[Reptoid Overlords]

The days of cheap anything are pretty much over.  Add $100 when estimating cost for Z parts.

[Patcon]

I agree with everything the Aviator said ^^^^^

[AZDatsun]

Yeah I agree except our gas has only gone up about 10 cents not double since the election 

[Tweeds]

3 hours ago, Av8ferg said:

You have to look at it from what the dollars purchasing power is not the actual number.  That’s part of the problem, but here’s the really reason……. Class Z’s are awesome cars and the world is finally recognizing it….something we all already knew.  So 20% is rising prices all around and 80% but the Z is a beautiful, fantastic car.  

So, maybe they are the new 911... in a way, at least. Not too long ago, I heard someone say something to the effect of, "Wow, look at that old Porsche!" about my z. Evidently that guy thought it was a 911!