Hatch alignment

[Patcon]

One thing is, the hatch may need to sit slightly higher then it does now. It will be close to the line it should be on but not perfect. The hatch could go forward a little more to line up better, but I have found it very difficult to get it right all the way around. 

Like grannyknot said, the cars weren't perfect right off the line. I am sure well restored cars are much smoother, straighter and better gapped than factory cars were.

[qz16]

the problem is that there is no more vertical adjustment, using the bolts that hold the hinge to the body.  I suppose I could make the adjustment hole larger.  do you have a good way to do that or should I just use a drill or a round file?

[Patcon]

Something controllable. Dremel, round file, low speed die grinder

[Racer X]

Just saw this and read through it.

The first question that comes to mind is, why didn’t you check and adjust the panels, doors and hatch before you painted the car? Panel and door fitment should be done during the bodywork phase of a restoration.

Now you have what looks like some serious mismatches. The hatch looks longer than the opening, hanging off the back of the car by a considerable margin.

Did the quarter panels get replaced?

 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Racer X

[qz16]

Thank you for your comment. 

 

 

 

 

[Zed Head]

I see the same thing as RacerX about the length of the hatch, or length of the car itself.  Just doesn't look possible to get the front gap right and have the back edge match the back of the body.  It is not possible.  Looks like the back end of the car has been worked on and it's not right now.  And it's not just the center of the hatch lid, the sides look right at the front corners, but the length of the side rails is too long for the car.  The car is too short.

Sorry to be so brutal.

These two things cannot coexist.

[Roberts280Z]

I just saw this thread, and will be anxiously watching it.  I'm just slightly behind you with my 280z.  I had to fab a lot of patches on the liftgate itself, and to the rear of the right quarter, and to the lip across the top and right side.  I'm just now carefully attaching the new weatherstrip (which caused much of the rusting in the first place).  I'll try to help as soon as I get the last of the weatherstrip on and try to mount the liftgate.

[Patcon]

I have found it very difficult to get this right. I found that my hatch seemed too long also. I just got it back into the shop. So I will try to make some pictures this weekend

[qz16]

Pictures can be deceiving.  It's helpful to know how they were taken, and what the corresponding adjustments were when they were taken.  For example it is easy to jump to the conclusion that the hatch extends far beyond the fender.  In one of my posts I said: “I do not have the latch hardware installed so the hatch is not shown fully closed.” Because the hatch is not fully closed and because of the angle that the picture was taken the rear edge of the hatch  looks far worse than it is in reality.  Will it be perfect when I am done – I doubt it.  But the hatch rear edge will be close enough to matching the rear fender edge to satisfy most folks, at least in my house.

zedhead - Don’t worry about being brutal.  I will take positive advice from anyone whenever it is offered.  I am just trying to give the “bucket” my best effort, sometimes it is an iterative process.  

 This forum has been a tremendous help to me.  I have tried to post items that might help the next guy avoid a few problems or solve a problem faster than he/she might otherwise. For example I was unaware that the hatch lift strut actually raises the hatch vertically, when in the open position.  I think this might help the next guy.
 

Anyway, I have the parts coming that I need for a right side hatch strut.  This will allow me to prove/disprove that my issue can be resolved with a very slight vertical movement in the hatch open position.  Once I can close the hatch without worrying about the paint I can do the trial and error adjustments for the gaps.  I will post pictures, bad or good.  Some can trash the effort, and I am sure that some will help me figure out how to improve it.  Once I get the hatch right with the additional strut I can decide whether I want to get the vertical movement with the strut or by opening up the adjustment holes for the hinge.  I put this off because I dread making those holes larger, and because I still think introducing the 2^nd strut with the 260z was an upgrade, certainly not just for aesthetics. On the other hand, part of me thinks that the 240z had one strut and the bucket is a 240z so it should have one strut.

 

Roberts280z – You have a little more extensive work on your project than was needed on mine.  The bottom of my hatch had the typical rust issues and I had some welding, patching and metal filling to do on it.  The left side of the bucket was fairly clean, the right side had a lot of work in the dogleg area and some in the lower quarter.  I could not find much help via the forums to align the hatch, but I am hopeful that this thread will ultimately turn into a procedure/process that helps others do it faster and better.  I look forward to your comments – thanks.  Let me know if you need a measurement.

 

Patcon & Grannyknot– As always, I appreciate your assistance – thanks.

 

Thanks to all for your help.

[Racer X]

2 hours ago, qz16 said:

 

Pictures can be deceiving.  It's helpful to know how they were taken, and what the corresponding adjustments were when they were taken.  For example it is easy to jump to the conclusion that the hatch extends far beyond the fender.  In one of my posts I said: “I do not have the latch hardware installed so the hatch is not shown fully closed.” Because the hatch is not fully closed and because of the angle that the picture was taken the rear edge of the hatch  looks far worse than it is in reality.  Will it be perfect when I am done – I doubt it.  But the hatch rear edge will be close enough to matching the rear fender edge to satisfy most folks, at least in my house.

zedhead - Don’t worry about being brutal.  I will take positive advice from anyone whenever it is offered.  I am just trying to give the “bucket” my best effort, sometimes it is an iterative process.  

 This forum has been a tremendous help to me.  I have tried to post items that might help the next guy avoid a few problems or solve a problem faster than he/she might otherwise. For example I was unaware that the hatch lift strut actually raises the hatch vertically, when in the open position.  I think this might help the next guy.
 

Anyway, I have the parts coming that I need for a right side hatch strut.  This will allow me to prove/disprove that my issue can be resolved with a very slight vertical movement in the hatch open position.  Once I can close the hatch without worrying about the paint I can do the trial and error adjustments for the gaps.  I will post pictures, bad or good.  Some can trash the effort, and I am sure that some will help me figure out how to improve it.  Once I get the hatch right with the additional strut I can decide whether I want to get the vertical movement with the strut or by opening up the adjustment holes for the hinge.  I put this off because I dread making those holes larger, and because I still think introducing the 2^nd strut with the 260z was an upgrade, certainly not just for aesthetics. On the other hand, part of me thinks that the 240z had one strut and the bucket is a 240z so it should have one strut.

 

Roberts280z – You have a little more extensive work on your project than was needed on mine.  The bottom of my hatch had the typical rust issues and I had some welding, patching and metal filling to do on it.  The left side of the bucket was fairly clean, the right side had a lot of work in the dogleg area and some in the lower quarter.  I could not find much help via the forums to align the hatch, but I am hopeful that this thread will ultimately turn into a procedure/process that helps others do it faster and better.  I look forward to your comments – thanks.  Let me know if you need a measurement.

 

Patcon & Grannyknot– As always, I appreciate your assistance – thanks.

 

Thanks to all for your help.

I feel that adding a strut to the right side will not correct the problem.

This is because the problem isn’t where the hatch is while open, the problem is where it is when closed (or in the closed position since you don’t have the latch hardware installed yet).

You didn’t answer my question about the quarter panels. 
 

I also would be interested to know, is this hatch original to the car?

Did you replace or repair any of the structure around the hatch opening ?

How about the panel that the latch attaches to above the taillight support structure?

If this is the original hatch, and the opening hasn’t been changed in any way, then the only change has been the replacement of the hinges.

So, if that is the case, swap the new hinges out for the original ones, including any shims that may have been in the stack up (you did document what was there when you took it apart, right?). Then see if you still have a fitment issue.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Racer X

[cgsheen1]

Q,

Take that hatch off and don't put it back in until you have the glass and trim installed. Seriously. You may think it's better to fit and adjust with the glass removed, it's not.

Adding right side struts are a very good idea for a 240Z, but I'll be very surprised if that's the answer to your issue.

I'd look at the hinges again, angle of the hinge mount to the body, or angle of the flanges on the hatch itself. Have the welds broken on the hatch flanges on either side - or have they been re-welded at some point? (That issue came up not long ago at the shop...)

I would want the actual hinge (the point that rotates) to come up in the cavity - which would mean rolling the top of the bracket rearward and the bottom of the bracket close to the body (shimming the top, keeping the bottom flush against the body)).

My hinges have never been off the body - the "pin" is so far up in the cavity such that I can't reach it with my finger. The front arch of my hatch is like yours, it's "more flat" than the roof arch so when it's coming up  the center of the hatch is closer to the body line than the corners... I have a pretty consistent ~6mm gap at the top of the hatch, 5mm gap on each side (slightly wider at the bottom on the right side), and mine juts past the quarter sheet metal about a millimeter on the left and maybe 1.5-2mm on the right. (I could probably remove shims and get a tighter match at the rear and still clear the body but that's just too damn much work for a 70 year old...). I'll see if I can get an angle measurement on the hatch flanges when I get to the shop tomorrow.

Keep a couple layers of tape on the body and the struts off or completely out of the way until you have the hatch aligned - it's a two man job. (we use microfiber towels draped over any crucial body area until we're sure there isn't any contact point whenever we do hatches or hoods and/or keep all the edges covered with 3M Blue Masking Tape. Two men - watching each side, corner, and top gap as we move it up and down.

Edited September 22, 2021 by cgsheen1

[Zed Head]

10 minutes ago, cgsheen1 said:

Take that hatch off and don't put it back in until you have the glass and trim installed. Seriously. You may think it's better to fit and adjust with the glass removed, it's not.

That's a good point.  Glass adds stiffness.  The hatch might be warping as he moves it up and down.

I'd also take some measurements just to see if those sides will ever fit in to the body correctly.  And, see if the top rail can be moved, squeezed downward.  Back to glass adding stiffness, and shape.  You might be trying to fix a problem that won't exist.