Part Prices Discussion

[inline6]

I have been an avid Datsun enthusiast for several decades now.  I have accumulated a ridiculous number of hours looking for parts.  I've probably logged thousands of hours on Ebay.  I have search Craigslist, even utilizing special Google searches to search different locations across Craigslist nationwide.  I have "searched" Facebook, joined Facebook groups specializing in Datsun... I have searched Google high and low.  I have found various sites that sell Datsun parts.  I have looked through as well as searched many of those sites which I found via Google.  I have used Datsun forums, their classified sections, etc.  I have used Datsun car clubs, contacts I made via those clubs... I have used Datsun forums, and their classifieds.  

I am a Datsun parts searching expert.

I am sure many of your are as well.  So, I'd like to throw a few questions out to fellow Datsun part seeking experts and amateurs alike and see what y'all think. 

I realize that pricing is a pretty big topic.  So, I think a bit more restriction of the discussion would be helpful.  Let's not talk about used parts.  Let's not talk about parts which are new, but are quite probably if not for sure discontinued and no longer available.  Let's just talk about new parts which are not backordered.   I think the scope can include aftermarket parts, as long as these are commonly available from more than one vendor (and orders can be fulfilled).  And the scope can include OEM Nissan parts, which are brand new, and available from Nissan of North America.  

Why are prices of these new parts, in this day and age of the internet, so wildly varying from one vendor to the next or from one dealer to the next?  Take for example, OEM Datsun parts which are still available as one classification.  Why the hell is there such a wide range of pricing for the same readily available part?  Are the people pricing them at much higher prices than others idiots?  Ignorant?  Both?  Or, are they the smart ones? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2022 by inline6

[psdenno]

2 hours ago, inline6 said:

Are the people pricing them at much higher prices than others idiots?  Ignorant?  Both?  Or, are they the smart ones? 

Less ethical would be my guess.  As sellers, they must have had some success catching a buyer who doesn't do due diligence when searching for parts and price comparing.  Either that or they don't really want to part with the parts.  Experience tells me they just want to catch the random uninformed buyer and don't care about establishing an ongoing vendor/customer relationship.

Edited January 29, 2022 by psdenno

[siteunseen]

My local dealer won't allow that buying out crap. They're not stupid.

I remember Reddit? I think on ebay was/is a rapist. California Datsun did the same opportunistic thing. Bad apples, I say, ruin it for us.

I used to get a 30% discount but no more, those days are gone.

Edited January 29, 2022 by siteunseen

[heyitsrama]

I’ve met people that just don’t look at reference diagrams for part numbers, they are out there. Like given them a link to the parts diagram, expressed that the parts can be had for cheaper. But they don’t do it.

Maybe it’s a convenience thing. I guess it’s easier to just click and order from one site.

[dutchzcarguy]

8 hours ago, inline6 said:

Why the hell is there such a wide range of pricing for the same readily available part? 

Some buy it in bulk and others per piece? The global spot where you get the part is also a player in the game.. and then there are differences in quality.. a waterpump for a L24 for example costs in the Usa 15-20 dollar..?  Overhere i get excited when i can get me one for 50 euro! Not the nockoff china stuff with the steel plate impellor.. i want the original die-cast metal impellor! (wich is more expensive but can/will work for decades!!) The original will have much better and water tight ball bearings..

[inline6]

4 hours ago, dutchzcarguy said:

Some buy it in bulk and others per piece? The global spot where you get the part is also a player in the game.. and then there are differences in quality.. a waterpump for a L24 for example costs in the Usa 15-20 dollar..?  Overhere i get excited when i can get me one for 50 euro! Not the nockoff china stuff with the steel plate impellor.. i want the original die-cast metal impellor! (wich is more expensive but can/will work for decades!!) The original will have much better and water tight ball bearings..

Let's have a look at a water pump as an exercise.  Original part number: 21010-E3026.  Part number supersedes to 21010-P7589, which is discontinued, no longer available from the dealers in the US.  Looking for info on original manufacturers, I came across this thread here on our forum:

The Aisin part number is WPN-013.  The Aisin has the cast impeller.  

Looking around online, I found many options, and as expected, pricing was all over the place. 

Here are are few:

15.89 Euros plus shipping:

 

This one from Motorsport Auto may or may not have it - it is a "premium" water pump - no indication of brand.

While pictures aren't always guaranteed to be accurate, "Autopartsgeek" offers on eBay an ITM pump which appears to have a cast impeller for $32 US with free shipping.

 

Rockauto has a couple out of their several options which, according to the pictures, have cast impellers. This "Airtex" is $16.40 US plus shipping.  Their price on the Aisin pump is $23.70 US plus shipping.  

 

 

As is typically the case, I find that even the same brand pump (such as the Aisin wpn13) varies in price considerably.  And of course, if you look at the more comprehensive list of options, you see even more variation.  Take this one for example:

Isn't that nice?

 

Edited January 29, 2022 by inline6

[Av8ferg]

I don’t think it’s unethical to allow vendors to charge whatever they want, this is capitalism. Competition drives prices down and incentivize vendors to become more efficient. People can choose not to buy from them and a free market will usually drive prices down unless you have the market locked up buy one or two vendors. What is unethical and when vendors coordinate together to run prices up. This is what OPEC and other organizations do to manipulate prices.

We want Z parts vendors to be profitable, if they aren’t then you have less choices or no clouded and less choice = higher prices.
We face this in the aviation industry, people complain about the cost of aviation parts. I used to be responsible for getting parts from manufactures to the operational units. We paid crazy amounts for parts. An example is a small APU (auxiliary power unit). These are small turbine engines to start aircraft motors or provide electrical power to an aircraft. We paid $465,000 each to refurbish them by Boeing. They were really worth maybe $50,000 but nobody makes them anymore and how do incentivize Boeing to rebuild 100 a year? You have to pay and make it worth their while or they’ll say “no thank you”. Then you have no aircraft to fly.

So for example i need new window scrappers for my Z (ones that touche the glass when you roll up the window). A vendor like MSA might sell 120 a year? Maybe only 40 a year. How do you make it worth their while to find a company that will make these for them . They have to offer that supplier a profitable motive. When this happens I can get a nice replacement parts. Otherwise, I’m stuck with the hard broken ones I have.

You see this is things like remanufactured starters or brake masters etc. Why do some many of these parts suck! Well, because we consumers tend to buy the cheaper of the options available, to compete companies have to find ways to do it cheaper and then you end up with crap!
I remember from Econ 101 “The consumer sets the prices of good and services when the free market is working”. If it cost too much…don’t buy it. If you want it and feel the value to cost ratio is there then buy it.

[inline6]

Good points.  Profit is important.  There are lots of factors for sure.  And yeah, some of those remanufactured starters are garbage. 

One of the touted benefits of capitalism is that it is dynamic.  Generally speaking, market opportunities will be found and filled with solutions better than the other economic and political systems.  In my opinion, another benefit should be better relative market efficiency.  I think Amazon is a good example of that.  On the whole, they have made purchasing things easier/cheaper/better/faster or some combination. 

What I find odd, speaking back and more directly to buying parts for Datsuns, is that I have to spend so much time looking (on the internet) through "garbage" product offers (availability/price/shipping cost/time for delivery) to get to the ones that are "good".  The market efficiency that I believe should be there (nearly three decades after the internet became a thing) is lacking.  I think that is true of more than parts for our old Datsuns, but for purposes of discussion, Datsun parts are a fine example.

Edited January 29, 2022 by inline6

[zed2]

Unfortunately or fortunately, Datsuns S30s attract a wide variety of owners.  Some owner’s maintenance/repair budget is designed to just keep the vehicle on the road. Therefore they want the “cheapest” part available that is easily accessible….just a mouse click away on many websites.

Some owners are interested in long term value of their vehicle and will “invest” in quality parts.  This requires customer research on the quality and availability (we will probably face supply change issues at least until 2023) of a part. 

The parts market must try to balance both demands.  Quality parts at a “fair” price are available, often requiring buyer research, ordering and returning mislabeled parts, and delays in project completion.

I find it interesting that a potential Datsun S30 restoration buyer will research an auction listing, ask questions of the seller regarding type of paint and ask for photos of the restoration process and never ask for information about the parts (and materials and supplies) used.

The recent 1971 Datsun 240Z Series I sale (https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1971-datsun-240z-209/) by CW240Z72 is a great example of providing a buyer a list of parts used in the rebuild.  With the early S30s values exceeding $60k+ owners of these vehicles should demand quality parts and (most importantly) be willing to pay the price.

Keith

 

[Av8ferg]

41 minutes ago, inline6 said:

Good points.  Profit is important.  There are lots of factors for sure.  And yeah, some of those remanufactured starters are garbage. 

One of the touted benefits of capitalism is that it is dynamic.  Generally speaking, market opportunities will be found and filled with solutions better than the other economic and political systems.  In my opinion, another benefit should be better relative market efficiency.  I think Amazon is a good example of that.  On the whole, they have made purchasing things easier/cheaper/better/faster or some combination. 

What I find odd, speaking back and more directly to buying parts for Datsuns, is that I have to spend so much time looking (on the internet) through "garbage" product offers (availability/price/shipping cost/time for delivery) to get to the ones that are "good".  The market efficiency that I believe should be there (nearly three decades after the internet became a thing) is lacking.  I think that is true of more than parts for our old Datsuns, but for purposes of discussion, Datsun parts are a fine example.

The only reason this is true is because it is a niche market.  Again we have to look at profitability vs effort.  What do you think the total market value is of all Datsun parts in one year globally is?.   This number is tiny, tiny.   I bet paperclips have a larger market value globally than vintage Datsun parts.  Its market size/value that drives investors.  A larger pie attracts more entrepreneurs.  We want resources going to where there are large markets.   It’s just the reality to the laws of economics.  Let’s keep the folks we have incentivized to keep the parts flowing.  There is one website that had tried to do what you are talking about.   https://www.datsunpartz.com
 

 

[zspert]

Only have time to address one side of this many sided coin - reproduction parts for 240/260/280. Most every time I reproduce a part I first have to give a LOT of thought about how long will it take me to break even on my investment. If I have to invest many, many thousands - like in the case of my interior mirrors - how many years, not kidding here, will it take to reach scale given the TINY market I serve.  It's always a decision reached after a lot of sweat has been expended.  Have been working on and off on reproduction battery cables for a number of years. My investment will be HUGE. Will I live long enough to reach scale? Stay tuned.

Interesting note - reproduction 240 parts sell at about a 25 to 1 ratio to reproduction 280 parts.

Finally, Nissan doesn't discontinue parts out of meanness. They do it because the parts aren't selling. They couldn't justify continuing those neat under hood trouble lights because they didn't move enough of them even at about $30.00 each!! Try to find a new one now for under $250.00. 

 

[SteveJ]

3 minutes ago, zspert said:

Only have time to address one side of this many sided coin - reproduction parts for 240/260/280. Most every time I reproduce a part I first have to give a LOT of thought about how long will it take me to break even on my investment. If I have to invest many, many thousands - like in the case of my interior mirrors - how many years, not kidding here, will it take to reach scale given the TINY market I serve.  It's always a decision reached after a lot of sweat has been expended.  Have been working on and off on reproduction battery cables for a number of years. My investment will be HUGE. Will I live long enough to reach scale? Stay tuned.

Interesting note - reproduction 240 parts sell at about a 25 to 1 ratio to reproduction 280 parts.

Finally, Nissan doesn't discontinue parts out of meanness. They do it because the parts aren't selling. They couldn't justify continuing those neat under hood trouble lights because they didn't move enough of them even at about $30.00 each!! Try to find a new one now for under $250.00. 

 

Mike, don't let math enter into the argument.  

I have costed out the materials to make some parts, and I understand exactly what you mean.