production number for 1969

[kats]

Hello everyone,

I would like to show a data which I got from the factory.

I hope this will help someone's knowlege and questions clear.

Unfortunatly it does not mention about HLS and HS seperatetly,

it says only"E" for export model means HLS and HS.

Also "D" for domestic model(JAPANESE)S30,PS30...

Here they are,

1969 May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec

"D" 1 1 2 6 9 48 214 688

"E" 1 0 2 1 2 52 388 97

Some notes:

On 10th Oct 1969, 2 silver 240z(HLS) arrived at NMC gardena california,for 3 months /16000miles road test. Actualy they were in each big wooden boxes!!They are preproduction #14 and #15.This means they are 14th and 15th build in the factory, they are not HLS30-00014 or 15.

I got these,so far.Factory said there is no person who knows much more details of production numbers currently.

I guess they are HLS30-00004 and 00005.

Reasons are,

#1 The factory said they made 3 prototypes for testing assembly line and seeing how workers build.They were not given serial numbers and they are the ones in May and Jun which you can see above.They called "KOJYOU SHISAKU"If I can transrate directly,"factory prototype"

Alan,you can help me please follow up!

So,HLS30-00001 and 00002 should be the ones produced in Jul.

They are called "SEISAN SHISAKU" transrate directly "production prototype"?

They are exactly same as 240Z,I mean everything(whole thing)same as 240Z which were sold to the public.

You can count 11 240Zs in Jul through Aug.Accordingly #14 and #15 must be produced in Sep,right?

One more interesting view I was told,

You can see the numbers in Dec is much less than in Nov.

The factory said that happend due to found ploblems in test driving,they slow down nearly stopped production.

Major ploblems are big road noise,viblation from rear axle,and

steering kicking back.Test crew reported that from U.S.A. and the factory in Japan tried to solve these ploblems.

Mid to late Dec,the factory managed to clear ploblems anyway(not perfect),they shipped corrected 240Z(with some development parts,not sure how many 240Zs) by air.

Then the factory went to full swing production,very busy.

I will add some sotry soon.

Best regards,

kats

[kats]

Hi,sorry for my poor writing.

I say again,

1969 [May D 1, E 1] [ Jun D 1, E 0] [Jul D 2, E 2] [Aug D 6, E 1]

[sep D 9, E 2] [Oct D 48, E 52] [Nov D 214, E 388]

[Dec D 688, E 97]

D is domestic,E is export model.

And I forgot to mention one thing,why only export model's production number was descent in Dec,that is a difference of situation 240Z was drivien.At that time,in Japan there were so few people could drive sports car like 240Z.And they did not usualy drive long distance like americans do.So the factory decided to neglect those ploblems for domestic market models.They continued production for S30 and PS30(SB).

kats

[HS30-H]

Hi Kats,

Well done!

Its great to see new information about those early days of pre-production, and I for one certainly appreciate your efforts and the fact that you are sharing this new data.

I agree with your translations of "Kojyo Shisaku" and "Seisan Shisaku". In the business that I am involved with, we use virtually the same terms in English and Japanese. We usually translate "Kojyo" as "Factory" and "Seisan" as "Production" in my business, so I would think that you could possibly translate "Kojyo Shisaku" as "Pre-Production Prototype" and "Seisan Shisaku" as "Production Prototype".

Perfect translation between English and Japanese is not always possible!

At the very least, these figures show that the LHD cars were not produced "first", and that there were indeed RHD cars being pre-productionised at the same time. In fact, up to November 1969 more RHD prototypes had been made than LHD prototypes. That's nice to see, as it might help to get the message across with regard to the LHD cars NOT being the "First" as is sometimes claimed.

I had read in some Japanese magazine articles that the test crews in North America had come across problems that caused a hold-up in production. I had also heard that Domestic market cars had not been held up in the same way, and that the 'problems' were mainly caused by the crank vibrations on the L24 engines. Of course, the S30 and PS30 would not have suffered these, so maybe that influenced the decision to press on with Domestic production while Export production was held up? The driveshaft vibration problem was finally fixed much later with the repositioning of the diff. - so I wonder if this was too big a job to redesign in late November and December and they had to leave it until much later? Interesting.

Great data, Kats. This should give us good material to discuss for some time to come!

Here are some pics. of the North American test crews at work, which may be of interest to some:

Alan T.

[HS30-H]

..and another;

Alan T.

[Alfadog]

Great data, we could only wish for more of the same for the rest of the years!!! (how many numbers can you handle!?)

Those are some great pics Alan, I love the 2nd one, even if I dont know who most of those people are!!! It's the kind of picture I can imagine framed and hanging on my wall. Interesting lack of side badges and weird tyres! Which makes me think, have you got a shrine at your house Alan or just a really big hard drive?

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by Alfadog

....have you got a shrine at your house Alan or just a really big hard drive?

I afraid I'm only endowed with a very small Hard Drive ( hence the very long nose on the car........... ).

Its actually just a very large cupboard. The 'Wife' calls it something else.

That's great information from Kats isn't it? Its made my weekend start off with a high.

As Kats has shown, there IS more data to be got from its custodians at Nissan and I've never been happy to accept the nonsense figures and guesstimates that have been published before now. Nissan seem to be slowly stirring from their slumber and getting the message that tomorrow's PR might be helped somewhat if they took care of yesterday's heritage. I'm not sure if this is due to the fuss about the Z33 or the effects of a lot of interest and probing from people like Kats - but its certainly been more apparent that they are coming out of their shell a little. The news that they really ARE planning a proper museum in Japan has got to be good news for us all.

Hats off to Kats!

Alan T.

[Alfadog]

Originally posted by HS30-H

I afraid I'm only endowed with a very small Hard Drive ( hence the very long nose on the car........... ).

I thought I told you to stay well away of Rick, he's a bad influence !!!

(at least you dont have a Corvette... yet)

[Z Kid]

While you guys are discussing history, what do you think of this ebay statement.

Quote by guy selling the car

"The engine is the L24 2.4 liter with the E31 head. The engine is original but the numbers do not match, this is because Datsun (nissan) took about a year and a half to get things together due to how their factory was set up. If anywhere on the assembley line something didn't pass quality check the vehicle was sidelined and then the next car went through and got that vehicles engine. This made sure that none of the early 240z's had correct engine and frame matching numbers."

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2419720690&category=6187

Its supposedly a genuine all original Z car, so it kind of fits in with the topic (not really but hey)

Is this really true??

[HS30-H]

Sounds like he's a little confused about what "matching numbers" means..............

Just like any other car manufacturer, Nissan did have the occasional car that didn't quite come up to standards. These cars would be sent to a special section that would usually fix the problems.

A car would have to be REALLY bad for the engine to be taken out and installed in another car, or for the engine not to be installed in the first place. In any case, if this happened the VIN tag on the car could be amended ( replaced ) or if no engine had been installed then the engine number would not be on the tag in the first place. So he's talking rubbish.

The engine number is not stamped on the actual "frame" ( body ) of the car - only the VIN number is actually stamped ( on the firewall ). If the engine number on this particular car does not match the engine number stamped on the tag, then its not the original engine.

There were some markets where the engine number was not on the tags either.............

Alan T.

[Alan Pugh]

Alan,

As far as I am aware the Australian cars did not have the engine numbers on the VIN tag, I know my 260 hasn't.

The only way to find out if the original engine is in the car would be the original bill of sale or if someone bothered to fill out the page in the owners hand book or you could try and trace the original registration papers.

Allthough all this proves I suppose is that the original engine block is in the car, nothing more.

Alan P.

[Alfadog]

Your 260 should, as far as I know all Aussie Z cars definitely had VIN and Engine No. stamped on their little metal tag...

[Carl Beck]

Hi Gang:

I'm joining this discussion a bit late... so I'm trying to catch up. I've coped Kats entire Post - so I can intersperse comments/questions.

Great info Kats - can you tell us who or what section at the factory supplied it? I assume you are talking to Nissan HQ - not the actual factory (yes/no?).

Kats> Hello everyone,

Kats> I would like to show a data which I got from the factory. I

Kats> hope this will help someone's knowlege and questions Kats> clear.

Kats> Unfortunatly it does not mention about HLS and HS

Kats> seperatetly, it says Kats> only"E" for export model

Kats> means HLS and HS.

I would not assume that it means "either" - No "Production" (meaning cars sold to the public) HS30 240-Z's were produced until very late Jan or Feb of 1970. I have never seen any pictures of "prototype" Right Hand Drive 240-Z's in any of the books written on the subject either. (has anyone got a reference to one?). I have seen Prototype "Fairlady Z's" in RHD of course... but no 240-Z's.

Kats> Also "D" for domestic model (JAPANESE)S30,PS30...

Kats> Here they are,

Kats> 1969 May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec

Kats> "D" 1 1 2 6 9 48 214 688

Kats> "E" 1 0 2 1 2 52 388 97

Kats> Some notes:

Kats> On 10th Oct 1969, 2 silver 240z(HLS) arrived at NMC

Kats> gardena california,for 3 months /16000miles road test.

Kats> Actualy they were in each big wooden boxes!! They are

Kats> preproduction #14 and #15.

Kats> This means they are 14th and 15th build in the factory,

Kats> they are not HLS30-00014 or 15.

Rumor has it that several were sent to Canada also for pre-production Winter Testing. No verification of that yet.

Kats> I got these,so far. Factory said there is no person who

Kats> knows much more details of production numbers

Kats> currently.

It is sad Nissan didn't keep any of the production records either. I wonder who/why they found what they did?

Kats> I guess they are HLS30-00004 and 00005.

Kats> Reasons are, #1 The factory said they made 3

Kats> prototypes for testing assembly line and seeing how

Kats> workers build. They were not given serial numbers and

Kats> they are the ones in May and Jun which you can see

Kats> above. They called "KOJYOU SHISAKU" If I can transrate

Kats> directly,"factory prototype"

Kats> Alan, you can help me please follow up!

Kats> So,HLS30-00001 and 00002 should be the ones produced

Kats> in Jul. They are called "SEISAN SHISAKU" transrate

Kats> directly "production prototype"? They are exactly same

Kats> as 240Z, I mean everything (whole thing)same as 240Z

Kats> which were sold to the public.

OK - so you are saying you believe the VIN's/Chassis Numbers started at 01 with the production prototypes in July of 69... sounds reasonable to me.

Kats> You can count 11 240Zs in Jul through Aug.

NO - I count 3 240-Z's and 8 Fairlady Z's July through Aug.

Kats> Accordingly #14 and #15 must be produced in Sep,right?

No - HLS30 00004 and HLS30 00005 would have been produced in Sept. (right?).

Since HLS30 00006 and HLS30 00008 had a production date of Oct. 69 - that would seem to come out right as far as Datsun 240-Z's would go. (HLS30 00006, 00007 and 00008 were used on the Show Car Circuit - first shown at the New York Auto Show - 00006 was dented and sent to Bob Sharp Racing (it's still being raced in Vintage events here - likewise 00008 went to Speckman for race prep - and is still being raced in Vintage events here - none were sold to the public).

Your figures show 537 240-Z's produced in Oct. Nov. Dec. of 69. That would seem to agree with the usual "first 500 produced" claim. (we've documented the fact that cars past HLS30 00500 had 69 production dates attached).

Kats> One more interesting view I was told, You can see the

Kats> numbers in Dec is much less than in Nov. The factory said

Kats> that happend due to found ploblems in test driving,they

Kats> slow down nearly stopped production.

That's very interesting. Indeed, we have only found 4 cars still in existence with Dec. Production Dates. #87, 89, 496 and 587. You will notice they are quite far out of perfect sequence.

Kats> Major ploblems are big road noise,viblation from rear

Kats> axle,and steering kicking back. Test crew reported that

Kats> from U.S.A. and the factory in Japan tried to solve these

Kats> ploblems.

Interesting - my first Z was HLS30 001777. After I had it for about four months - the dealer installed a clamp with a rubber bumper on the steering rack - to reduce the steering kickback and front end shake (that what they told me at the time). Never noticed any vibration from the rear axle.

The real problem they had was the L24 had been designed for sedan use - then put in the Z. The L24 originally had a six counterweighted crankshaft. When subjected to the higher RPM's used in the 240-Z's they had very bad harmonic balance problems. They cracked flywheels and blew clutch pressure plates.

This was solved by going to an eight counterweighted crankshaft. The "fix" was introduced in the late Jan. 70 production cars (about the third week). (engine serial numbers L24- 03607 or newer received the newer cranks).

Kats> Mid to late Dec,the factory managed to clear ploblems

Kats> anyway(not perfect),they shipped corrected 240Z(with

Kats> some development parts, not sure how many 240Zs) by

Kats> air.

Another problem we had with the very early cars were the shocks leaked every 6K miles. The Datsun Dealer rebuilt the shocks free of charge duing the first 12 months on my Z - without regard to mileage... (I put 68K miles on that Z in 18 months - so I was way over 12K miles long before the year was up).

Kats> Then the factory went to full swing production,very busy.

Kats> I will add some so try soon.

Kats> Best regards,

Kats> kats

Great job Kats.. keep at it.

kind regards,

Carl

Carl Beck

Clearwater,FL USA

http://ZHome.com

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