production number for 1969

[Bambikiller240]

Please don't take the discussion "off-line", we won't fall asleep. Delving into this can be enlightening for all so long as it stays a respectful and doesn't become personal. (and I'm sure neither of you would do that)

Share what you can with us. Thanks to both Alan T. and Carl B. for sharing information with the club!

[HS30-H]

Wow Carl,

The weather in Clearwater must be really bad. You've written the first chapter of War & Peace...............

First of all - can I ask you to do me a favour? Take note of how to spell my name? Its A L A N - Alan. If you can't remember it - just take a quick peek at the bottom of my posts. Thank you.

Well - after all that, it seems almost futile to resist. Perhaps I should simply cave in and concede to your totally perverse point of view. I've got to hand it to you, you certainly know how to put 'spin' on an argument. You seem to have missed your vocation, as you would have been a very successful politician ( and that is not necessarily a compliment these days ).

If I use your style of quoting in great chunks then this post will end up overflowing before I've even added to it. I'll have to try to get away with quoting parts and hope that anybody who is following will refer back to the original text for context.

I'm glad that you finally got the message about the HS30, and the fact that I have been trying to make people aware of RHD prototype development and production as NOT being behind the LHD model. I am surprised that you acknowledged the fact, as I see nothing to that effect in your writing on the subject ( yes - on zhome.com - which seems to contain articles that are almost exclusively written by yourself ). Maybe you will update soon?

Here's a good quote from your post; " you are of course completely wrong....". Now I certainly have an opinion about this matter as a whole, but its not SOLELY my opinion. I share it with other people, and many of these people are Z enthusiasts. It will not surprise you to know ( as I am sure that you have already guessed ) that the majority of these people are Japanese. Here's a good point to drop in another quote from your posts; they may be exercising their "Japanese Ego / Bias"!

I truly think that you are looking down the wrong end of the telescope, Carl. What you are writing, and the style in which you write it, is totally a restrospective view of the situation. Any attempt to poke holes in this perspective is going to be about as futile as arguing with the kind of person who posits that the earth is flat and the Moon is made of cheese. Your opinion is so entrenched, and your defences built so high, that any attack will simply bounce off. You seem also to have plenty of acolytes who wait with eager anticipation at your every utterance, and when I challenge any opinion you hold I take on these people too. Its a tough match, but you might like to reflect that just because you are using high sales figures and market share as your weapons it does not automatically follow that 'he who sells most wins'.

So here I stand, faced with your Big Mac philospohy ( we sold billions of them - so they must be the best! ) armed only with the sad prospect of an English Cream Tea, wondering just what part of your defences would be the soft underbelly, and the first point to attack. Did St George have this kind of quandary when he faced The Dragon?, did David think at all before aiming at Goliath? We will probably never know.

So what can I do, except swing and hope for the best? Here it is; your stance is TOTALLY wrong! You are saying that what sold most must be king. But take yourself back to the 1968 and 1969 period when NISSAN were putting the final touches to their new creation. They were sure as hell HOPING that the thing would sell well in the Export market. They were sure as hell hoping that the thing would sell well in the largest export market in the World. However - it was certainly NOT a foregone conclusion, and it would have to rely on a lot of factors that were outside their control. One of these would be good timing, and sure enough they found that they had timed their new product very well.

Isn't that the point that you are missing? What if the Z had gone down in the US market like a lead balloon? Would you judge it a failure? You probably would, as you seem to be judging success or failure on your Big Mac Principle of who sells ( most ) wins.......

You call the non-US market 'nitch' markets ( niche? ). If that is the case, then EVERY product ever made for the Export market will have been aimed at the USA. Its just the single biggest market in the whole World. It makes sense to hope that a product will do well in the USA. We hear it here in the UK particularly with respect to the music business; bands want to "break America" because they know it will make them more money than almost all of their other markets combined. This will keep their record companies happy and allow them the time and artistic freedom to go on and make the music that they want to. There is only one World, and the late Twentieth Century and early part of the Twenty First has been shaped this way; America is King. However, its seems quite clear to many minds outside ( and some inside ) America that tuning your product to the American market does not leave it very pure.................... I wonder if some of these people feel like Robert Johnson at the crossroads - when he sold his soul to the Devil?

You call the Japanese domestic model S30S ( Fairlady Z ) a "stripped out model" - but you seem to conveniently forget about the Fairlady Z-L. This was - in all respects apart from its 2 litre engine - of EQUAL or SUPERIOR spec. to the USA model HLS30. How on earth can you posit that the USA-market model HLS30 was in any way superior to the RHD cars EXCEPT in its engine spec.? You are ignoring the fact that these models were arguably better at being "sports" cars than the USA models. Nissan ( probably at Katayama's behest ) gave you a four-speed and matching diff ratio, softer springs and dampers and no rear anti-roll bar. This was a car MADE for the USA? I don't think so. The USA-market HLS30 was a spec. that was aimed at a certain market, but you can't say that the layout of the car made any sense in LHD form. The layout of the engine and trans forced the controls of the driver's side to avoid the induction and exhaust manifolds. Sorry - but that's a fact that was forced on the designers because they had to work with what was available to them.

I posit that if the S30-series Z car was, as you quoted, "An American Sports Car - made in Japan" - then they would have made a better job of the LHD version. You can think about that every time you go to use your E-brake.

Alan T.

[HS30-H]

..........continued

And what of other manufacturers who hoped to do well in the US market? We had a good parallel with Japan here in the UK during the Fifties and Sixties ( being both RHD native markets who needed to sell abroad to expand ). There was slogan in the factories at that time; "Export or Die!". I give you the example of the Austin A90 Atlantic, a car that was most certainly "aimed" at the US Export market. Austin took a car to Indianapolis and broke a huge number of AAA records by running the thing virually non-stop for days and nights on end - and all in a bid to break the US market. The design was conceived as a car "for" the US market, using an engine, transmission and final drive that were plucked from other domestic models. The styling of the car was what the Austin designers thought America would want. Was it a success? NO! It was widely thought of as neither fish nor fowl..........

Wait another few years and enter the MG sports car series. The T series found a few buyers but America was not really cracked big until the MGA and the MG Roadster. The Triumph sports car range TR2/3/4 etc went over very well in the US compared to the domestic ( UK ) market. Like Japan, Britain was still getting back on its feet after very literally having its back broken in the war. These kinds of cars were a luxury to us, but the US market lapped them up. But were these cars designed "for" the USA? Well, not really. The LHD models have always been regarded as compromises in the same way that a right hand drive Alfa Romeo or a right hand drive Fiat might be; the layout just does not work as well when its switched. They might badge them specially for the US market ( calling the Triumph a "TR250" for example ) and give them a few special doo-dads that they thought you would want - but they were not conceived / designed "for" the US market.

You seem to say, however that the S30-series Z WAS. I think you are mixing Mr Katayama's PR speak with reality. The HLS30 model was aimed at the US export market - but the basic layout of the car DOES NOT show any evidence of having been made PRIMARILY for the LHD market. If you think it has - then please point these details out to me and argue them through. I see no evidence to support your theory that this is so.

Just because the car sold so well in the US ( taking advantage of a good exchange rate and an easy passage across the Pacific ) does NOT change what the Factory were thinking and hoping for the car when it was designed. The shell was quite clearly designed with some dual-use possibility, but STILL bears all the evidence of the RHD version being prime. Most of the pre-production prototypes and mock-ups that I have seen pictures of are RHD. Isn't that a bit strange for a car that was and "America Sports Car"? Do you think this is Japanese Ego / Bias at work again?

There is a certain amount ( not inconsiderable, actually ) of futility in my trying to get you to see the Japanese point of view. Remember - its not just MY opinion that I am putting forward here. There will be a certain amount of flexibility, but basically I think most Japanese people who are interested in the history of this car and have studied it carefully, or who were involved in its inception and manufacture, will be most surprised that anyone could think the way that you do.

Alan T.

[sjcurtis]

Thanks to KATS for the original post. It is good to see that in the life of the S30 significant information can still be found by the dedicated investigator.

I have enjoyed the good level of banter, mixed with the uncovering of fact that this post has produced.

Great Photos.

I am confused in a few areas but I guess the first question must be ( to anyone).

1. In the context of this thread does E mean HLS30. and

2. Does the HLS30 designation cover all of the LH Drive S30 build.

Regards

Steve

:classic:

[Bambikiller240]

Originally posted by sjcurtis

1. In the context of this thread does E mean HLS30. :classic:

My understanding of the discussion is that (E) includes both HLS30 and HS30 for EXPORT (i.e. not for the Japanese domestic Market. )

Someone correct me if I'm out to lunch here.

[Carl Beck]

Hi Carl:

As the thread started with Kat's original post - it covered 1969 production. In that context "E" applied to the HLS30's - If we were talking about 1970 production then "E" would cover both HLS and HS models.

Or said another way - as only the HLS30's were built for export in 1969 the numbers represented by "E" apply to the HLS30's only.

regards,

Carl

[Carl Beck]

HI Steve:

Oops.. sorry I missed answering your second question.

I'd have to say "yes". As the "H" stands for the L24 engine - The "HLS30" designation would cover all the left hand drive units exported.

regards,

Carl B.

Carl Beck

Clearwater,FL USA

http://ZHome.com

[Carl Beck]

Hi A l a n:

I am sorry about the mistake on your name.. I usually try to be very careful about that.

Alan Wrote:

AT> Wow Carl,

AT> The weather in Clearwater must be really bad.

AT> You've written the first chapter of War & Peace.......

As this is a private (members only) forum - I'll have to admit that we have now had rain for the past five days. (something that the Tampa Bay Tourists Bureau would not like to have too broadly published!!). It's so rare that if the Sun doesn't shine all day the Newspapers are FREE!! But don't let that keep you from planning a vacation in Florida ;-)

AT> You seem to have missed your vocation, as you would

AT> have been a very successful politician ( and that is not

AT> necessarily a compliment these days ).

That's a truly funny thought. The last politician we had that was an Engineer was President Jimmy Carter - a heck of a nice guy, but a true failure as President. The last State Governor I recall that was an Engineer was in Washington State (Dixie Lee...) again a true failure as a leader...

The truth is, one of my undergraduate Majors was Industrial Organization and Management (aka Operations Research). One of my undergraduate Minors was Journalism. I should have gone on to Law School - I could have made more money as a politician ;-)

AT> ....interesting comments snipped... (I may come back to some of them later..cjb)

AT> There is a certain amount ( not inconsiderable, actually ) of

AT> futility in my trying to get you to see the Japanese point of

AT> view. Remember - its not just MY opinion that I am putting

AT> forward here.

It may not be your opinion alone. That is why I'm taking the time to to publicly disagree. I do not believe that is the Japanese point of view at all.

AT> There will be a certain amount of flexibility, but

AT> basically I think most Japanese people who are interested in

AT> the history of this car and have studied it carefully, or who

AT> were involved in its inception and manufacture, will be most

AT> surprised that anyone could think the way that you do.

My guess is that you greatly underestimate the industrial education and intellect of the "average" Japanese citizen. They recognize "competitive success" in the marketplace when they accomplish it.

It is my believe that they take far greater pride in the success of their strategic management and marketing approach in the automotive field - than you might credit them with. I believe that most Japanese Z Car Fans - would quickly admit that the Z represents a huge product success as well as an original design and marketing approach - that scored a "WIN" in the competitive markets of the US... to a far greater extent than they think of the Z as a "Sports Car For Japan that happened to sell well in the US".

I believe that most will tell you that the Z was not really well suited for use in Japan and that accounted for its limited sales there. (Remember that Japan has half the population of the US and in 1970 they were not a poor people, nor a poor country - they were an emerging industrial and economic giant)

I'd suggest that anyone interested in this discussion - research/ study Dr. W. Edward Deming, then read a few books on Total Quality Management (read the Japanese authors like Masaaki Imai's "KIAZEN").

I'd also suggest reading "The Origins of Competitive Strength - Fifty Years of the Auto Industry in Japan and the US", written by Mr. Akira Kawahara, as well as David Halberstam's "The Reckoning".

I think you are in grave error when you attribute "PR speak" to Mr. Katayama when he introduced the Datsun 240-Z to the Nissan Employees - I can only feel sorry that you don't know him.

I do and I can assure you that if nothing else - he has always been a man of honest words (even when it didn't help his career at Nissan HQ).

Mr. K said:

"The 240Z represents the imaginative spirit of Nissan, and was designed to please a demanding taste that is strictly American. It meets all the requirements of sports-minded drivers, fulfilling their desire for superb styling, power and safety, and provides them with the most thrilling and enjoyable ride available in any car.

Our new product reflects the rapid advancement of our company. We have studied the memorable artistry of the European coachmakers and engine builders and combined our knowledge with Japanese craftsmanship. The result is an exotic, high-performance car exclusively for America. It will be the beginning of a new romance for the true car lovers who believe that motoring is more than just a commute."

I think you will find that the Datsun 240-Z sold in great numbers because it was a total quality design, carried through production with great design integrity - it was a success in the eyes of it's customers long before it sold in great numbers.

Said in another way - it sold in great numbers because it was a customer driven quality success - it wasn't declared a "success" after it sold in great numbers.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[Carl Beck]

A l a n Wrote:

AT> You call the Japanese domestic model S30S ( Fairlady Z )

AT> a "stripped out model" - but you seem to conveniently forget

AT> about the Fairlady Z-L.

Hi Alan:

I call it like it is. The S30S was stripped of many otherwise standard features to lower its cost in the Japanese market.

I most certainly did not forget the Fairlady Z-L. However now that you mention it I will point out that it too was a compromise of the original design which offered lower performance. I hardly see how that would be "an improvement".

The S30 chassis was designed for the torque and hp of the 2.4L engine. Substituting the 2.0L was a compromise not driven by customer defined product quality - but rather to accommodate then current Japanese restrictions on the displacement of gas engines. What Sports/GT owner "wants" less power?

The 2.4L engine was on the other hand - driven by Mr. Katayama insisting that the US market demanded larger more powerful engines. He got his wish first in the PL 510 with the L16 and then with the 240-Z's L24.

If we must rate the to engines as either superior or inferior - then yes, we would have to conclude that the Fairlady Z got the inferior engine. It has less torque, less horsepower and it puts out significantly more greenhouse gases that pollute the atmosphere than the US spec. L24. (with no offsetting weight savings from using a smaller displacement).

AT> This was - in all respects apart from its 2 litre engine - of EQUAL or SUPERIOR spec. AT> to the USA model HLS30.

Come on Alan - the heart of any sports car is its engine! The 2.4L in-line six with 150HP (SAE) was one of the major factors that sat the Datsun 240-Z apart from it's competition.

- It was the "240-Z" that Nissan won the East African Safari Rally with.

- It was the "240-Z" that Nissan won the C-Production Championships with.

AT> How on earth can you posit that the USA-market model HLS30 was

AT> in any way superior to the RHD cars EXCEPT in its engine spec.?

In the first place - I never said that the 240-Z was "superior" (although it was - more power and less pollution). Also which RHD car are you referring to in this case - S30, HS30, S30S, PS30....???

What I said was the 240-Z was specifically designed for the US market - and every other variation was simply a side benefit to Nissan of no where near the significance in the overall scheme of things.

AT> You are ignoring the fact that these models were arguably better

AT> at being "sports" cars than the USA models.

I think your being silly now... Besides, the Z is a "Sports/GT". The "GT" part is as important, if not more so, in the US market than the "sports" part. Remember, the Z was designed based on US customer defined quality.

AT> Nissan ( probably at Katayama's behest ) gave you a four-speed

AT> and matching diff ratio,

If you don't have enough torque - you have to add gears to the tranny and teeth to the ring and pinion. Additional moving parts reduces reliability and increases cost. Do you really think lower rear end ratio's and a five speed is "better"? It's not - its a compromise for loss of torque in the Fairlady and it was simply a local market preference in the HS30's. There was no customer demand for five speed transmissions here in the US in 1970.

There is no question that Nissan gave the US customers what they wanted. If they wanted a five speed - it was easy to order it over the Parts Counter and simple to install.

I'd guess that at least 90% of the 240-Z's sold in the US - stayed with the 4spd. until they were driven into the ground by their owners. No doubt when the new "B" style 5spd. came out in the 280Z here - and it was time to replace the worn out transmissions on the then old 240-Z's - many of us opted to install the over-drive 5spd.

AT> softer springs and dampers and no rear anti-roll bar. This was a

AT> car MADE for the USA? I don't think so.

If you don't think so - you don't really know anything about this market. It was made to suit American Consumers - driving under normal American driving conditions. "Market specific" design and engineering at its best.

We have excellent high speed freeways, excellent secondary roads and streets. We like a softer and more comfortable ride quality in our GT's.

In 1970 if you wanted a harsh, jerky ride - you bought an MG:-)

AT> The USA-market HLS30 was a spec. that was aimed at a certain market,

AT> but you can't say that the layout of the car made any sense in LHD form.

"the layout of the car" - what in the world are you talking about?

Let me guess ;-)

When you pull up to the gas pumps at your local petro station - do you like having to open the drivers door against the pump island and squeezing out between the car and pump island? (we have our gas filler on the right side of the car - where the gas pumps are - and we have plenty of room to get in and out of the car on the left. I suppose you could pull up with the pumps on the Left - but then you'd have to pull the gas hose across the car to reach the filler. I would think that if the car was designed as a RHD model - it would have been a better design to put the gas filler neck on the Left side of the car.

In a more general sense - I like left hand drive cars. I like using my right hand to work all the controls that are normally centered in any car... radio, heater, AC, GPS, Cell Phone, shift lever.. I guess one can get used to using one's left hand for all that - but most people in the world are right handed and their left hand isn't as precise. Give any design Engineer a choice of where to put controls for good human factors considerations and you will find that they always put them on the "right". That's one reason that Command Pilots fly in the Left Seat no matter what country they are from.

I really can't think of anything related to the "layout" of the 240-Z that I would change.

AT> The layout of the engine and trans forced the controls of the driver's

AT> side to avoid the induction and exhaust manifolds. Sorry - but that's a

AT> fact that was forced on the designers because they had to work with

AT> what was available to them.

Completely irrelevant and an incorrect assumption. There is plenty of room

for the steering mechanism (if that is what you mean). Even room for a Turbo set up!!

AT> I posit that if the S30-series Z car was, as you quoted,

AT> "An American Sports Car - made in Japan" - then they would

AT> have made a better job of the LHD version. You can think about

AT> that every time you go to use your E-brake.

That's just too funny Alan;-) Think about that for a minute. In an "emergency" if you had to stop your Z with only a hand actuated mechanical brake - which hand would you rather grab that brake handle with? - Your stronger Right Hand - or your weaker Left Hand? If I was designing a RHD car - I'd put that e-brake handle on the right side of the drivers seat.

In a non emergency - just sitting, and later releasing, the "parking brake" - do you really prefer to use your weak arm?

Your cruising along in your GT - do you really like having that e-brake handle obstructing your reach for all the controls in the center of the car? - Do you really like having it rub your left leg as you drive hundreds or thousands of miles?

In the LHD 240-Z's that e-brake handle is exactly where I would have put it - I most certainly would not want it on the right side of the center console either.

Sorry Alan - your observations about the layout of the HLS30 are simply too far fetched to make any sense to me.

Now lets get serious about the design criteria.

1. The design team on Project Z - used US spec, human factors. A human considerably larger than the Japanese spec. As an example -the Silvia was a complete FLOP in the US because the Goertz design - was based on the human factors of the typical Japanese and the car therefore provided too little leg and head room for Americans.

2. The 2.4L in-line six - Mr. Matsuo has stated that for the Japanese market he would have used a 2.0L four cylinder (from the Fairlady 2000). The Z is a six cylinder because it was designed to meet the needs the US market.

3. The 240-Z was engineered to meet the US Safety and Emissions Standards. They "drove" many design and engineering considerations.

The Fairlady Z's are interesting and they allowed Nissan to sell a few more cars in their home market - but your assertion that they were "as important", "as significant" or evenly weighted in the design consideration of the Z - are simply - well - your opinion. However I would suggest that your opinion is not based on any real facts nor sound logic.

Lets get real Alan. It's not about a US ("devil") vs the world. It's not about the Japanese putting the British Sports Cars out of business. It's not about the 240-Z being "superior" to the home market "Fairlady". It most certainly isn't about any Japanese owners thinking their "Fairlady Z" is the "original" or that it is "superior" to the product designed for the US.

It was all about Nissan vs Toyota - Nissan vs GM - Nissan vs Ford etc. It was all about building and selling cars that the target customers wanted to buy. It was all about "customer driven quality definitions".

I doubt that anyone over 25 years old in Japan really feels that by building and selling products aimed specifically at the US market - they are selling out to the US devil ;-)

FWIW,

Carl B.

[kats]

Hello everyone,

I am very exciting about this thread.Thank you Alan and Carl,you

are making this topics very very hot.

I must reply for many things,let me tell all of you anything in my mind,maybe out of sequence or does not make sence because my poor english,please be patiant.

I got the data of S30's production number from NISSAN SHATAI.This company has been making cars for NISSAN for long time.Not every cars of NISSAN but the Z,they made.

The word"SHATAI" can be divided into"SHA"means car and "TAI"means body.So you can imagine what this company produce.Alan and Carl know about this company very well, do not you?

Why I got this is I am preparing for writing an article about S30 for japanese magazine,will be issued next year.I am not a jornalist, my job is completely defferent.I am just a man loves S30 so much.I have been wanted correct data of production numbers especialy S30's early days.So I thought again and again.

Carl,I knew there are no nice(interesting) official data from NISSAN.Because I have been reading again and again about your information on your web.And I still appreciate with your kindness about answerd for my question which I made before.

First I visited an office of Mr.YOSHIHIKO MATSUO needless to say he is known as S30's chief designer.His office is in TOKYO not a big room but a very nice place to visit.I have been keeping in touch with him since 2000 LAS VEGAS Z car convention.

I was very very surprised he stocks so many photos of S30's styling study cray models and drawings.What a lucky man I am,I did not count them but roughly there are over 100 positive photo films in his room.

He said,"I have been loving cameras,ofcource during developing S30's styling as well.I took so many photos because I was so confident about this car would be a mile stone not only for NISSAN but also for the world.At that time I did not want to feel sad when the time comes then hey,what a stupid if there woud be no photos proving my hard work."

I am sorry for deviating from the topic,but I want to say and make sure to everyone in the world that Mr.MATSUO is a real chief designer of S30. We should never mention about Mr.Albreht Georlz.He did nothing about S30's styling.Yes he taught how to develop car styling for NISSAN's young car designer,but he did not teach nor suggest nor instruct "how to make S30".These are proved by many many photos in Mr.MATSUO's room.In these photos,there are some designers I can see.Always Mr.MATSUO and other crew there,but never seen Mr.Albreht Georlz,it is clear that he did not touch any cray models nor even draw any styling pictures.Mr.MATSUO said Mr.Albreht Georlz had left well before when Mr.MATSUO and other crew had started S30's styling study and there were no message(instruction) from Mr.Albreht Georlz about S30's styling.

I want to put some prototype photos which I got from him,but I have to get a permition from him first.They are very very interesting and lots of ones never seen in some books before.I must say those positive films which Mr.MATSUO holds are color,not monoclo which we can see in some books.You will see how the S30 was developed and what things were defferent from actual sold model.The highlight is a prototype S30 which is silver,exterior panels are made of plastic, no engine and drive train but it got completely interior parts.As I see it,everything has already fixed(I mean body panel's shape and interior parts)except engine and drivetrain and exterior badges. Mr.MATSUO said this was built in april 1968 this is very important because most of parts were already manufacured such as seat belts,seat trims,dash,shift knob and so on.Even I can see hub caps they got "D" on its center.At that time the name of car was not fixed yet but hub caps was decided already,this is interesting.But you know,the car seen on ROAD and TRACK dated Jan 1970 issued did not got "D" on hub caps.There must be another story.That silver prototype is right hand drive, only got C-piller emblem but defferent design.DATSUN logo on the steering hone pad,there are two switches for parking and fog lamps.You will see 4 very small extra tyres under floor pans for moving this prototype.

Bytheway,Mr.MATSUO told me steering wheel is made of wood and plastic.I saw this topic on the web before,"real wood or plastic?"He said this technology was a very special of another japanese company,they use real wood over the metal core and pooring lickid plastic then pressed with very strong forece.So the steering wheel is made of real wood,but same time made of plastic.

Let me resume own navigation,I am telling about production numbers for 1969.Mr.MATSUO told me if I wanted to know about it,you could ask NISSAN SHATAI.I made an appointment early this month then I met Mr.HITOSHI UEMURA and EIJI OSAWA at NISSAN SHATAI office in KANAGAWA prefecture,

They are the crew who tested two silver 240Z in the U.S. and CANADA.They gave me a data of production numbers of S30 AND, they showed me a 30 minutes long video of test driving over there in OCT through DEC 1969.Actualy Mr.OSAWA was taking a 8mm video camera it was his duty also he took photos during operation.They also showed me so many photos almost same scene on the video.Alan put some photos here,they are exactly the ones which Mr.OSAWA took.Those photos and videos are very beautiful color films.I was so much impressed about them.Just so beautiful.The video did not got voice,I guess in 1969 standard?

The video starts from a map of U.S. then titled "test driving 270 in north american".You may know 270 is a code number for the S30 in the factory,we still can see this number on the back of exterior badge.I did not make confirm about this to anybody,I will ask Mr.MATSUO or someone soon.Please stay tune.

And mentioned about crew members,then listed two 240Z...... "SEISAN SHISAKU #14 HL270 U" and "SEISAN SHISAKU #15 HL270 UA". I told about SEISAN SHISAKU is production prototype.This #14 and #15 does not mean HLS30 00014 nor 00015.Carl,you are right, I was mistaking about counting.There are 11 S30s in JUL through AUG 1969.Not 11 240Zs.According to the data,I think SEISAN SHISAKU #14 and #"15 must be HLS30-00004 and 00005 produced in SEP 1969.

Now I am staying an hotel for my job,tomorrow I will be at home, I can put a photo of actual data seat.This is can be seen because I already got permition from them.

Continue about the video,then I saw the big track carrying two wood compartments,a lift loader put them land on the ground,5 or 6 people get togetherd and breaking box,I saw Mr. UEMURA and Mr.OSAWA and Mr.KATAYAMA!! he must be 60 years old at that time. While they were breaking box,the new and very clean,beautiful silver 240Z come out!!This is the most exciting moment while I was watching the VIDIO.

Two silver 240Zs and one red 510 were running from L.A. to Bakersfield first(I feel some destiny because I was living there in 1994 through 1996).There are good up slope between L.A. for testing,NISSAN's test crew always thought the car which they made must can climb this up hill easily.It is a kind of goal for them long time ago.They tested in the U.S. before the Z.Then they went to death valley for Hight temp.operation.Then they went to newolrinse,back to L.A. then sanfrancisco then into CANADA.They showed me a hand drawing of 240Z's tracking route on the map,I will put this also tomorrow.

That is all for today,I have to sleep.

Good night,

kats

[Bambikiller240]

kats:

Thank You So Much for all of the information that you are giving to us!! I look forward any additional information you are able to get permission to post, and to the continuation of this thread by all who have information to share.

PS: I KNEW the steering wheel had to be made of "wood AND plastic" (having broken one in an accident and observing the interior structure). It looked like wood that had been soaked to the core with resin or plastic. You could see the wood fibre, splinters, etc.; but it was not "plain, untreated" wood internally.

[HS30-H]

Kats,

You are doing a wonderful job. Everybody will be happy that you are sharing this with us, thank you!

It was really sad that NISSAN SHATAI became a victim of Nissan's financial troubles and the subsequent restructuring of the company. I felt sorry that all that history was going to waste......

Keep up the good work!

At this point I would like to put something on the record. I was fascinated and pleased to see the first post from Kats, and in fact Kats mentioned me by name in his post ( as I'm sure he knew I would be drawn to it like a magnet! ). When I made my first post in reply I expressed my pleasure that the figures demonstrated that RHD cars were being prototyped and pre-productioned AT THE SAME TIME as the LHD ( Export ) models. Many times in the past I have tried to get this point across to people who thought that this was not the case. There seems to be a widely held, but nonetheless mistaken belief that the RHD models were some sort of afterthought, and that as the car was ".....made for the USA market..." it must automatically follow that all the designs and prototypes for the car must have concentrated on the LHD model. Indeed, many seem to express great surprise when they see any pictures of the RHD prototypes and pre-production mules. Kats has supplied figures from Nissan Shatai that show the number of RHD models made in 1969, and to many this will be a big surprise.

It is to my great regret that the thread subsequently turned into an extremely wordy battle between myself and Carl Beck. When I look back at the whole thread now, it looks kind of polluted. These battles of ego and wit can get ugly, and I think the thread that Kats started should really deserve better. I'm sorry about that, but for my part I must say that I can't leave the RHD ( mostly Japanese domestic market ) models to be fobbed off as some kind of unworthy runts of the litter. That's why my claws come out, and I perhaps overstate my case a little. This does not mean my opinions are ALL incorrect ( IMHO:classic: ) but it does mean that things can get a little heated.

Some of you might detect a little hostility towards Carl Beck on my part and I have to apologise for that ( if you didn't notice, well that's good! ). However, this seed was planted quite some time ago when I contacted Carl to ask his opinion on some matters - Carl is undoubtedly one of the foremost authorities on the HLS30 model that was sold to the US market. I'm sorry to say that I came away from my correspondence with Carl feeling somewhat insulted by his replies to my honest queries and nonplussed at his attitude regarding the non-HLS30 models and all the Japanese Domestic models in particular. This was a great disappointment, and I'm afraid it tends to colour my correspondence with him......................

There is however some common ground. Carl has been one of the most vocal debunkers of what he calls "The Goertz Myth", and three cheers to him for that. This is something that I have been trying to convince people of since my first trip to Japan in the mid-Eighties. I was 'educated' about who actually designed the car very quickly by my Japanese friends, and I learned all about Matsuo san and his team. Its still hard to get people to believe it, but Goertz has been a total cad. I really hope that more and more people will gradually get the message about Matsuo san and his team, and Carl's writing on the subject ( at www.zhome.com ) will be instrumental in that process.

Just wanted to put that on record ( FWIW:ermm:).

Sorry for helping to mess up your nice thread Kats....

Alan T.