production number for 1969

[240260280]

Many may find this excerpt interesting. It demonstrates how Nissan had to adapt Datsun products to North America well before the Z sports car was designed specifically for the North American market. (To replace their only sports car (roadster) in its biggest market) :

Source: http://datsunforum.com/datsun-discovered-america-part-3/

Masataka Usami, a Nissan executive who lived in Greenwood Lake, New Jersey, and whose own car would not start in cold weather, reported back to Tokyo that Nissan could not have a car that started only two out of ten times. Tokyo was not very helpful. The alleged starting problems were impossible, the home office insisted, since it had checked Hokkaido – Japan’s northernmost island, where Datsuns started without difficulty – was just as cold as New Jersey. Usami replied that in Hokkaido those few Japanese who were privileged to own cars lovingly put blankets over the hoods every night. Tokyo asked why Americans didn’t do the same thing. Usami explained that to the Japanese a car was a privilege, but to Americans it was an appliance, and they expected it to work without pampering.

I had the same experience first hand when I worked nearly 5 years for a Chinese company who designed and produced international products that were not selling here in North America. No one in head office listened to anyone in North America whether they were local or transferred from HQ. It ultimately caused so many missteps that the company had to pull out of this market. Nissan obviously did not do this and adapted their products to the North American market; otherwise they would have failed like the company I worked for.

In the early to mid-sixties, it is because of Mr. K's perseverance, automotive knowledge, powers of observation, intuitiveness, logic, understanding of people, understanding of customer needs, and international corporate skills  that he was able to align Nissan HQ with the North American market. The products followed suit and sold well.

 

For being accused of turning up "late to the discussion":

It is in the spirit of accuracy and adding new and useful content that I am contributing to old posts.  This is very important for the organization of content on forums for the benefit of others who come across these threads in the future. The thread should be complete with the information contained within it, not scattered throughout the forum. People  are not visiting this forum to look at time stamps.  I have done this (updated old internet posts) on the technical side of Z's for nearly 14 years. My interests have changed slightly as I am now delving into the history and design of the Z; however, I am doing the same as I always did with respect to posting information helpful to others.  With so much great historical and design data on this forum over the years from you, Carl, Kats, Chris, Mike and many others, it is difficult to find new and interesting content to add (as most has been put forth);however, even though I am "late to the game", I am fortunate to contribute some new data in this area that I hope others can enjoy.

I think you may have enjoyed this example: http://www.classiczcars.com/topic/33633-24th-october-1969-the-s30-series-z-public-debut/?page=2#comment-509152

 

Edited January 13, 2017 by 240260280

[HS30-H]

13 minutes ago, 240260280 said:

In the early to mid-sixties, it is because of Mr. K's perseverance, automotive knowledge, powers of observation, intuitiveness, logic, understanding of people, understanding of customer needs, and international corporate skills  that he was able to align Nissan HQ with the North American market. The products followed suit and sold well.

Single handedly? Of course not. This is just the usual Katayama cult-of-personality type hyperbole that gets thrown around, and it is nonsense. Katayama was a great man, but there were plenty of other people within Nissan who clearly understood what was needed and were actively working towards achieving it.

Anecdotes such as Usami san's (regarding batteries, Hokkaido and blankets) should not be swallowed whole. Anybody living in Hokkaido in the period concerned (and as they do today) would have received their Nissan product with a Winter Pack spec, which included a much beefier battery. Putting a blanket over a bonnet/hood or engine would not be much help, and removing a frozen blanket (after getting rid of half a metre of snow) would not be much fun.     

What the Datsunforums article claims the USA was demanding (and, rather chauvinistically, what "...Japan was not yet ready for") was what pretty much the whole of the developed world was hoping for at the time. Viewing Nissan's history solely through the prism of the USA market - and as Katayama's personal odyssey - is a mistake.

[240260280]

Of course not for Mr. K. to single handily do this. He was a great leader and catalyst  but he needed the opportunities, timing, a great team, a dynamic company and a lot of luck too.

I agree on the blanket blurb... seemed daft to me too.

It is interesting how different regions deal with things.  When I was living in Ireland, I would often see people pouring pans of hot water on their wind screens to de-ice. It worked quickly.  Here in eastern Canada, we scrape the ice and often flick the wipers up before parking at night.... or some have remote starters and turn their vehicles on to warm up while inside the house 5min before driving away.  I believe now there are even newer chemical products that you can put on your windows to reduce ice adherence. I think even a piece of plastic or cardboard over it can trap enough heat  and block the moisture to make clearing easier. In Quebec where there is a lot more snow and colder winters, people commonly erect car tents in their driveways to mitigate the snow on the car. In Central and Northern Canada (and throughout when owning a heat-cycle diesel), many use block heaters and plug their car in at night. Every region seems to have their own tricks. I am sure those in Hokkaido and in Canada have converged in their techniques by now.

Edited January 13, 2017 by 240260280

[HS30-H]

49 minutes ago, 240260280 said:

For being accused of turning up "late to the discussion":

It is in the spirit of accuracy and adding new and useful content that I am contributing to old posts.  This is very important for the organization of content on forums for the benefit of others who come across these threads in the future. The thread should be complete with the information contained within it, not scattered throughout the forum. People  are not visiting this forum to look at time stamps.  I have done this (updated old internet posts) on the technical side of Z's for nearly 14 years. My interests have changed slightly as I am now delving into the history and design of the Z; however, I am doing the same as I always did with respect to posting information helpful to others.  With so much great historical and design data on this forum over the years from you, Carl, Kats, Chris, Mike and many others, it is difficult to find new and interesting content to add (as most has been put forth);however, even though I am "late to the game", I am fortunate to contribute some new data in this area that I hope others can enjoy.

I was referring specifically to your Japanese gasoline stand post. You are - indeed - late to the party, and you appear to have completely missed the point. What does your photo bring to the discussion? Does anybody think there wasn't a wide variety of gasoline stand layouts in Japan during that period and now? I was recalling a particular type of pump which did - and still does - exist:

The point you appear to have missed is that the whole thing is a MacGuffin anyway. Carl Beck was trying to link the fuel tank filler location on the S30-series Z to LHD-specific requirements, but the punchline is that it is - yet another - example of Design Concession. The fuel tank filler is offset to the right side of the car, and the fuel filler is on the right side of the car, because it is leaving space for the exhaust system. The exhaust system is on the left side of the engine, and exits on the left side of the car. The L-gata engine was not designed specifically for the USA market...  

[240260280]

I actually like the fuel filler on the driver's side. More convenient and easy to see out of rear view mirror on an unfamiliar rental when you pop it approaching a service station.   Back in the 60's I do not think there were many self-serve stations in existence so the point is moot in Japan and the USA.

Iterations of the Z prototypes and clay model leading up to the final have the exhaust on left, right, and both.

It seems to be logical that in the end, the L engine dictated the side of the car which the exhaust pipe would run. It also makes it easier to fit the muffler on one side and the fuel filler pipe on the other. By late 60's there may have been regulations regarding this as well or it was just good practice (but smoking in the back seat of a 510 with your back against a fuel tank seems to point to no rules about fuel storage near points of ignition).

Most Nissan cars leading up to the Z have the exhaust on the left and filler on the right but there are exceptions.

[kats]

Hi , I need everyone’s help to find out when Z432 PS30-00023 were made .

 What I am scratching my head for is , PS30-00028, 53, 55, 61, 62, 63 they all have a bracket for the master VAC hose . And PS30-00023 will probably be the same . 
I thought this bracket is not for most of the 69 cars , and PS30-00023 and 00028 look early enough for No- bracket car . 

The production figures which I have got Mr. Uemura and Mr.Osawa showed that Dec 1969 , 688 cars for domestic, only 97 cars for export. 
688 was almost Triple of the number for domestic in November. 

For export, in November 388 , then stalled to 97 in December.

The feedback from the test run in US & Canada might affect assembly lines , I guess they switched making domestic cars more instead of making export cars.

Thinking about Z432 , up to PS30-00072 is 1969 car ( according to the Japan automobile Industry cooperation) .

I was expecting approximately 25 Z432s a month from October to December. So , PS30-00053 have the bracket that makes sense to me . 
But PS30-00023 and 28 , were they made in late November or December? 

If the bracket for the master VAC hose started to attached from late November or early December, and PS30-00023 has the bracket, then we see Z432 PS30-00023 to 72 ( there would be others of course) were finished assembling in late November or December 1969 . 
 

@26th-Z @MikeB @240260280, could you show us your 1969 car’s bracket, and also I want to see the bracket for the metal band for the Jack stowed. 

Very early cars have this unique shape bracket on the floor , behind the passenger seat.
 

Kats

 

 

[26th-Z]

HLS30U-00027 has the brackets.  Pictures attached.  I'll see 26th later this morning and take pictures.  Sorry for the rusty photographs.  26th is looking much better.

[26th-Z]

Just returned from the body where I snapped these pics of 26th.  The shape of the bracket for the master vac hose is not as defined as on 27th.  Also, the tool bracket is not bent over like the bracket on 27th.

[kats]

9 hours ago, 26th-Z said:

Just returned from the body where I snapped these pics of 26th.  The shape of the bracket for the master vac hose is not as defined as on 27th.  Also, the tool bracket is not bent over like the bracket on 27th.

Thank you so much Chris! 
That is what I want to see . 
26th and 27th both have a unique metal tab behind the passenger seat, and no- bracket ( I mean no -ordinary bracket) for the master vac hose. 

And I see the bar- type panel  press indent near the jack holder bracket, this is new to me . Maybe it would be a signature of ultra early car , what do you think about it? 
 

Now I’m curious about when was the boundary for the cars which have this unique jack holder bracket associated with a master vac hose bracket. 
 

We need more examples.

Kats

Edited March 23, 2022 by kats

[kats]

Hi, this old thread still needs update!

Thank you dspillman, your beautiful  HLS30-00051 showing some interesting facts. 

I have been talking about dents on the floor with Chris in Netherlands(S30WORLD), he has tremendous experiences of early cars. He taught me the difference. Really early cars have dents upward!

I see the dents on the rear floor of HLS30-00051 were pushed upward from underneath of the floor. On the other hand, PS30-00028, 00047 have the dents pushed downward like later cars. 

I came to conclusion that Z432 was not many in October 1969. Total 72 Z432 including some Z432R were made in 1969. Most of them must have been made in November and December 1969.

Remember the volume of production for export 240Z in December significantly lower than previous month. Probably the test reports from the US&Canada might have affected it. 

When the line workers suddenly became had nothing to do, they might have found ‘it’s time to make domestic S30 cars!’ 

So now I am clear why PS30-00028 has the bracket for the master vac hose unlike other really low chassis number cars. I guess it like this, 

S30-00028 & HLS30-00028 must have been made in October 1969.(can’t tell which one is earlier though)

PS30-00028 must have been made in November or December 1969.

HS30-00028 must have been made in  middle of 1970.

This is so interesting to me! I am still thrilled finding and learning new things here, thank you everyone!

Kats

PS,

Mr.Miyazaki (engineer of development team of S30) said that difference seen on the dents might have been related that transition of the huge metal press machine occurred in Nissan. Mr.Miyazaki said ‘First, Nissan pressed the steel panels for S30 cars, soon they let Nissan Shatai pressed the steel panels. The press machine of Nissan was a lot huge than the one in Nissan Shatai. I can’t remember when but the transition was made in really early days’

Edited Thursday at 06:57 AM by kats

[HS30-H]

6 hours ago, kats said:

I came to conclusion that Z432 was not many in October 1969. Total 72 Z432 including some Z432R were made in 1969. Most of them must have been made in November and December 1969.

That's not so surprising really for the top-of-the-range 432 and the race-oriented 432-R. Both were specialised/limited market variants with lower expectation for sales volume. When you think about it, 72 cars would have been quite a lot for initial sales and for dealer requirements in late 1969 and very early 1970.

6 hours ago, kats said:

Remember the volume of production for export 240Z in December significantly lower than previous month. Probably the test reports from the US&Canada might have affected it. 

I'm still not clear as to which particular 'problems' uncovered on the 'Kaku U' trips could have been serious enough to halt or slow down production specifically of the Export /HLS30 variants, but not the Domestic variants. I don't think it was the L24 crankshaft counterweight issue as that took well into 1970 production to remedy. Uemura san's 'snagging' list doesn't seem to mention anything I can see as serious enough to halt production. Most of the items in his list are fairly trivial and would apply to other variants too.   

6 hours ago, kats said:

Mr.Miyazaki (engineer of development team of S30) said that difference seen on the dents might have been related that transition of the huge metal press machine occurred in Nissan. Mr.Miyazaki said ‘First, Nissan pressed the steel panels for S30 cars, soon they let Nissan Shatai pressed the steel panels. The press machine of Nissan was a lot huge than the one in Nissan Shatai. I can’t remember when but the transition was made in really early days’

If you remember Kats, I was present when Miyazaki san was telling us that. I think I pointed out that the indentations (they are location markers for brackets and other fixtures that will be added to the pressed panel at a later stage) would either be part of the press tooling for the whole panel (in which case they would be very difficult to change) or they would be pressed into the panel on another - separate - press tool (in which case they would be easier to change).

I can imagine - having been involved in the manufacture of press and mould tooling in my youth - that changes to large press tooling is something that a factory will try to avoid if at all possible (not least due to down time) but if the location marker indentations were made on separate, second stage presses then the tooling would be easier to modify. Pressing the indentations from a different side of the panel must surely have required changes to press tooling and I wonder if the use of different press machinery (at Nissan Shatai rather than Nissan Honsha?) was the reason for the switch? I can imagine (yes, I'm doing quite a lot of imagining here...) that the guys running the press shop at Nissan Shatai might have had their own opinions and techniques and could see a way to improve/speed up the process. Just about every good engineer I've worked with has seen a way to improve on somebody else's work! Same goes for Barbers, Tailors and Builders...