What are these for?

[Carl Beck]

Hi Alan (everyone):

While that mounting point was certainly used for several things as we can see...

My guess would be that it was originally included on every car - as an attachment point - for an assembly line fixture. Makes no sense to include it on every car so that 1/10 of 1% could mount options - does it?

Do you have any pictures of the Z's coming down the assembly line - and being sat down on top of the completed drive-trains/suspensions? My guess would be that you would see an overhead fixture suspending the body shells (already painted) at that point...

In a normal assembly line process (normal for Ford/GM at least) a "fixture" would have been bolted into both sides of the car - the two holes (not the bolt mounting points) in your picture - would be for male alignment studs - that would line the fixture up so the bolts would quickly be screwed in...

If you look at the picture of the attachment of the roll bar - just picture a fixture like that - only turning out through the quarter window - where it would be grabbed by overhead lifts - to suspend the body in mid air.

If you have a bare body shell - you'll see that you can balance the body shell on one cross brace at that location - it runs through (but not quite) the center of gravity for the bare body.

Of course I could be completely wrong - but like I said, I can't see them welding nuts on every car (an expensive extra production step) - for an option so rarely found on any completed units.

FWIW,

Carl

Carl Beck

Clearwater, FLA USA

http://ZHome.com

[kmack]

Interesting point, Carl.

Alan,

Another question. Do you know of anybody making those style mounting plates? Btw, thanks for the pictures. Those really helped.

Also, what do think the thickness of the metal would be? I would think anything more than 1/8" thick would be overkill.

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by Carl Beck

My guess would be that it was originally included on every car - as an attachment point - for an assembly line fixture. Makes no sense to include it on every car so that 1/10 of 1% could mount options - does it?

Carl Beck

Clearwater, FLA USA

http://ZHome.com

Since these captive nuts were welded onto the panel BEFORE the bodyshell was put together ( impossible to weld them into a closed-off panel ), it means that Nissan Shatai would have had to have had TWO piles of panels; one type for markets that did not get the Sports Option list, and one type for markets that did.

I'm not surprised that they chose to attach them to ALL market panels, as it would solve any possibility of mix-ups at the same time as allowing the use of the Sports Option roll over bar should anyone wish to fit one at a later date.

Sure they COULD have been used as body fixture mounts, but next time you have the trim off a car you might like to have a close look at them. Notice that ( usually ) the nuts have been painted in the same grey panel primer as the inside of the panel ( suggesting that they were on there when the primer was applied - probably when the panel was sub-assembled and closed off ). Notice also that this primer can sometimes be seen to have covered the thread of the nuts ( it has on several that I have looked at ) and that any fixture bolted into these after priming would surely have taken some of this out ( no? ). Note also that the body colour paint ( car interior side ) usually covered by the trim under the quarter window completely covers this are ( look at my first photo ). This means there could not have been a fixture attached to it while that paint was being applied.

Carl, you are looking down the wrong end of that telescope again. You talk about percentages of Export and Domestic cars, but you forget that at the start of production these percentages were NOT a foregone conclusion. We know that they were HOPING to sell a great number of cars to the US market, but they did not KNOW that it would be that kind of percentage. Hence a number of details that were perhaps not totally necessary on the Export cars were carried onto the basic design and shared by all models.

If you want an example of this, take a look at the extra windsreen wiper mount holes pressed into the panel that holds the windscreen wiper spindles. Configured for use in both LHD and RHD wiper orientation. What were those percentages again? I suggest you also look at the rear wishbones for evidence of the rear anti-roll bar end link attachment points, as your early US market cars were not actually fitted with rear anti-roll bars, but I believe they still had the hole and spot-welded strengthener.

But why are you even approaching the subject in this way? There were LHD Works FIA rally cars that used the Sports Option roll over bar, so the mounting holes certainly do NOT form any kind of ammunition for a LHD vs RHD argument.

If the captive nuts in question actually did get used as mounts for a jig or production line fixture, then that is of great interest. I want to know what every detail on these cars is for. What is without doubt is that they WERE used to mount part of the bracketry that supported the Sports Option roll over bar in the shell. Its a good and very strong design ( for the period ) that considerably beefs up the centre of the shell. I can't think of any other model of car that used captives already in EVERY shell as mounts for a Factory-supplied Sports Option roll-over bar.

Alan T.

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by kmack

Interesting point, Carl.

Alan,

Another question. Do you know of anybody making those style mounting plates? Btw, thanks for the pictures. Those really helped.

Also, what do think the thickness of the metal would be? I would think anything more than 1/8" thick would be overkill.

Hi Kmack,

I have been looking around for a long time for either a genuine Sports Option roll-over bar, or an accurate replica of one. Any genuine ones that I saw in Japan were MEGA expensive ( they are really very sought-after ) and the replicas were nothing like as good as the originals.

Therefore I have been collecting data to make my own, and have been able to use a genuine Sports Option bar and mount kit as reference. The finished item will go in my 432R replica project car.

If you want me to e-mail you more detailed pics and specs for the genuine item, then drop me a PM with the mail address which you would like me to send it to ( there are quite a few pics ).

It might be useful reference for you if you want to make your won version.

Best regards,

Alan T.

[EScanlon]

When I had my car to that point, I thought they would make EXCELLENT speaker mounts for an OUTRAGEOUS sound system.

Can you imaine? A pair of Bose 901 located just behind the seats, or a pair their Acoustimass with the woofer in the spare tire well.

Luckily, I didn't have the budget for a major high fidelity purchase.

2¢

[kmack]

The only issue I see with using these holes, is that you either have to not use the interior dog-leg panel at all, or put holes in it. Putting holes in that panel to me is not an option.

[Zedrally]

I think this is only half the story.

How did the factory cage mount in the dash area, or was this option a 1/2 cage?

MN

[HS30-H]

Hi Zedrally,

The early Sports Option roll over bars and the Works-modified versions of them were initially only a 'hoop' type. They mounted at the location shown above, and also had two 'drop' bars that came down from the hoop to the rear floor at a slight angle ( backwards ) - making them in essence a 'four-point' cage. These located into special brackets that were bolted into captives that had to be brazed into the floor. Yes - you could call this a 'half cage' and it really isn't very safe by modern standards.

Proper cages that had bars over the doors dropping down to the floor just before the dash ( with a little kink to follow the dash ) - making them six-point cages - did not come until '73 on the Works circuit race cars, and even later than that on the FIA Rally cars.

Alan T.

[carguyinok]

Do you have any pictures of the Z's coming down the assembly line - and being sat down on top of the completed drive-trains/suspensions? My guess would be that you would see an overhead fixture suspending the body shells (already painted) at that point...

I would like to see some assembly line photos aswell. That is one thing I have never seen that I feel alot of people here would enjoy. ANYONE have any?

[Zedrally]

So these early cages would have been homoligated, right?

[Zvoiture]

>>>>The early...bars and the Works-modified versions.... mounted at the location shown above, and also had two 'drop' bars ...- making them in essence a 'four-point' cage. These located into special brackets that were bolted into captives that had to be brazed into the floor. <<<<

So... the car had to be modified to install the bar. It was not a straight bolt-in. The assumption is the dogleg hoop mounting nuts are on every car only because it would be dificult to 'nut' the bolts later?

steve

[HS30-H]

Zedrally - This is indeed the factory-homologated type of roll-over bar that we are discussing. They were available to buy from Nissan in Japan ( through the Sports Option parts lists ) from early 1970 onwards.

Steve ( Zvoiture ), they COULD be considered a true 'bolt-in' part if the brackets that fixed the two centre drops to the floor were simply bolted in with nuts and bolts - rather than the 'Works' style of brazing in more captives and the reinforcing plates to the floor at those two points. All you needed to do was drill through the floor at those points and put the bolts through. Doing them up properly would be a four-hand operation though. The reinforcing plates just sandwiched between the floor and the nuts or bolts from the underside of the car.

I've spoken to friends in Japan about these captive nuts now, and they tell me that as far as they are aware the captive nuts in the shell are precisely for the purpose of mounting these cages. It was suggested in a previous post that they were originally jig or production line fixture mounts, and that the body may have been supported at these points as it went through some processes at the Factory. My friends tell me that the Z production line utilised cradle supports that went UNDER the body and supported it's weight from underneath. As far as they are concerned, the Z body was never supported or transported in any other way during the manufacturing process.

That's the fresh info I have and I thought it worth posting here. If anybody has any better information or interesting theories then I'm all ears and eyes.

Alan T.