'69 through '73 Steering Wheels - Wood, or Plastic?

[HS30-H]

5 hours ago, Johnny280 said:

But Goertz still designed our car - yes? 

Yes! And don't forget the "...For The USA!" part...

3 hours ago, Zed Head said:

Just a nomenclature thing here - "resin" would be considered plastic.  It is most likely a petroleum derived material, similar to what surfboards and boats are made from.

Tell that - just a few days after Christmas - to Frankincense and Myrrh. They'll Shellac you for it.

Seriously, we don't know what kind of 'resin' was used as a binding/curing agent here. We are guessing. But given Japan's long history with lacquerware ('Shikki') I would not necessarily bet against the binding/curing agent being plant-derived. Another guess yes, but one with some supporting evidence.

Incidentally, there's an old Japanese technique called 'Harinuki'/'Ikkan Bari' which is - in effect - paper composite. Japanese 'washi' paper was put into a mould or former and lacquer was applied in layers to 'cure' it into the desired shape. There was also a process called 'Shunkei Nuri' where wood was stained to bring out the grain and then lacquer applied in layers - sometimes with added metal flakes or shell fragments for decoration - to preserve the effect and make it water (or tea) proof. The artisans involved would probably find Izumi's wood composite work somewhat familiar, I should think. 

3 hours ago, Zed Head said:

Ultimately, the goal was to produce a product better than either wood or "plastic" alone.

I would respectfully add that we are missing two key points here. Volume production and cost.

Nissan specifically wanted wood steering wheels (they already had true 'Plastic' steering wheels for their more basic models, and they were made by a company called - wait for it - 'Nihon Plastics') but it was at that point fairly hard to mass-produce them. The traditional wooden steering wheel of the 50s and 60s was predominantly a low volume/hand made type of item attached to higher status/more sporting cars, or sold as a comparatively expensive aftermarket accessory with a brand name attached. Izumi's techniques allowed wood steering wheels to be mass produced (hundreds a day at least), and at a cost that made them viable for fitment as standard equipment. This is important.

       

Edited December 30, 2022 by HS30-H

[Zed Head]

A chemist could separate the wood fibers from the binder and analyze the binder.  It's not complicated and probably not too expensive.  Infrared analysis just needs a tiny sample.  Actually might not even need separating.  A chemistry student at any research university could probably get it done for free.  One path to knowing.  Like counting horse teeth.

[bartsscooterservice]

On 12/30/2022 at 1:20 AM, Zed Head said:

A chemist could separate the wood fibers from the binder and analyze the binder.  It's not complicated and probably not too expensive.  Infrared analysis just needs a tiny sample.  Actually might not even need separating.  A chemistry student at any research university could probably get it done for free.  One path to knowing.  Like counting horse teeth.

Let's do this, and clear the myth once and for all 😄

[dutchzcarguy]

1 hour ago, bartsscooterservice said:

Let's do this, and clear the myth once and for all 😄

I regret that i didn't save some of the parts i broke off of my old steeringwheel.. i remember it was very hard and looked like stone powder, but hard as rock..  thought it be a mix of poly and woodpowder then. You had to be careful not to cut yourself on that stuff!

Edited December 31, 2022 by dutchzcarguy

[HS30-H]

7 minutes ago, dutchzcarguy said:

I regret that i didn't save some of the parts i broke of my old steeringwheel.. i remember it was very hard and looked like stone powder, but hard as rock..  thought it be a mix of poly and woodpowder then. You had to be careful not to cut yourself on that stuff!

I invite you to take another look at the photos I posted at the beginning of this thread. Does that look like "stone powder" to you? How about "wood powder"? It's almost like you're talking about a different substance completely.

Mine has a clearly-visible structure of oriented strands and what might fairly be described as 'grain'. I'm pretty sure that if I showed it to anyone on the street in a blind tasting experiment they would say 'wood'. 

Why still this push-back on the nature of the majority component?

 

[HS30-H]

On 12/30/2022 at 12:20 AM, Zed Head said:

A chemist could separate the wood fibers from the binder and analyze the binder.  It's not complicated and probably not too expensive.  Infrared analysis just needs a tiny sample.  Actually might not even need separating.  A chemistry student at any research university could probably get it done for free.

1 hour ago, bartsscooterservice said:

Let's do this, and clear the myth once and for all 😄

There are several world-class research universities in my home city. In the new 2023 term I will ask about the possibility of testing. I doubt they would do it "for free", but I will approach them nonetheless.

 

[dutchzcarguy]

I could not see any grain in the parts i had i remember vividly.. maybe my wheel didn't have woodparts in it.. i don't know. it looked like hard powder.  (Can we stop about this topic? 🙂 )

[Zed Head]

There are several different perspectives someone might have about a project like that.  Reverse-engineering, a forensic analysis challenge, a training exercise for the use of characterization instruments, even an example of a "green" technology.  Or an early historical example of a wood-polymer composite.

If you make it apparent that you're not profiting from the work the resistance to doing it for free will be minimized.  It's a cool project related to a cool car.  Guaranteed to raise interest.  Even better, if a writeup of the work was done, shining some light on the university, everybody wins.

I would make it clear that the main question is about the type of binder used.  Is the binder a synthetic polymer or is it organically derived from wood itself?  One is realer than the other but neither produces 100% "real wood".  The issue of whether or not it should be called real wood will be irrelevant. 

[HS30-H]

50 minutes ago, Zed Head said:

I would make it clear that the main question is about the type of binder used.  Is the binder a synthetic polymer or is it organically derived from wood itself?  One is realer than the other but neither produces 100% "real wood".  The issue of whether or not it should be called real wood will be irrelevant. 

With all due respect, I don't think I'll be priming any independent research with your 'guidance'. One would - hopefully - imagine that a scientific examination wouldn't need any parameters - let alone restrictions - set by a third party.

I don't get your comments about "real wood". Are you still saying - after all this - that something other than "real wood" has been used here? What is the opposite of "real wood" anyway? Is "real wood" somehow too exotic a substance to have been used? I would err to the contrary. It makes complete sense to me.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I have to wonder what the definition of "real wood" means to you? What percentage of content in the finished product do you honestly think is wood/not wood?

Simply going on what I have in front of me, I would happily stand by my assertion that the majority percentage of the material content being discussed here is organic wood. I don't see any point in it all otherwise. Indeed, what's behind the pushback? Do people actually *want* it to be 'plastic'?

 

[Zed Head]

I offered a path to knowledge for those that want to know what, exactly, the steering wheel is made of.  Sorry that I placed it in your philosophical discussion thread about what "real wood" is.  

Anybody who has actually worked with wood, real wood directly from a tree, would not consider the wheel to be made of real wood.  It is made of wood, but the final product is not real wood.  

Just like in the construction industry, beams made of real wood glued together are not a considered or called a wood beam.  They are called laminated wood beams.  A fine distinction but informative.  It tells you what it is.

Real wood has inherent flaws, like susceptibility to swelling or rot from moisture, or shrinkage and warping from losing moisture, like in the hot environment of a car.

Your continuous arguing is ironic in that you seem to want to show and protect the superior qualities of the Z car yet you're arguing that the Z's "wood" steering wheel is made of an inferior material.  If it was real wood most of the wheels today wood be warped and cracked.  Like real real wood wheels.

People that know real wood understand its flaws and know what the term means.

https://www.timber-technologies.com/wood-products/laminated-beams/

[Zed Head]

Forgot to say that this thread is a lot like the premise for Blade Runner.  Do you just pretend it's real and enjoy it?  Does the truth really matter?  Love is love, right?

[Zed Head]

Here's some interesting discussion about nomenclature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultured_meat