Japanese RHD HS30 variations 70-74

[dspillman]

    I have found the chart KATS graciously uploaded in aug of 2019 here regarding the break down of Japanese models 240z, ZL, and ZG.     I'm not completely clear on the numbers represented and lines drawn showing the 3 models.

  Could use some help with deciphering this chart and accompanying paragraph, describing chart as well.

Are there truly no "hard" numbers to go by?   

  At first glance it appears the 240ZL group of cars is smaller then the 432 group.

   Surely this isn't true or is it something to discuss? 

Be Gentle if I'm off my rocker......      

I have searched and can't truly find detailed info.

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by dspillman

[HS30-H]

1 hour ago, dspillman said:

I have found the chart KATS graciously uploaded in aug of 2019 here regarding the break down of Japanese models 240z, ZL, and ZG.     I'm not completely clear on the numbers represented and lines drawn showing the 3 models.

  Could use some help with deciphering this chart and accompanying paragraph, describing chart as well.

Are there truly no "hard" numbers to go by?   

  At first glance it appears the 240ZL group of cars is smaller then the 432 group.

   Surely this isn't true or is it something to discuss? 

Be Gentle if I'm off my rocker......      

I have searched and can't truly find detailed info.

First of all, the chart (its from one of the Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. Japan 10 year report books) doesn't give a breakdown including PS30 and PS30-SB Fairlady Z432 and Fairlady Z432-R models, so they are not in that particular mix. The bars on the chart show total S30-prefixed production and the total (Japanese market only) HS30-prefixed production in proportion to eachother. Kats has marked in green the proportions of the HS30-prefixed cars at the top of the '71, '72 & '73 year bars. The numbers on the vertical axis are thousands of units.  

Secondly, the Japanese market L24-engined models (HS30-S 'Fairlady 240Z', HS30-D 'Fairlady 240Z-L' and HS30-H 'Fairlady 240ZG') were only sold from late 1971 through late 1973, and in parallel with the (four) Japanese market 2-litre models, so their uptake - being more expensive to buy and to own than two of the 2-litre models - was reduced. In fact, a fully optioned HS30-prefixed variant was a premium product in the Nissan showroom lineup. That explains somewhat why the proportions of L24-engined variants are smaller than the L20(A)-engined variants. 

As Kats pointed out, cashed-up buyers tended to choose the Fairlady 240ZG over the 'Standard' spec Fairlady 240Z and the 'Deluxe' spec Fairlady 240Z-L, probably because of its radical looks and the reflected glow of the factory race cars. By late 1971 the 432 and 432-R were already the best part of two years old, so not 'The New Thing'. The 240ZG itself was a 'Deluxe' model with all the bells and whistles of the 240Z-L, but the addition of that factory body kit, so buyers tended the leap-frog the 240Z-L. All these factors combined to make the 240Z-L a relatively rare choice then, and therefore a relatively rare car today.

Yes, there are no hard numbers for the breakdown of HS30-S, HS30-D and HS30-H production. The chart that Kats posted is a rare clue to totals, but it doesn't give hard numbers. The Japanese Motor Industry Association kept records of year-on-year batches of chassis numbers, broken down by chassis prefix. Therefore we know the chassis number ranges for each year of production for the Japanese market HS30-prefixed variants, but not the sub-variant (S,D,H suffix) breakdowns. 

Such is the mystique - and joy - of the Japanese market variants.

 

 

[dspillman]

Kats mention a 2600 total, that doesn’t correspond to the graph if in thousands on vertical axis.    
somewhat confusing 

Edited February 10, 2023 by dspillman
Spelling

[HS30-H]

14 hours ago, dspillman said:

Kats mention a 2600 total, that doesn’t correspond to the graph if in thousands on vertical axis.    
somewhat confusing 

I don't think the graph was designed to be taken too literally (it is more illustrative of increasing domestic consumption in the sporting car sector) but nevertheless I think the numbers roughly correspond with the graph.

[dspillman]

  It does appear that the graphed areas between the green lines marked in the 71, 72, 73  columns would equal approx 2600 or so.      The 1971 column green markings claiming That 175 cars were “HS30L” and “HS30ZG” of the 3900 total HS30 cars produced for 1971.    

    Likewise 1972 was approx 1200 out of 6500 were the L24 engined cars. “L”, “ZG”

      Further more that up to 80% of these L24 cars were ZG/HH ….  I’m hoping I’m saying this correctly from KATS post several years ago.  The source of the 80% number is unknown, and would be questioned if the production numbers were as poorly documented as what I’m reading.

I would actually think it closer to 90% would pay for the zg model after jumping the additional tax hurdle of that time.

    Quick math shows at 80/20 ratio that KATS claims there might have been 470 HS30 L versions total for those 3 years.      I we use the 90/10 that I think is possible then the 3 year total drops to 235 Deluxe or “L” models. 
 

     Rarity never determines desirability for sure, but the argument could be made in my opinion, that the “unknown” to most HS30-L model is the 2nd rarest model of the z/Fairlady z model run…. Behind only the R version of the 432

        For the last 45 years, I’ve always been attracted to the gnose version, only recently being made aware of the existence of the L version.     

   Yes, I have just purchased a legit L that looks like a legit zg, but the glovebox says differently.

   Sunday morning ramblings 

If discussed in the past with this direction of thought please direct me there.  
    I agree completely with HS30-H
     “Such is the mystique - and joy - of the Japanese market variants”

Edited February 12, 2023 by dspillman
Addition

[HS30-H]

1 hour ago, dspillman said:

It does appear that the graphed areas between the green lines marked in the 71, 72, 73  columns would equal approx 2600 or so.      The 1971 column green markings claiming That 175 cars were “HS30L” and “HS30ZG” of the 3900 total HS30 cars produced for 1971.    

    Likewise 1972 was approx 1200 out of 6500 were the L24 engined cars. “L”, “ZG”

Where are you getting the figure of "175 cars" from for 1971?

You seem to have left out the HS30-S 'Fairlady 240Z' ('HZS') model too.

In my experience, it is safer - and better for everybody - if we follow the naming/coding structure of the factory, using their 'Katashiki' charts. They can be a little inconsistent if you track them through the different Nissan publications (sales brochures, service manuals, parts lists etc) but there is a logic to them which makes sense to me. Hence I refer to:
*'HS30-S' Fairlady 240Z ('HZS') 'Standard' model.
*'HS30-D' Fairlady 240Z-L ('HZD') 'Deluxe' model.
*'HS30-H' Fairlady 240Z-G ('HZG') 'Grande Nose'/'Aerodyna' model.

...rather than terms such as "HS30L" and "HS30ZG" etc.  Note that there are extra suffixes to denote such as Automatic versions too. 

 

1 hour ago, dspillman said:

Further more that up to 80% of these L24 cars were ZG/HH ….  I’m hoping I’m saying this correctly from KATS post several years ago.  The source of the 80% number is unknown, and would be questioned if the production numbers were as poorly documented as what I’m reading.

I would actually think it closer to 90% would pay for the zg model after jumping the additional tax hurdle of that time.

    Quick math shows at 80/20 ratio that KATS claims there might have been 470 HS30 L versions total for those 3 years.      I we use the 90/10 that I think is possible then the 3 year total drops to 235 Deluxe or “L” models. 

This is just further conjecture, which is all well and good, but there really are no definitive breakdowns for the three variants of L24-engined models in hand yet. Kats believes - as do others, and at looking from what is left extant in Japan today as much as anything else - that the 'HS30-H' model was the best seller of the three. I'm inclined to agree. However we still don't know the hard numbers, so I believe it is a step too far to be putting numbers like "470", "235" and whatever else out there. Especially when you are extrapolating from a graph which was never intended to give such detail in the first place.

 

2 hours ago, dspillman said:

Rarity never determines desirability for sure, but the argument could be made in my opinion, that the “unknown” to most HS30-L model is the 2nd rarest model of the z/Fairlady z model run…. Behind only the R version of the 432

Again, I'm going to point out that you have not included the 'HS30-S' Fairlady 240Z 'Standard' model. It would make a good candidate for rarity simply because its de-contented 'Standard' spec was a slightly ill-fitting piece in the jigsaw puzzle that was the Japanese domestic market lineup. So it had the L24 engine (meaning extra purchase cost and extra licensing taxation cost because it exceeded the two litre tax band) but came with a 4-speed trans and very few bells and whistles. Alongside it in the showroom would be an 'S30-D' Fairlady Z-L (conforming to the two litre tax band) with a 5-speed trans and all the bells and whistles (headlamp covers, radio, hubcaps, stopwatch clock etc, even carpets!) and it would cost the new car buyer less overall - and ongoing - than the 'HS30-S'. It hardly looked any different than the more expensive Fairlady 240Z-L, so it would perhaps have made a better choice than the 'HS30-S', hence painting the 'HS30-S' into a corner that made it a rare choice, I'd say.

 

My advice is to just continue to research your car by looking at its details. There has obviously been a lot of customisation in its history, but you can pin down what is 'factory' and what is later addition/modification. Probably the best documentation of the car's original spec would be the Japanese title ('Shakken Sho') but I'm guessing it is long gone? You never know, some research into previous owners - particularly the person who originally imported the car from Japan - might provide some extra clues (it has been beneficial with my own Japanese market cars). Keep an open mind and perhaps don't try too hard to assign hard numbers where we don't know them yet.

Fun isn't it?!      

[dspillman]

I wrongly assumed the entire chart was registered in Japan…..   2600 cars for the entire country ….. over 3 year period. 
 

   Smack my head..  S30 equals not Japan…..

[HS30-H]

2 hours ago, dspillman said:

I wrongly assumed the entire chart was registered in Japan…..   2600 cars for the entire country ….. over 3 year period. 
 

   Smack my head..  S30 equals not Japan…..

You are correct, 'S30' equals not just Japan... and therein lies a story (shall we go there, considering this story is often painted as the story of 'the 240Z'?).

However, the graph/graphic you are citing refers only to the Japanese domestic market variants. No Export market variants included, because it is intended to indicate what was happening in Japan. 

[kats]

Thanks for referring my post dspillman, I am glad and surprised that there is such an enthusiastic S30 owner about Japanese version, “ Fairlady 240Z series”.

Alan said it all, thank you so much always. I don’t have a thing to add. 
About my “2600 Fairlady 240Z series “ , I tried re-readings from the book. I am sorry I can’t be more accurate. Total 2560 HS30 series in Japan, that is what I read. 
But this is just for fun ,please  don’t take it seriously, I should say that first in my old post. 
 

Also, my comment “ 80% of HS30 series in Japan would be a HS30–H “ this is just my guess. That number came from my entire experience, I review numerous pictures in my laptop and I counted the cars which I have seen in person and saw the cars on internet and books etc) .

I am dreaming about to see the documents about production numbers of our cars in the Nissan Shatai factory, but I may not be able to do. I just have fun with this.

Kats

Edited February 18, 2023 by kats

[kats]

This is a good information, interviews for Nissan engineers about Fairlady 240ZG by Motor Fan magazine April 1972.

it says “ talking about ZG, approximately 100 cars a month”

As a side note, at that time Nissan Shatai reached making 6000 S30 series cars a month. 
 

I think Fairlady  240Z series were made from Oct 1971 to Aug 1973, 23 consecutive months. So 100 HZG x 23 months =2300 HZG ,but I don’t think every month equally made.  It must have been slow in the beginning and the end of the production (people would want to wait buying until they see a new car if they were informed about it) .

So, 2560 x 0.8 = 2048, approximately 2050 HZG would have been made, just my guessing.

 I can’t recall exactly but I remember some people said that HZG was made approximately 2000 cars,don’t know how reliable the source was.

I love this conversation, interesting!

Kats

 

 

[dspillman]

         Thank you So much for adding to this discussion or better said "education of new HS30-10324 marked 240 DX owner". This car does appear to have a decent quality g-nose kit attached, along with riveted on fender skirts, and other details to replicate the ZG version.    I'm torn in which direction to proceed, either return it to Z-L specs, or put back together as a "tribute car of sorts".        I do so appreciate your patience with my questions.    Part of my equation for now is determining the rarity of the HS30 DX or "L" model versus the entirety of HS30 production run from 71-73....       I do realize very few modifications were made to the HS30 body the create the ZG  model, 

     Looking at the picture Alan posted early, has 3 cars listed from top to bottom...  only the ZG and ZL cars are totaled in the 2600 HS30 number correct?  The 3rd option, shown 240z only had the 2000cc engine   and was not considered HS30 ...    I hope I'm understanding this, and if not, were does  figure in the 2600#..   "discussion" number.

    Thank you again for your patience, I have owned 240z s in the US for many years.

 

David

 

    

 

[HS30-H]

59 minutes ago, dspillman said:

   Looking at the picture Alan posted early, has 3 cars listed from top to bottom...  only the ZG and ZL cars are totaled in the 2600 HS30 number correct?  The 3rd option, shown 240z only had the 2000cc engine   and was not considered HS30 ...    I hope I'm understanding this, and if not, were does  figure in the 2600#..   "discussion" number.

The three models in the photo I posted (it is a page from the October 1971 'Z-4' #272 Nissan Service Shuho model introduction booklet) are the three that I have been talking about; the 'HS30-S' Fairlady 240Z'/'HZS'/'HZ-Standard' model is the one on the bottom. It had the L24 engine the same as the other two models above it, and is implicitly included in the "2,600" conjectural figure from the graphic that we have been discussing.