Magazines: Perhaps the first German mention of Goertz in 1974

[florian]

Hello together,

so far I've only been a silent reader here and haven't contributed much to the community yet.

I would like to change that. 

I myself have had 4 Zs, own a Cherry E10 van and have been infected with this virus for a very long time through my family (we have been driving Nissan/Datsun since the 70s).

That's why I also founded the German platform www.datsun-autowerk.com.

One big task was to describe the Goertz story a bit better and in detail (www.graf-goertz.de) .
I learned a lot from this forum and talked to Alan and Carl.

One thing in particular interested me:
How early did the newspapers start telling this fairy tale?

I came to the following sources:

USA: Car&Driver in 1978 (full article: https://datsun-autowerk.com/dokumente/zeitungsartikel-car-driver-november-usa-1978)

UK: Car magazine in 1970 

And Germany? In the land of the count? So far this was rather unknown.

However, I found two newspapers from 1974 in my archives that report on the 240Z and, according to my research, mention Goertz for the first time.

I'd like to show you photos of them - I think others will be interested, too.

But if you know any other German and/or European sources before 1974, I would be very happy for photos of them!

Many greetings,
Florian
 

 

auto motor und sport - 01 1974

"Für das Styling des 240Z ist Graf Goertz verantwortlich – jener hakennasige Adelige, der in den fünfziger Jahren den BMW 507 zeichnete."

"Count Goertz is responsible for the styling of the 240Z - the hook-nosed aristocrat who designed the BMW 507 in the 1950s."

 

Full article: https://datsun-autowerk.com/dokumente/zeitungsartikel-auto-motor-und-sport-02-1974-de

 

rallye racing – 02 1974

"Schöpfer dieses ganz und gar unjapanisch aussehenden Autos ist der Deutsche AIbrecht Graf Goertz, ein Industrie-Designer.
Er lieferte den Karosserieentwurf für diesen erstmals 1969 vorgestellten Sportwagen."

"The creator of this entirely un-Japanese looking car is the German AIbrecht Graf Goertz, an industrial designer.
He provided the body design for this sports car first introduced in 1969."

Full article: https://datsun-autowerk.com/dokumente/zeitungsartikel-rallye-racing-02-1973-de-gewonnen-im-k-o-system-ein-italiener-aus-tokyo

 

[dutchzcarguy]

Willkommen! / Welcome!  Always nice to see someone from germany on this site. I'm Dutch but live just 2 miles from the border, near Kreis Kleve! (Close to the highway A77)

Oh mann..  You just waked a sleeping dog..  I know there is talked a lot about this subject..  I didn't read it all as i'm not THAT interested i guess..

Someone is going to give me the link to the thread i'm sure haha..

Graf goertz was the designer of the beautiful, and i mean BEAUTIFUL BMW507...  

And i was able long ago to get me one for 60000 guilders about 55000 Deutch Mark, or 22-24000 US Dollar? about? 

Wow.. i didn't have that kind of money then but i should have bought it anyway hahaha..

About the designer from the 240z..  I guess i'm gonna make some mad people here.. again i didn't read it all..  but i think the designer that recently died isn't THE designer of the 240z (Not him alone!) as there was a TEAM of designers and.. just my view: they just took a peek at some "other" designs (As the Japanese do and did!) and came with a beautiful car the 240Z!  (I'm not saying it was some papers of Herr Goertz! but it might be..)

I can't wait to read the reactions! 

Mart(in) 

Edited April 27, 2023 by dutchzcarguy

[florian]

Hi Martin,

yes, this thread will wake dogs and open old wounds.
But I don't want that.

As I said, my only interest is to find the first publications in Germany and Europe. 

 

I think everything else has been said 100x anyway. 🙂

[26th-Z]

Wilkommen auch!  Your point reminds me of years back when little was known about the Vintage Z program causing me to start a conversation and collect research information.  It grew to a lengthy conversation and, eventually, I wrote a dissertation about the program.

I would love to talk about when the Goertz myth began and by whom.  If not for entertainment!  We all know it's a myth, that Goertz had little to nothing to do with the design which makes the conversation entertaining to me.  Go for it!  "hook-nosed aristocrat"  Ha, ha, ha, - great!

[HS30-H]

Hi Florian, and welcome.

6 hours ago, florian said:

One thing in particular interested me:
How early did the newspapers start telling this fairy tale?

Well, for sure it had to come out of Goertz' mouth first. Apparently he was telling anybody who would listen that *he* had 'designed' the Z as soon as it debuted. We can even see him hanging around the car in photos from the 4/70 New York International Auto Show. Networking and hustling...

From the Feb '74 Rallye Racing article:
"The creator of this entirely un-Japanese looking car is the German AIbrecht Graf Goertz, an industrial designer.
He provided the body design for this sports car first introduced in 1969."

Coincidentally, I came across a similar "un-Japanese" quote earlier this week in a YouTube clip. But what does it actually mean? If the styling of the S30-series Z is "un-Japanese", then what does a 'Japanese' car look like? There has to be a thesis for their stated anti-thesis. The quote I saw came from somebody who was convinced it was Goertz' creation. We know it wasn't, so I wonder if knowing that would make it any more - or less - "un-Japanese" to his eye? At the very least it is a stupid thing to say, at worst it verges on xenophobia.

Underestimation of Japan and the Japanese can often be sniffed between the lines in that period, and that will - in my opinion - have bolstered Goertz and his rather tall stories. The inference is...  the Japanese didn't do it. And not only that, the Japanese couldn't have done it even if they wanted to. 

 

Sorry, I don't think I can help with any earlier sightings of Goertzlore than the 1970 CAR Magazine example, but thanks for bringing the topic up again and allowing me to stick another pin into my Goertz voodoo doll.  

 

[HS30-H]

5 hours ago, dutchzcarguy said:

Graf goertz was the designer of the beautiful, and i mean BEAUTIFUL BMW507... 

I think the 507 looks OK until you see somebody sitting in (on) one. At that point, it turns into a kiddy's fairground ride.

5 hours ago, dutchzcarguy said:

...just my view: they just took a peek at some "other" designs (As the Japanese do and did!) and came with a beautiful car...

And here it is again. The bald and simplistic idea that the Japanese 'copy', as though its a one-way street. And from a Dutchman too. Maybe another tour around the van Gogh museum in Amsterdam might put it into context somewhat?    

 

[florian]

In fact, I also stumbled across the photos from the 1970 Auto Show earlier. So that might actually have been the order. 
Auto Show > Car magazine

Nevertheless, I continue to search. Between 70 and 74 is a long time 😉

[HS30-H]

6 minutes ago, florian said:

In fact, I also stumbled across the photos from the 1970 Auto Show earlier. So that might actually have been the order. 
Auto Show > Car magazine

Seems logical.

[26th-Z]

I think if one looks at Japanese design theory and practical trends in the late 1960's, that which would have influenced the expression of someone like Matsuo san and his colleagues, one would conclude that the S30 project was cutting edge Japanese design.

[xs10shl]

7 hours ago, dutchzcarguy said:

About the designer from the 240z..  I guess i'm gonna make some mad people here.. again i didn't read it all..  but i think the designer that recently died isn't THE designer of the 240z (Not him alone!) as there was a TEAM of designers and.. just my view: they just took a peek at some "other" designs (As the Japanese do and did!) and came with a beautiful car the 240Z!  (I'm not saying it was some papers of Herr Goertz! but it might be..)
 

To add: I'd venture to say that most designers are influenced by other designs and designers.  Take as an example Gandini/Guigaro and the Miura. There are only so many unique ideas out there, and if someone claims the S30 is a derivative work, they could at least acknowledge that the S30 designers picked some great designs to be influenced by.  Imagine if they had picked a VW bus, or a Renault 2CV as their styling cues. Many enthusiasts who spot an S30Z seem to know exactly what it is, and don't say, "Hey, what is that- a Jaguar?" In that sense, I'd put forth that the S30 design can be categorized as having staying power on its own merit. 

A automotive journalist friend of mine has traced many such rumors back to a single article-of-origin.  It's very common, and speaks mostly to the laziness of some writers, who perpetuate the rumors with their own "articles-from-a-prior-article" [EDIT: HA! - an even more clear-cut case of "derivative work"]. Even today, I see articles crediting Goertz with designing the Toyota 2000GT, long after stories of any "involvement" on his part have been debunked. 

Edited April 27, 2023 by xs10shl

[florian]

That's the same with "Goertz designed the Porsche 911". And that, although at that time at most the 901 was on the way...

But that is not the point here 🙂

[Mark Maras]

I've always thought the 240 looked much like the 68-73 Ferrari 365 GTB/4 (Daytona). If we looked long and hard we could probably find someone who thinks Goertz designed that too.