Magazines: Perhaps the first German mention of Goertz in 1974

[florian]

For sure he did! On his golden toilet in the year 1952, somewhere in Italy!

[florian]

Today I have this question: Was the NY show really just in April? And if Goertz starts his legend there, why does CAR Magazine come out a month before? 

Or is that another show on the flyer?

Edited April 28, 2023 by florian

[HS30-H]

1 hour ago, florian said:

Today I have this question: Was the NY show really just in April? And if Goertz starts his legend there, why does CAR Magazine come out a month before? 

Or is that another show on the flyer?

You've got the right show. Goertz was photographed there - hanging around the Datsun 240Z that was on display - by CAR GRAPHIC magazine of Japan.

I think it goes without saying that Goertz would have been talking up his (non) connection to the new car as soon as it debuted and hit the media in October 1969, so your hunt for the first example of such story being actually published is probably going to be somewhat subjective. Car shows presented great opportunities for Goertz to meet with industry insiders as well as international journalists. This could be a 'Where's Wally' type hunt...

I'm not sure what the exact lead time on CAR magazine (UK) was in 1970, but the cover date for UK magazines in that period was usually up to four weeks - possibly more - before publishing, so I would say it is likely the March 1970 cover-dated issue hit the news stands in early February 1970 and the Goertzlore pre-dated the 4/70 NY Intl. show. There are were several other shows in the USA that could be candidates for a Goertz sighting (we have discussed early USA and Canada shows on this forum), and - of course - he could easily have been spreading his story amongst personal contacts between-times. He would naturally have been surfing the buzz about the new car. 

 

Here's the photo from CAR GRAPHIC Japan relating to the 4/70 NY show at the Coliseum. The caption below calls Goertz "a consultant designer for Nissan", although - technically - Goertz was never engaged by Nissan as a 'designer'.
 
     

[HS30-H]

16 hours ago, 26th-Z said:

I think if one looks at Japanese design theory and practical trends in the late 1960's, that which would have influenced the expression of someone like Matsuo san and his colleagues, one would conclude that the S30 project was cutting edge Japanese design.

I'm happy to believe that we could attribute some elements of styling/design as being typical of particular nations (EG 'Italianate') for certain periods, but as the (design) world got smaller due to international travel, photography and media the contemporary international zeitgeist took over, presuming designers/stylists were given enough of a free hand.

For sure the likes of Yoshida, Chiba, Matsuo, Tamura, Abe, Kurisaki et al (the guys who actually did the work that Goertz was claiming credit for) could have sketched a beautiful, pleasing and current form for a car body and they all had technical educations behind them. The 'Japanese can only copy' thing ignores this. However they would have been influenced by the work of others in the same way that all creatives are. This is a totally natural phenomenon. The language of design and styling evolves and spreads in just the same way as - for example - trends in music. At some point we end up with mirrors facing mirrors and endless reflections therein. 

[kats]

I checked my book shelves,

it didn’t mention who but BMW507.

Did you read my report of a dinner with Mr. Yoshida and Mr. Tamura? I believe no one has ever been told about story of Mr. Goertz’s  work before. He didn’t say what to do about S30. Also He didn’t show any single sketch for S30. He couldn’t, because he left Nissan well before the styling study of S30 began. He would never have been able to answer how and why for the styling details of S30. Because he wasn’t involved with the team.

Kats

[florian]

Thanks a lot Kats! I think I missed your report. Do you have a link for me? Thank you.

Thank you all so much here for the help and advice.
In fact, Germany unfortunately holds on to this myth very much and I am trying with my website and the constant conversations with automotive newspapers that the story is finally told correctly.

[HS30-H]

20 minutes ago, kats said:

Did you read my report of a dinner with Mr. Yoshida and Mr. Tamura? I believe no one has ever been told about story of Mr. Goertz’s  work before. He didn’t say what to do about S30. Also He didn’t show any single sketch for S30. He couldn’t, because he left Nissan well before the styling study of S30 began. He would never have been able to answer how and why for the styling details of S30. Because he wasn’t involved with the team.

EXACTLY! I think Goertz wanted people to believe that he was responsible, even if he never said it directly. He wanted to send them down a path where they ended up at that place on their own.

That's what has always pissed me off the most about Goertz. He was an intelligent and educated man, so HE KNEW that there was not a single line, not a single curve on the S30-series Z that was his. Nothing. And yet he still wanted the reflected glory, even - latterly - whilst telling people that 'they messed up my design'...

 

21 minutes ago, florian said:

In fact, Germany unfortunately holds on to this myth very much and I am trying with my website and the constant conversations with automotive newspapers that the story is finally told correctly.

 

Good luck with that Florian. I think I told you the story of when, having sent a letter to Classic & Sports Car magazine here in the UK protesting that their obituary for Goertz was full of lies, I was threatened with legal action by a German friend of Goertz. He even had his legal team telephone me a couple of times. Nothing came of it, but it maybe shows how deep the Goertzlore runs... 

[florian]

One of his last interviews is particularly exciting. Here he very deliberately avoids many questions and avoids giving clear answers.

For example, he is asked what his most difficult design was. The BMW or the Z.
He answers, "The most difficult design was a fountain pen."

 

Alan, yes, you told my about it. 

 

 

 

[Namerow]

Whenever I read these discussions about Goertz, I'm reminded of another 'design consultant' of the same era, Raymond Loewy (automotive credits include the Studebaker Avanti and the Greyhound SceniCruiser bus).  Both were European ex-pats -- Loewy born in Paris, Goertz born in Germany.  Both gravitated to the US -- Loewy to NYC in 1919, Goertz to LA about 17 years later.  While Loewy's credentials included some university-level engineering training (which he apparently did not complete), Goertz appears to have had no formal technical training and his career appears to have been based on not much else beyond an interest in performing Euro-customizing of pre-war Ford sedans.  Apparently, he rented a garage with a showroom in LA to build and sell his handiwork (I sense that all of this activity may have been backed by a family trust fund).  Somehow, he managed to get one of his kustoms (named the 'Paragon') exhibited at the New York World's Fair in 1939, where I'm sure that it attracted the attention of Mr. Loewy.  It's not entirely clear whether the two met by accident of by design, but meet they did and it would appear the Loewy -- Goertz' senior by about 20 years -- decided to take Goertz under his wing.  Or maybe Goertz just pestered him for a job. 

Loewy is said to have arranged for Goertz to get work with Studebaker, but this might have been nothing more than a piece-work role as a design sub-contractor (Loewy's industrial design firm was big and had enjoyed a significant consulting contract with Studebaker going back as far as 1936).  It's worth noting that Goertz, after the end of WW2, had decided to shift his base of operations from Los Angeles to NYC and in the mid-1950's was busy enamoring himself with Max Hoffmann, the principal US East coast importer of many European brands (BMW included).  One wonders how this led to his involvement with the Type 507 project.

So:  Interesting that the two knew each other and collaborated in some fashion.  With their similar European backgrounds, it's easy to see how a dialogue of sorts got started.  I wonder what was going through Loewy's mind when Goertz started promoting himself as a consultant for the BMW 507, Porsche 901, and Datsun Z?  Loewy had put together a major industrial design firm by the 1950's, with over 100 staff (Loewy had even been featured on the cover of Time magazine).  Goertz does not appear to have ever got past the status of 'sole proprietor'.  While both men were, I'm sure, relentless self-promoters, Goertz 'chutzpah' really stands out in light of his 'one-man-band-with-no-followers' status.

As HS30-H has pointed out, it can be tricky to try to assign the origin of a design to any one particular person -- as tempting as that might be.  As a noteworthy example, the design of the original Corvette String Ray is often attributed to a sketch done by Pete Brock (designer of the Shelby Cobra Daytona coupe) while he was a junior member of the GM Styling department, working under Bill Mitchell, in the late 1950's.  While the Brock sketch certainly displays many of the design details that became hallmarks of the Sting Ray prototype, it would be incorrect to claim that Brock was the designer (and, to his credit, Brock appears to have never made such a claim).  I suspect that Goertz -- like Brock -- produced a sketch for concept that eventually became an icon (the BMW 507 in Goertz' case).  Unlike Brock, however, Goertz appears to have no hesitation in claiming status as the sole-designer.  Or, perhaps more accurately, he never said that he was but never denied that he wasn't.  The same would seem to apply to his roles with the Toyota 2000GT and the Datsun Z. 

BTW, Raymond Loewy claimed personal credit for some of the most hideous automotive styling exercises that I've ever seen.  Perhaps his real talent lay in assembling a group of talented people around him and then promoting and managing their efforts.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Namerow

[RIP260Z]

1 hour ago, florian said:

Thank you all so much here for the help and advice.
In fact, Germany unfortunately holds on to this myth very much and I am trying with my website and the constant conversations with automotive newspapers that the story is finally told correctly.

Good luck with that Florian. I have had the same convincing people about the not designed by Goertz for the Nissan CSP311 Silvia, though its a little bit more tricky as he did have a small input (which doesn't mean he designed it - supposed C pillar angle change). People aren't easy to shift. I had Toyota GB do an article on the Toyota 2000GT, saying Albrecht did it, even though I pointed to all the evidence needed is in Shin's brilliant Toyota 2000GT book, which is well researched.

All I get is quotes from various magazine articles as "proof" when we know they have put little research in and skew their article to their readers.

Geortz seems from his autobiography to have been in a design desert since the BMW 507, having designed nothing of any note after. The odd ring, things like household goods, which doesn't float being in the spotlight of design....I think he attached himself to the CSP311 and the 5 or 6 other car designs as his, or put it so that the ear of the listener thought so, to get back in the limelight.  A bit sad.....

[florian]

Yes, the Toyota thing comes up a lot, too, unfortunately.

Do you have the book available? Unfortunately, in all these years I have never had the chance to find a copy.

[HS30-H]

1 hour ago, florian said:

One of his last interviews is particularly exciting. Here he very deliberately avoids many questions and avoids giving clear answers.

Amazing. First time I've seen that. Thank you.

His input for that Steinway piano seems to be more about surface finish than anything else. "By Goertz" was probably useful as something for the sales, advertising and PR teams to get their teeth into though I guess.

Goertzlore on display with his remarks about Japan. He tells us that Japanese people were still wearing Kimonos (presumably to set the scene whereby he is some kind of pioneer bringing Western culture to the savages...) but that would be 1860s rather than 1960s, when Goertz started writing letters to Japan and knocking on doors. He paints himself as some kind of pioneer, but in truth he was a latecomer. In terms of industrial design he was a good part of 60+ years late minimum (arguably 150+). But people swallow this kind of stuff whole, don't they?