Quaife LSD Installation in R180 - With Questions About Installation Also

[inline6]

20 hours ago, Patcon said:

My only concern about moving the contact pattern is noise. I have read that moving to a new contact pattern in a worn in R&P can cause excessive noise and/or whine.

Otherwise I agree with your plan overall

Interesting.  While I have a wipe pattern from assembly with all new bearings, I do not have one from before I disassembled the differential.  In all probability, it had never been apart before, so the wipe pattern before disassembly should have been "close" to correct.  I do recall (and posted somewhere earlier) that I measured the back lash before I took it apart and it was well within spec.  

So, I guess I will hope that centering the contact pattern will put it back close to where it was and minimize noise for the reason you point out.

18 hours ago, Yarb said:

My two cents here, @inline6 You have spent a lot of money and time on building the LSD. What would the cost factor be to take it to a specialist and have them dial it in versus the risk factor moving forward. I applaud you for the effort and research trying to find the parts to dial it in. I realize companies that specialize in this area are hard to find. I’m rooting for you friend, this is a tough one.

Well... Unfortunately, my history of experiences of having others do car related work for me have more often turned out to be disappointments than good experiences.  Another way of saying that is: the majority of the time I hand stuff off to someone else to do, it doesn't get done well enough.  Now, I am freely admitting that I am a perfectionist.  And that is probably more than half of the problem.  However, it can be very hit and miss with having someone else do this (as well as other) types of automotive work.  

If there is a place that is highly recommended by people with personal experience with the work, I will gladly and seriously consider it.  I just assume that either: most differential rebuilders (who are still around) won't touch this, or I'd be better off not playing Russian roulette with the places that pop up with an internet search.  Then, there is the weight of the thing... shipping both ways, etc., but that is a secondary set of issues.



 

Edited January 10 by inline6

[dutchzcarguy]

On 1/10/2024 at 4:25 AM, inline6 said:

Unfortunately, my history of experiences of having others do car related work for me have more often turned out to be disappointments than good experiences. 

Like a Friend once said: Yes, if you want it to be done right, you'll have to do it yourself!

About the shims i would buy some small ones (Thin) .. you can easely make 10 thicknesses with 4 different shims!  (In fact 15..) 

(Last year i bought a diff and it's completely apart with new bearings and shim's so i watch and try to learn something here!  Normally i don't take apart gearboxes or diffs..)

Edited January 11 by dutchzcarguy

[AK260]

17 hours ago, inline6 said:

Interesting.  While I have a wipe pattern from assembly with all new bearings, I do not have one from before I disassembled the differential.  In all probability, it had never been apart before, so the wipe pattern before disassembly should have been "close" to correct.  I do recall (and posted somewhere earlier) that I measured the back lash before I took it apart and it was well within spec.  

So, I guess I will hope that centering the contact pattern will put it back close to where it was and minimize noise for the reason you point out.

Well... Unfortunately, my history of experiences of having others do car related work for me have more often turned out to be disappointments than good experiences.  Another way of saying that is: the majority of the time I hand stuff off to someone else to do, it doesn't get done well enough.  Now, I am freely admitting that I am a perfectionist.  And that is probably more than half of the problem.  However, it can be very hit and miss with having someone else do this (as well as other) types of automotive work.  

If there is a place that is highly recommended by people with personal experience with the work, I will gladly and seriously consider it.  I just assume that either: most differential rebuilders (who are still around) won't touch this, or I'd be better off not playing Russian roulette with the places that pop up with an internet search.  Then, there is the weight of the thing... shipping both ways, etc., but that is a secondary set of issues.



 

Completely and utterly agree with this sentiment! I only outsource the simple but needs a ramp stuff on the family cars let alone anything on the Z!! 
 

With something like this and so much precision required, no one will give it as much love and attention as you have.

 

One of the guys in the UK club has spent a small fortune trying to get a while free LSD diff. Even gave one to Quaife to install their ATB into and found it worse than before it went to them. I suspect they outsource the smaller jobs and for £300 to install the ATB (this was a few years back) I can’t imagine someone spending as much time as you have sweating the details.

 

Really great work here! I have to say, you are brave to be dealing with that pinion bearing. Consensus has been that many of the “outsourced” diffs end up with problems after the pinion bearing had been replaced. I suspect they didn’t pay as much attention to shims and wipe patterns as you have / will by the time it’s all together.

[inline6]

As an update, I should be receiving the new Subaru shims tomorrow.

[inline6]

I received the two shims today.  And, they are different than the one that came out of the differential.  I checked the part numbers, and they are correct.  I sourced all the differential bearings from Subaru, and they all fit perfectly.  I used the same application - 04 Subaru STI for those and these shims, so I don't know what the issue here is.  These new shims are likely for the R160 instead of the R180.  

 

After more searching online and coming up with dead ends, I remembered that I sold a 4.38 R180 to Troy Ermish not too long ago, so I pinged him on Facebook Messenger, asking him if he knew of a source for pinion shims.  He responded within seconds, which was nice.  He said "I never remove the pinion".  In fact, he said that twice during the chat.  He looked online a bit and couldn't find anything.  He suggested looking for generic shims, and that I may be able to find something with a 35 mm ID (the original shim has a 35 mm ID and 54 OD).  

So, then we get back to some of the prior questions regarding "hardness"... and what thickness?  I found this place online - they make custom shims: https://www.phoenixspecialtysales.com/.  I am stepping through their online quote functionality, and they have many material options:

I'd like to get a quote for one shim and see if this route is an option.  @Captain Obvious, can you recommend a material option?  

I will also place an order for this, with the plan of making some .001" shims out of the material and then will proceed with trial and error to arrive at the thickness shim that I need:
https://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Strips-Drillable-Cutble-Thickness/dp/B0C2YQW284/ref=sr_1_20?crid=1ER6Y6II7JTM&keywords=shim+steel&qid=1705200847&s=industrial&sprefix=shim+steel%2Cindustrial%2C102&sr=1-20

Edited January 14 by inline6

[Patcon]

It is interesting that Troy doesn't attempt that. He is very capable...

[grannyknot]

9 hours ago, Patcon said:

It is interesting that Troy doesn't attempt that. He is very capable...

I guess he doesn't ever replace the pinion bearings?

[Patcon]

I dont know. These original Japanese bearings are made of really good stuff...

I once replaced a transmission seal on a BMW z3 when I did the clutch. I later discovered nobody does that. It's too easy to cause a leak with the new seal where one didn't exist before. I did cause a new leak with my seal and roasted the transmission. Lesson learned! 😡

[inline6]

Here is what I supplied for a quote:

Another option I thought of is to contact local machine shops to see if they could make me a shim, or shims.  It seems to me that a round bar could be chucked up in a lathe, turned on the outside, then bored and finished to 35 mm on the ID (and chamfered on the ID), and finally, cut off to get me one shim of the thickness I need.  I suspect that it would need a touch of finishing on a flat stone. 

.001" shim stock is on the way to me.

[Jeff Berk]

This is an amazing project I'm glad I didn't attempt. I have two potential avenues of assistance if you need either one. My fall back mechanic for my Z, Lanny Ritz in Kent, OH can handle just about any issue with a Nissan, except he doesn't do differentials. I can get you the contact information he ships his differentials to if you get into a real bind.

If you need help cutting out a shim, I have access to a water jet. You would just have to ship me the stock.

[inline6]

8 hours ago, Jeff Berk said:

This is an amazing project I'm glad I didn't attempt. I have two potential avenues of assistance if you need either one. My fall back mechanic for my Z, Lanny Ritz in Kent, OH can handle just about any issue with a Nissan, except he doesn't do differentials. I can get you the contact information he ships his differentials to if you get into a real bind.

If you need help cutting out a shim, I have access to a water jet. You would just have to ship me the stock.

Thanks for offering assistance.  At this point, options are good things.  I will keep updating the thread as I learn anything new and will reach back out to you if either of those routes look best.

[Captain Obvious]

On 1/14/2024 at 11:15 AM, inline6 said:

Here is what I supplied for a quote:

Maybe it's just me, but I suspect the first thing your machine shop is going to do is convert your drawing to English system. With that in mind, I'd just do it for them. I know any machinist ought to be able to do the conversion, but I'd just do it for them.

Also, is the pinion shaft diameter smaller than 35mm? If so, you're good. But if the shaft is right at 35mm OD, then a 35mm ID spacer isn't going to fit over it. You'll need to open up the ID a couple thousandths just to get it to fit and not bind when you try to slide it on the shaft.

As for material, I think 1045 in the annealed state would be a reasonable choice. It should certainly be harder than the 1008 stuff.