Problems with 240z doors from Resurrected Classics.

[dutchzcarguy]

I think as Max said.. you need to correct the fender not the door.. what your doing is sculpturing the door where the fender is/was already a sculptured part.. first thng to do is clean of the fender till you only have metall and go from there. When you losen the fender on the lower end, you'll see that there is a lot of room to alter the gap you are experiencing.

(I'm always alert on the fact that also a new part can be broken or wrong but in this case i don't think you can blame the new part.)

(Also as i'm lazy.. (read:tired all the time.)  i didn't read the whole topic but i just added my view. sorry..)

[Derek]

5 hours ago, Resurrected Classics said:

it looks like a fair amount of body filler was used on the fender

Just in that area. That was an old rust spot that I had beat down and filled over.  There is no filler in the area of contention. Also if we consider the fender as the control then both doors would have fit the same. They don't.   As I said previously there is no filler on the old door. But that's all irrelevant because that isn't my problem with the door.

5 hours ago, Resurrected Classics said:

in our dialog I did ask if the factory rubber roller clip was installed, as this piece is crucial in positioning the glass, and I did not receive a response.

The rollers are installed. You didn't receive a response because I was done trying to make the doors work. I felt I put way more time into these than I should have. As a business I need to make cost-bennifit choices daily and it was time to step away and cut my losses.

5 hours ago, Resurrected Classics said:

Is entirely incorrect, my actual statement was that I would give you a smaller part of your choosing at no cost to you, not a future discount. 

True and I apologize. But the reality is in my mind offering trinkets to make up for the literal days I have making the doors work is no better. 

You still haven't addressed here or in your last email, which I stated was my breaking point was that the top flange on the drivers door is 1.5mm wider than the factory door and your passengers door. I literally cannot get the door panel to slip over the edge.

21 hours ago, Derek said:

I’m not telling anyone to not buy the doors but if you do I strongly recommend you assemble the doors all the way including the door panels as soon as you get them. And if you purchased a set and they are sitting in a box you my just be in for a surprise when you go to assemble. I don’t doubt there are working doors out there but I think I have more than proven that there are problems with the doors. The pictures don’t lie.

And I'm still of the same mind. If you buy these doors make sure you assemble them all the way as soon as you get them as there are obvious documented QC problems.

 

I've said all I need to. I wanted to get it off my chest which I did but I also felt a responsibility as a long time member of the Datsun Community to pass along the pictures and a description of what I was up against. The fact that max has sold 33 sets doesn't mean 33 sets are installed on cars. How many sets are sitting un opened on a shelf while the owner spends multiple years collecting parts only to open the box and find out the hinge didn't bolt on. It's a cautionary tale more than anything else.

All the best,

Derek

[Derek]

28 minutes ago, dutchzcarguy said:

(Also as i'm lazy.. (read:tired all the time.)  i didn't read the whole topic but i just added my view. sorry..)

You should 🙂

I just added a post. There is no bondo on the fender in the area of contention. Yes there is bond at the top. Max and you made the assumption that because I repaired a different section of the fender that meant I had worked the entire section of the fender. One spot of repair is not a basis to make the judgement that the problem is the fender and not the door.

 

 

[Zed Head]

11 hours ago, Resurrected Classics said:

we have had only 1 other customer issue a complaint about the doors that was later resolved, and not to the severity as is described here. 

Was the issue similar?

Looking back at Derek's comments I notice that the replacement skin was not the same as the one it replaced.  That's not a good sign for future customers.  How would that happen?

On 11/27/2024 at 5:39 AM, Derek said:

contacted Max and luckily he had someone driving south near me and he brought a new door and we swapped. I actually hung it quickly and although the fit wasn’t great it was still less work than fixing my old doors so I decided to keep moving forward.

So, it looks like there is some variability across the production process.  And the fact that the screw holes don't line up is a big deal.  If RC has more stock on the shelves it might be found that some are correct and some are not.  The problem is that they're not all the same.  They should be.

At this point RC should really consider building a jig, in Georgia, that represents a 240Z body and test fitting each panel.  Otherwise, it's almost certain that other customers will have, or are having, this type of problem.

I work in manufacturing also so this seems obvious to me.  You have to wonder how these parts are being made if there is so much variation on areas that are obviously critical to proper function, like the door striker plate mounting holes.

Sorry RC, but if there's variation here there's probably variation everywhere, in all of your stamped metal products.  There is obviously a problem with the manufacturing process.  I'd guess that the parts are actually made elsewhere, maybe overseas, so the problem is probably with RC's supplier.  Tight specs have not been set or have been set but are not verified.  Good luck with the venture.  Things will only get worse if this is true.

As Derek suggested, customers should test fit their parts immediately and request corrective action if they find problems.  It's a bummer, but it seems necessary.

[HS30-H]

6 hours ago, Zed Head said:

Looking back at Derek's comments I notice that the replacement skin was not the same as the one it replaced.

You keep using the term "skin". In common usage, the term "skin" refers to just the outer layer of sheetmetal which is stretched over the door frame pressing. Nissan used to supply replacement door 'skins' (which they called Door Out"/outer, and also whole door units. They are two different things.

What's being discussed here are not just door 'skins', but complete replacement door units.

 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 12:13 AM by HS30-H

[Zed Head]

The thought actually crossed my mind when I was writing, that it was incorrect.  But, I'm not actually sure what it is that he bought.  The catalog and web page are not very clear.  The web page says "shells".  The catalog says doors, but the picture is of a skin.  It seems like it might be somewhere between complete door and skin.  Not sure.

But, I just went to look for more information and came across the specific door steel page.  It describes "1970 to 1976 door shells".  I wonder if they sent the wrong year to Derek.

https://resurrectedclassics.com/products/1970-1976-datsun-240z-260z-280z-steel-door-shell-set

"

1970-1976 Datsun 240z 260z 280z Steel door shell set

 

$1,395.00"

 

Looking at the intricacies of the innner door in your picture - the window mounting, and the latching mechanism, and the arm rests - it's hard to imagine that all of that would be right if the basic elements of mounting the door and the striker mechanism are not.

It's an opportunity for RC.  I hope that they take advantage.  It might be that they don't know of the differences that occurred over the years and just assumed.

 

[Zed Head]

After reading the fine print in that link I pasted above I really don't know what to think.  Derek got a second door that was different than the first problematic door.  But it was also problematic.  The text on the web page says that all of the critical areas were checked extensively.  How did those two slip through?

https://resurrectedclassics.com/collections/sheet-metal/products/1970-1976-datsun-240z-260z-280z-steel-door-shell-set

"

NEW Reproduction Complete steel door shell set for 1970-1976 Datsun 240z 260z 280z. These doors were produced after years of development, with numerous trials and test fitments to ensure their quality and ease of installation. This is the complete door shell, not just a skin, passenger and drivers side. All of the factory correct welded nuts and holes are made into this unit just like the factory. Our doors have the correct shape, curves, and stamping like the original doors.

Please note: Doors from 1973-1976 have different interior panels where the door panel clips into, as well as different internal window mechanisms but it will bolt onto your car. You will have to use 240z door internals and door panels for our doors or modify the door to fit your existing parts. Please compare visually before purchasing to make sure you are satisfied. These doors will not fit at all for 1977-1978 280z.

Our parts are bolt on ready, just like the factory, so you don't have to spend hours welding a panel in or paying a body shop to patch your existing panel. Replace, don't just patch!

All of our steel panels are manufactured for enthusiasts, by enthusiasts, with special attention paid to a quality fitment and ease of installation, while matching or exceeding OEM standards.

"

[HS30-H]

4 hours ago, Zed Head said:

The thought actually crossed my mind when I was writing, that it was incorrect.  But, I'm not actually sure what it is that he bought.  The catalog and web page are not very clear.  The web page says "shells".  The catalog says doors, but the picture is of a skin.  It seems like it might be somewhere between complete door and skin.  Not sure.

Door 'skins' do not - can not - carry any of the captive nuts and fixtures for door hinges, latches, locks, window frame/sash and window winder mechanism that Derek describes having difficulty with. 

Here's a photo of the rear side ('inside' if you like) of a reproduction replacement door 'skin' sold by Z Car Depot. It has some structure at the top which the window trim and window roller guide attach to, but just holes in the pressing for the outer door handle and lock barrel. That's it. It's simply the outer surface of the door when it is on the car. It is not a complete door:

Derek and Resurrected Classics are talking about complete door shells, not just skins. Here are a couple more photos of my NOS N3400 door. If you look closely you can see where the outer 'skin' flange wraps around the door shell pressing:

[Derek]

4 hours ago, Zed Head said:

How did those two slip through?

Well if you want to play numbers I received a total of 3 door shells from RC. Of the three 2 had catastrophic problems with 2 critical mounting points. The first passengers door with the hinge hole in the wrong place and the drivers door with the latch holes in the wrong place. The drivers door also has the ledge being too wide so that the door panel won't go on.

I do a ton of reverse engineering of castings in order to design new tooling. Customers come to me with a part to recreate and my first question is "what were the original tolerances on the item". If you don't know that then it really is a crap shoot. So let's talk about the door shells. Nissan designed the stampings, hole locations and assembly dimensions to fit within a certain criteria. Those three items need to work with the manufacturing tolerances of the window movement mechanism, the latching mechanism the body assembly tolerances etc, etc. If you don't have that data then you need to reverse engineer a  large sampling of items over several production years to develop your own targets. Or you need to redesign the part to work in a more tolerant way. Max said he slotted mounting holes. The problem is if the mounting surfaces of the tracks are in the wrong plane all bets are off. If you look at how Nissan designed the window mechanism they are relying heavily on the mount surfaces to be in the right place. Think about the overall size of the door and how just one of the mounting surfaces being slightly off could affect things.

Hats off to whomever funded the stamping dies for taking the chance on this but whomever is responsible for engineering the actual assembly needs a spanking. If I was consulting on this project I would have strongly recommended using overseas for what they do best, in this case cheap stampings, and then onshore the components for assembly where you have much more control. And again I would have designed the door shell stamping to be more forgiving.

So if I'm so smart why didn't I have the good sense to fully assemble the doors before I ever thought about painting them:) Sigh.