Saturday at 03:28 PM1 day Author comment_675511 Since the very rich AFR at idle I am experiencing with the N27's is not acceptable, I decided to order some SM needles and give them a shot. A comparison:While the differences at each used station are "small", they are evidently quite large when tuning SU carburetors, as I found out watching How SU carburetors work parts 1 through 4 here: https://www.youtube.com/@ACDodd/videosAnyway, they were only $40 delivered, so not an expensive thing. I swapped those in last weekend and made a few more runs to collect AFR. Doing so, I saw some changes and made some new observations.First the plots:Idle:I am quite happy with that. 14.7 to 1 is stoichiometric. For idle speed, I think that would be ideal. But I think this is great.cruise:For the recording of cruising above, I was mostly on flat road holding the speed at an indicated 50 mph in third. My RPMs are now being recorded, but honestly, I don't know which to believe, my tach, or the LM2, as there is a notable difference off of idle. Generally, the LM2 is reading higher by as much as ~500 rpm. I plan to notate some speeds in gears and tach and LM2 rpm readings and compare with calculated info based on transmission and differential ratios and tire diameter to see which is more accurate.Again, for cruising, I like the AFRs I am seeing here. I do not notice any surging or anything out of usual when slightly lean by this much while cruising. It should be good for fuel economy.acceleration:Now, for acceleration, I am less pleased. The first steep rise is first gear. I think I pressed record just after the light turned green and applied full throttle in first, then shifted to second and applied full throttle, then shifted to third and applied full throttle - very briefly. My focus points are seconds 2-3 and 6 to 8 and a half. For those, I am in a steady state - full throttle - flat road. In first, the AFR is a bit under 12. In second, it looks like about 12 to 12.2. So, rich. What got really interesting is that when I shifted to third and again applied full throttle, the engine essential "stopped" as the AFR spiked up to north of 20. I suspect the float bowls went dry. I was able to repeat this a second time. So, I will need to investigate this further.Now that I have watched the video series mentioned above, I will plan out my next steps differently. I won't be messing with needles for now. I need to check the springs in the carburetor to see if they are original and in good condition. And I need to investigate my dampers. They may have too much wear. One of the indications that I have an issue with either the springs or the dampers is that (and this is with both the N27 and the SM needles), the AFR is going extreme lean on throttle off deceleration. It is worse with the SM needles - going north of 20. But it is bad with the N27s as well, going north of 18. Lots of popping out of the exhaust...Based on the info in the videos, that is either spring or damper. Edited Saturday at 03:33 PM1 day by inline6 Link to comment https://www.classiczcars.com/forums/topic/69292-choosing-an-su-needle-if-i-have-needle-station-info-and-real-world-afr-can-i-use-that-to-find-the-right-needle/?&page=2#findComment-675511 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yesterday at 02:19 AM1 day comment_675524 Other than that anomaly in third gear, I think the numbers look excellent. My understanding is that you WANT to run a little rich at WOT, and from watching the engine experts on "Engine Masters", I believe that 12 would be great.In general, the it seems the desired conditions are:A little rich at idle (because engines never want to run at idle, so you reward their good behavior with a little more fuel).A little lean at cruise (because you can, and gasoline is expensive).A little more than a little rich at WOT with 12 being just about ideal (because the extra fuel helps keep cylinder temps down which helps prevent pre-ignition).I'm no expert, but that's what I've gleaned from listening to people who claim to be.Now that anomaly in third gear... That's concerning. I remember asking a bunch about fuel delivery earlier.And just to be annoying, I remember asking about dampers and springs earlier as well. Haha!! 😄 Link to comment https://www.classiczcars.com/forums/topic/69292-choosing-an-su-needle-if-i-have-needle-station-info-and-real-world-afr-can-i-use-that-to-find-the-right-needle/?&page=2#findComment-675524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yesterday at 11:11 AM1 day comment_675528 Obvious questions of course! ;) Link to comment https://www.classiczcars.com/forums/topic/69292-choosing-an-su-needle-if-i-have-needle-station-info-and-real-world-afr-can-i-use-that-to-find-the-right-needle/?&page=2#findComment-675528 Share on other sites More sharing options...
20 hours ago20 hr Author comment_675530 Thanks @Captain Obvious - little late is better than never I guess! But I did check the springs yesterday vs. a spare one I have and I checked the dampers. Both of the springs appear to be original and in good condition. They are the same free standing height as the spare one I have. I bought a carburetor rebuild kit from ZcarDepot a while back. The diameter of the brass barrel on the old dampers was not measurably different from the one of the new dampers that came with the kit. Interestingly, the barrel heights are shorter on the new dampers... and the distance they move on the stick is larger. And the new sticks don't have oil height marks. I choose to stay with the original dampers and springs.I changed the oil from straight 20 weight to 10W30 because I have that on hand and then went our for a few more AFR checking runs.Here is what I am looking at when letting off the throttle. This is cruising in 4th, then a rev match downshift to 3rd with throttle completely shut shortly thereafter for decel.From around 14.7 at cruise, when I blip the throttle to rev match, the mixture changes to around 12, but with the throttle plates shut entirely, after a second or so, the AFR starts to climb quickly, spiking north of 22. Unsure what that drop in AFR is at 9 seconds - I may have touched the throttle briefly. here is a lot of popping out of the exhaust during any overrun like the above.It seems odd that with the mixture looking pretty good under idle and cruise, and not far off under power that I am experiencing this. I will check for leaks at the carb manifold next, as maybe air is bypassing the carbs under high manifold vacuum conditions. Link to comment https://www.classiczcars.com/forums/topic/69292-choosing-an-su-needle-if-i-have-needle-station-info-and-real-world-afr-can-i-use-that-to-find-the-right-needle/?&page=2#findComment-675530 Share on other sites More sharing options...
11 hours ago11 hr comment_675536 Carbs do unusual things (and typically unwanted things) fully closed at high manifold vacuum. The typical thing the SU's do is go very rich though, not very lean. So how about you put a vacuum gauge on it and drive around a little with it connected? Maybe you are looking for a vacuum leak.And... Do you have the throttle opener device installed, connected, and working? It's only job is to prevent the carbs from doing unwanted things at very high manifold vacuums. Link to comment https://www.classiczcars.com/forums/topic/69292-choosing-an-su-needle-if-i-have-needle-station-info-and-real-world-afr-can-i-use-that-to-find-the-right-needle/?&page=2#findComment-675536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
11 hours ago11 hr comment_675538 Oh, and about that short rich spike when you blip the throttle on a downshift? I see that as your dampers working and doing exactly what they are designed to do... Provide a short term enriching of the mixture when the throttle plates are opened. Just like an accelerator pump would do. Link to comment https://www.classiczcars.com/forums/topic/69292-choosing-an-su-needle-if-i-have-needle-station-info-and-real-world-afr-can-i-use-that-to-find-the-right-needle/?&page=2#findComment-675538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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