Carb Question's

[Xargon321]

Hello im brand new to the forums. and new to the zcar (unless you count the 78 zx my parents had a long time ago) i got my 74 datsun 260z for free from a man that messed his back up and coudent work on it anymore. he had started to switch the flattop carbs to the round tops. well i have it now and got it pretty much back together, and i can get it to start but it idles about 2k rpm and backfires threw the carbs, ive read that that is a lean condition but i would like to know if there is a starting setting i can put them at cold to get it to run decent to warm up to tune?

also wheres the mixture nut, is it that big knurled nut with a ball bearing in it?

i have a digi cam but no batterys ill get a pic of the engine bay so if im missing anything i can get a heads up from you guys

[Bambikiller240]

1. Tuning your SU carburetors by Scott Fisher,

I've been meaning to write this up for some time, ever since I did the SU Performance Tuning 101 a few months ago. This one is more like Basic SU Adjustment for Happy Driving.

The trick to tuning SU carbs is to understand that there are two things you need to get right: the airflow, and the fuel mixture. While they are interconnected, they are also independent, and need to be measured and adjusted independently.

Special Tools

You will probably need to arrange to buy or borrow a Unisyn flow meter. The Unisyn is the usual gauge for getting the airflow balanced between the two carbs. This costs about $20 and is simple to use. It consists of an adjustable opening (same size circumference, but with a disc on a threaded rod that you can screw tighter or looser) that you use to set the level of a little float that rises or falls in a glass tube at the side of the gauge.

For the fuel mixture, I have become sold on a device called the Gunson ColorTune (maybe ColourTune, as it's a British co.). This is a spark plug with a crystal pressure- and heat-resistant window in it that lets you see into the combustion chamber while the motor is running. The color of the flame indicates the mixture richness. It costs about $40, and while it's not absolutely essential, it makes life so much easier that it's worth the cost.

If you don't have a Gunson, I've included the standard directions here for determining correct mixture (step 4 of the Adjusting Mixture procedure).

To tune SU carbs, first locate the following components:

• Throttle linkage nuts. These are the things that connect the throttle linkage (the bar connected to your foot through whatever means your car uses, cables or rods) to the carburetors' throttle levers.

• Throttle stop screws. These set the idle speed for each carb, and are located typically behind the dashpot, on the same side of the carb to which the throttle linkage connects.

• Mixture adjusting nut. This is the lower of the two nuts at the very bottom of the carburetor. Later SU carburetors of the HIF type have integral float chambers, on which the mixture is adjusted by turning a screw. You'll need to experiment (and I explain how) to see which way makes this richer and which way makes it leaner.

• Lifting pins. These are little wobbly metal pins under the dashpot. When you push up on the pin, it raises the piston in the dashpot. Find these; they're crucial if you don't have a Colortune. If you don't have or can't find them, you can raise the piston with a flat-bladed screwdriver pushed down the throat of the carb and twisted to lift it.

• The bridge. This is the part inside the carburetor, where the gas jet opens into the air stream. You'll see a needle inside the jet, and the jet itself should be a few fractions of an inch down from the bridge itself. The jet is the brass tube that sits in the center of the bridge, with a tapered needle poking down into it.

• The choke linkage nuts. Comparable to the throttle linkage nuts (and usually the same size), but on the linkage that goes between the choke cable and the mixture adjustment mechanism. They make sure that both carbs are enriched when you pull on the choke.

Balancing The Air Flow

1. Start with the engine warmed up to operating temperature and perform your standard ignition tune-up (points gap, timing, spark plug gap, new condenser, etc.) first. If you've got a timing light and a dwell meter, you can verify all that stuff independent of the way the car is running. When it's warm, shut the motor off and remove the air filters.

2. Begin by balancing the airflow. To do this, first loosen the throttle linkage nuts. Leave them connected, just loosen them half a turn or so.

3. Back out the throttle stop screws till you can see that they are just touching the throttle stop. Then open each carburetor (that is, lower the throttle stop screw) 1-1/2 turns of the throttle stop screw and start the engine. It will probably idle at about 2000 RPM; don't worry.

4. Put the Unisyn over either carb and adjust the orifice in the Unisyn till the little float at the side rests at the middle of its graduated tube. (Pre-diagnostics: if the idle drops and the car wants to die when you slap on the Unisyn, the carb is too rich; if the idle soars upwards, it's too lean.) Hold the Unisyn over the carb for only long enough to see the level of the float, then remove it.

5. Place the Unisyn on each carburetor in turn to check its flow, adjusting the throttle stop screws until both carburetors register the same position on the graduated tube of the Unisyn. (The float will probably move either up or down in the tube, which is why you want to center it in Step 4.) When both carburetors flow the same amount of air, tighten the throttle linkage nuts, adjusting for the amount of free-play between the linkage and the throttle stops that your manual calls for (probably about 0.006"). Your goal should be to achieve the lowest possible idle with both carbs balanced and the engine running smoothly. (Note that the idle speed will very probably rise as you get the mixture correct.)

If you've taken more than five minutes to do this, rev the engine to over 2500 RPM (assuming the idle isn't already that high) for thirty seconds or so to clear the spark plugs. Then adjust the mixture.

Adjusting The Mixture:

Note: in the following procedure, one "flat" is the basic increment of adjustment, and refers to 1/6 of a turn of the mixture-adjusting nut. This corresponds to the flat faces on the nut.

I'm going to give instructions for SUs with the separate float chambers. If you have the HIF integral-float carbs, you'll have to look in a manual to see whether you turn the mixture screw to the right or the left to make it richer or leaner; I've done that once but I can't remember. Alternatively, you can -- with the motor shut off -- peer down the throat of the carb and turn the mixture screw while watching the top of the jet. Remember that moving the top of the jet up will lean out that carb, while moving the top of the jet down will richen it.

1. Shut the car off and loosen the choke linkage nuts.

2. Adjust the mixture nuts (screws) fully lean.

For separate float-chamber cars, this means raising the mixture nut all the way up against the bottom of the carb (or rather, against the spring). For HIF carbs, you can try turning the screw while looking down the throat to see which way the jet is moving. In either case, the idea is to zero out the jet: raise it all the way up in the bridge.

3. Now drop the jet an equal amount -- two full turns for HS-type carbs, two full turns (I believe) for HIFs. Then start the car.

Note: In the following step, you might want to consider adjusting the carburetors one-half a flat too lean, as the mixture will be enriched when you put the air filters (which restrict air flow) on at the end of the tuning process.

4. Raise the lifting pin (or use a screwdriver if you don't have the pins) so that the piston rises no more than 1/16". Listen to the engine's exhaust note and compare it to the following conditions:

• If the exhaust note rises and stays high till you drop the piston, this carburetor is adjusted too rich. Turn the mixture nut one flat (one-sixth of a turn) up, moving the jet toward the bridge, then repeat Step 4.

• If the exhaust note falls and the car sounds as though it is going to stall, this carburetor is adjusted too lean. Turn the mixture nut one flat (one-sixth of a turn) down, moving the jet away from the bridge, then repeat Step 4.

• If the exhaust note rises briefly and then settles back down to something like the original RPM level, this carburetor is set correctly. When you have achieved this setting for both carburetors, continue with Step 5.

5. Tighten the choke linkage nuts so that the choke cable will pull an equal amount on both mixture nuts when you pull the knob.

6. At this time, I find I usually have to adjust the idle again because getting the fuel mixture right usually changes the idle speed. Since you know you have the throttles synchronized, I normally just adjust the idle without loosening the throttle linkage. The easiest way is to screw one of the screws out till it doesn’t' even touch the throttle stop, and then use the other to get the idle speed right. When that's done, you can screw the other stop screw down till it just touches the stop on that carb and you're set.

7. Replace the air filters and go for a test drive!

Notes

SU carburetors are most fuel-efficient when slightly lean, and provide the most power when they are slightly rich. You can use this knowledge to provide a certain amount of tuning for the kind of driving you do. If you learn to read spark plugs, you can get a basic idea of what your engine's condition is and make fine adjustments to the mixture nuts accordingly.

If you have a ColorTune, you simply install it in place of one of the plugs, and then adjust the carburetor that feeds that cylinder (the front carburetor for 1 & 2, the rear for 3 & 4). The ColorTune will let you see the color of the flame. White flashes mean too lean; yellow flame means too rich. Blue (like a Bunsen burner) is correct, and blue with a faint orangish tinge is the best for power.

You can also modify your car's throttle response characteristics slightly by adjusting the viscosity of the oil in the dashpot damper. SUs are set up so that a thicker oil will resist the piston's attempt to rise in the dashpot for just long enough that the engine's increased load (when the throttle is opened) will pull more fuel across the bridge; this enriches the mixture and temporarily bumps power up to help the engine achieve higher speed more readily.

If you modify your engine, you will probably need to modify your needles, as it is the needle profile that determines the mixture curve for different air-fuel loads.

[Bambikiller240]

If you experience uneven idle, hunting, or an idle that changes (rises or falls) as the engine's temperature climbs or drops, you probably have vacuum leaks. The most serious fault on most old SUs is wear in the throttle shaft area. To test for this, spray some carburetor cleaner on the outside of the throttle shaft; carburetor cleaner is non-combustible, and if the engine speed drops, it means some of this is getting into the air stream from outside the carburetor. You may also have leaks from the manifolds, from tubing such as the vacuum advance line to the distributor (if fitted), or from other places; the carb cleaner trick works well for locating those leaks as well.

Other problems that SU carbs experience involve dirt in the dashpot and occasionally in the float chamber. The dashpot is a precision piece of machining that involves very close tolerances so that the piston doesn't stick or bind when it rises and falls. A little grit between the piston and the dashpot can make the car jerk and sputter. Take the dashpot off, wipe the insides down with carb cleaner and a lint-free, clean rag, and then reinstall it, getting the screws down tight. Also, don't swap the pistons between dashpots; they're matched to one another so that the clearance between the piston and the wall of the dashpot makes a tight seal but permits easy rising and falling.

Dirt in the float bowl basically shuts off that carburetor (or can make it flood open, depending on whether the dirt is wedging the valve open or closed). You can try rapping on the float bowl with the handle of a screwdriver, but your best bet is to take the cover off, clean out the valve fittings, and reinstall everything, with a new fuel filter for good measure.

Some older SU models also have adjustable floats, in which you need to set the float height (which basically equals the fuel level in the float chamber) by bending a brass rod. These carburetors were replaced in the mid-1960s with carburetors that had fixed, plastic floats that are basically trouble-free unless abused. The stop at the back of the floats can break if they are installed badly, and the brass pin that holds them in place can wear an oval hole in the float pivot. New floats are fairly inexpensive and aren't a bad idea if you're doing a rebuild.

Grose-Jets are very popular with some people and a big pain for others. It appears -- and this is just conjecture -- that Grose-Jets work best in cars with adjustable floats, as they are longer than the stock SU float valves. The standard failure for Grose-Jets is to flood the carburetor. I have never had problems with the stock SU float valves or floats.

[sapruns]

Carl,

Good info, thanks.

I picked up the carb video from ZTheropy. Found that useful as well and having the tools to adjust the idle and air flow helps.

[Chino 240Z]

Hey the Video was the best $20 bucks I have spent in a long time. I got the 2 tape version, the single tape is only $15. I have got through the 1st tape and went back out to the car and opened up both SUs, cleaned up things, made the adjustments, pre-set the idle and mixture settings and fired her up and varoom she was doing fine. It was very late and the neighbors were asleep, so when I get time to make the final adjustments I think I good to go. I think ZTherapy has the unisyn flow meters for sale for around $30-$40 frog skins, I need to get one too, so I can finish up the tune-up.

Hey Mr. Killer240, that is not easy typing all that. I think tuning is actually easier than typing all that huh? Thanks for listing all that information. I have purchased 2 books on SU carbs, found a shop manual from a Datsun mechanic from many years ago (we found it in our neighbors garage while cleaning it out to help him move) also printed up lots of info. I found on this site & others and now the ZTherapy tapes, our library has grown alot overnight! Now that I got my problem worked out i need to go back and finish up my thread about the SU carb problem I had at the track the other day and why it happened.

Talk to you later.

Craig

:stupid:

[Xargon321]

well ive read how to tune it but i need to know if there is a base setting to start at, and i dont have a "flat" nut at the bottom of the carb i have a big knurled round nut with a bal bearing in the side, and wanted to know if thats the mixture control

[Bambikiller240]

Originally posted by Chino 240Z

..................Hey Mr. Killer240, that is not easy typing all that. I think tuning is actually easier than typing all that huh? ...............

Thank goodness for "Cut and Paste" functions

[240ZX]

Xargon321,

That flat nut they describe is the knurled knob, with a ball bearing, you have at the bottom of your carbs. You may want to check your float adjustments before you move forward. Once you have played with your SU's a little, you will begin to see how easy they really are! By the way, do you have a UNI-SYNC to balance the carbs air flow? If not, buy one. Pretty inexpensive at most auto parts stores. Good luck!

[Bambikiller240]

Originally posted by Xargon321

well ive read how to tune it but i need to know if there is a base setting to start at, and i dont have a "flat" nut at the bottom of the carb i have a big knurled round nut with a bal bearing in the side, and wanted to know if thats the mixture control

YES, It is the mixture nut. earlier models of the Su's had a Hex shape to the mixture nut.

Originally posted (in part) by Bambikiller240

Adjusting The Mixture:

Note: in the following procedure, one "flat" is the basic increment of adjustment, and refers to 1/6 of a turn of the mixture-adjusting nut. This corresponds to the flat faces on the nut.

I'm going to give instructions for SUs with the separate float chambers. If you have the HIF integral-float carbs, you'll have to look in a manual to see whether you turn the mixture screw to the right or the left to make it richer or leaner; I've done that once but I can't remember. Alternatively, you can -- with the motor shut off -- peer down the throat of the carb and turn the mixture screw while watching the top of the jet. Remember that moving the top of the jet up will lean out that carb, while moving the top of the jet down will richen it.

1. Shut the car off and loosen the choke linkage nuts.

2. Adjust the mixture nuts (screws) fully lean.

For separate float-chamber cars, this means raising the mixture nut all the way up against the bottom of the carb (or rather, against the spring). For HIF carbs, you can try turning the screw while looking down the throat to see which way the jet is moving. In either case, the idea is to zero out the jet: raise it all the way up in the bridge.

3. Now drop the jet an equal amount -- two full turns for HS-type carbs, two full turns (I believe) for HIFs. Then start the car.

Note: In the following step, you might want to consider adjusting the carburetors one-half a flat too lean, as the mixture will be enriched when you put the air filters (which restrict air flow) on at the end of the tuning process.

If your nuts don't have "flats" then; as the article indicates, use 1/6 of a turn of the nut when the term "Flat" is mentioned

[Chino 240Z]

If the knurled nut with ball bearings imbedded in them have been adjusted and you don't know where they are? you can start from scratch and then fine tune them. And that would be to close both of them by turning them up until they stop, then back them both open ( or down) to 2 - 3 full turns. I set mine at 2 1/2 turns. The ball bearings that you see are there to help you count your turns and help see how much you have moved the knurled nut. Set both the same amount of turns. Now with the car running you can now adjust them open or close a little at a time to find the fastest idle. To far one way will start to rough up or slow your idle so then you bring it back the other way and the idle will increase and smooth out until you have gone to far the other way. By closing it you are leaning it out, and by opening it up you are riching up the fuel. To much either way will slow and rough your idle. So by working it a little at a time you can find the best & smoothest idle. This should give you a good point to start fine tuning them. I would probably run it a little rich rather than lean, more engine damage could result from being alittle lean than rich, or wetter. You also should check the butterfly valves inside the the carb. to see that they are open equally, and a base starting point would be just cracked open tiny bit, the vaccum should pull enough air in to get it started. The Uni-sync meter will aid you in adjusting the butterfly opening so that the air flow in each carb. is the same. But these steps were the basic steps I took to get the carbs back to a starting point where I could get the car to at least run. From there begins the fine tuning.

Good Luck

Craig

[Xargon321]

thank you thats the info i needed i keep looking for a hex style nut, i figured that that was the mixture nut but wanted to make sure, 2 1/2 turns out as a starting point. i dont have a unisync yet im getting one but right now i want to see if i can get it to run fairly smooth.

[mellow]

mate....

im not experienced much atall but this is a prob i had,

your idiling at around 2000 rpm, and it backfires....

if it backfires when you turn idle down or when you gun it taking off id be checking your compression....

i blew my 5th cylender and that was making the back carb backfire and leaving black residue inside the air filter...

Not saying this is the prob you have but just an idea.....

mellow