260Z Truth

[Bambikiller240]

Originally posted by TKR514

I blame Nissan for the lowsy 260 performance, not Nixon.

I would think that Nissan did what they could, given the time frame they had to work with. It certainly was not in their best interest to make a car that did not perform to the level of previous iterations of the Z car. I do think that the anti pollution laws did put pressure on Nissan to complete development of the EFI, so in that regard the laws did spur some performance gains (arriving in 75), but 300 bhp was not seen on a stock Z for quite a while after the 73 era smog laws began to choke engine performance.

Nixon himself had little to do with any of this, he was consumed with deceiving the Justice department in order to keep his job as long as possible.

IF the government ever starts encouraging higher horsepower or performance, I'll SHOUT their praises from the nearest mountain top.

[Victor Laury]

Originally posted by Bambikiller240

I would think that Nissan did what they could, given the time frame they had to work with.

Got to agree with Carl on this one...

Given the US imposed emmission control goals at the time and the state of the art in IC emission control, can anyone remember of any auto manufacturer that did not harm performance attempting to achive them? Think of all the SUCKY (technical term) cars of the 70's. even the venerable Chevy SB was a lame horse intill the early 80's where the technology BEGAN to catch up.

[TKR514]

Stuff is so good these days that it's fun to look back and see just how bad things were.

Nissan in 73 fumbled the 260 for the U.S. market. I don't think that the home market in Japan had easier rules for smog. Nissan chose to increase displacement and change the carbs.

Hell, I would rather have seen then drop displacement and increase compression to meet the standards, but I guess that their marking folks don't want to explain how a 200Z would be an "Improved" 240Z and cost more. I would have bought a 432 Z in a heatbeat!

They had the technology to make a decent engine in the S30 . You bet they did.

[Bambikiller240]

Originally posted by TKR514

Stuff is so good these days that it's fun to look back and see just how bad things were.

It is amazing how far things have come

Originally posted by TKR514

Hell, I would rather have seen then drop displacement and increase compression to meet the standards, but I guess that their marking folks don't want to explain how a 200Z would be an "Improved" 240Z and cost more. I would have bought a 432 Z in a heatbeat!

I would have preferred that also, but I *think* that the octane rating of our gas was dropping at the same time and MAY not have supported that move

Originally posted by TKR514

They had the technology to make a decent engine in the S30 . You bet they did.

They must have figured that the Americans always felt "bigger is better". I guess.

[TKR514]

Going 2-Liter, 12 valve, 2 Webbers would have easily passed emmisions in 1974. I still wish that they went that direction in the U.S. spec S30. I'm trying to remember but I believe that high octane (91-95) leaded was still available in the States till well into 1976. ?

[EScanlon]

We need Alan or Carl Beck in on this one.

If I recall, from prior discussions on this subject, there were several reasons for the changes in body weight AND engine displacement to satisfy / comply with the Emissions Guidelines for IMPORTED cars (as opposed to American Built).

In the EARLY 70's the price of Oil had gone from less than $6 a barrel to close to $39 (if memory serves me correctly).

In addition to this there were NEW requirements for vehicle crash performance, the 5mph bumper is the most notable one of these changes.

There was also a strong movement to reduce / eliminate emissions from vehicles. The advent of "Air Alert" days or Smog Warnings etc are proof of that. Although emissions from industrial smokestacks was also in the process of being addressed, the government saw fit to address vehicles first as the most noticeable and measureable reduction in those levels.

In the old "muscle car" era, the EASIEST way to gain power was to increase engine size. The other easy way was to stuff the cylinders full of gas / air mix. Think of how many buddies you recall that tell you about having a 327 bored out 80 over, or a 350 supercharged with a Quadra-Jet carburator. There were other variations, polishing the intake manifold, adding additional carburators, and later, changing compression rings, seating valves better, balancing crankshafts, cams etc. All of these were small but cumulative changes to the Internal Combustion Engine System.

Now if you put them into the time line as far as the Z is concerned, then it's easy to note why the 260 gets a bad rap, as well as why some of those changes were effected by Datsun / Nissan.

The 70 Z is the lightest of ALL. It's Engine Torque to Vehicle Weight Ratio made it one of the nicest FASTEST sports cars around. Nissan was looking to make its next vehicle to take over from the Roadster 1600 / 2000. Now remember, the 1600 and 2000 for all the sales they did have, you're talking a vehicle whose TOTAL numbers are less than the first few years of the Z. Nissan did NOT expect the Z to take off like it did. In order to RACE it, they needed ~so~ many units PRODUCED for sale.

Race it they did, and WON many events. I will admit to not knowing the whole racing story, that's where Alan is sure to chime in and give us a good background. Suffice it to say that the Z since it's introduction and to this day, has won and continues to win major cross country rallies all over the world.

Then sales took off in the U.S.; also other countries, but the market in the U.S. and it's POTENTIAL is what induced Nissan to make the car more sales worthy.

During this time frame, both in the races and with customer use, it is noted that the vehicle is a bit too light as well as prone to crumpling during an accident. So they decide to increase the metal thickness and stiffen the car up a bit in the next production run.

At about this time, you start seeing the FIRST of the Vapor Recovery Canisters come into use. Due to the construction of the Ventilation system, those first few vehicles have a very unique Canister. They are plastic and very few have survived to this day.

However, during the INITIAL sales year, (69 + 70) a strong and potentially hazardous intake of exhaust emissions INTO the vehicle is noted. The ventilation system is reworked and the vents that were originally mounted in the Hatch are moved to the Roof Pillars and the hatch skin is changed. The Vapor Recovery Canister is changed in shape and slightly in location. Inner Plastic Trim Panels are also modified to provide the different vent location and the presence of the Vapor Canister.

The beginnings of Smog law requirements are felt and the infamous Smog Air Pump is added to the car. Although literally a "Band-Aid" fix, it does meet with whatever standards were in place.

Up to this time, the additions in weight and torque robbing smog pump have not seriously affected the Z's performance. But the further mods and changes and additions are starting to bog the engine down. This causes the engine to work harder and the first few noticeably strong overheating problems are noted. Not only in that the engine overheated, but also in that "vapor-lock" is a common complaint.

More changes to the carburation system causes further and more exasperating overheating. The carburation system is modified and a water jacket is added to try to cool the fuel intake. Again performance suffers and the increasing requirements for emissions really take their toll. The car is further weighted doiwn with the addition of the 5mph bumpers. All in all, the future is looking a bit grim.

Nissan, in an effort to maintain it's new "Export King" upsizes the engine to 2600 cc, and fully incorporates the new water jacketed and emissions compliant carburator. Sadly, the results are woefully dismal. The new 260 is plagued with service problems, overheating problems, and the car begins to get a really bad reputation. Add to this increasing gas prices and the reduction in miles per gallon and the car starts to be seen as a rich man's toy. The affordable sports car is starting to look like a typical flash in the pan.

I'll admit that I'm not fully conversant on the transition from 260 to 280. Whether it was felt that more engine would eliminate / reduce the problems or fuel injection or both I'm not sure of. I don't myself know of any carburated 280's from the factory, but that doesn't mean there weren't any. Then again, I haven't heard of a fuel injected 260, so which was first?

Since then, research into higher compression engines, more efficient engines and other factors have pushed manufacturers in different directions than 25+ years ago. The changes / requirements sometimes affect the direction of future changes just as effectively as a catastrophic failure can.

Higher compression is easier to achieve in a smaller cylinder, and hence smaller volume engine. As opposed to increasing the numbers of cylinders, etc which were also experimented with. The added complexity of the engine made it more efficient to concentrate on smaller engines. Honda, Toyota and Nissan were some of the leaders in this effort and thanks to them many of the advances we see now in ALL cars are thanks to them.

Don't forget that the reason the foreign companies were more interested in finding ways to work with the laws than GM and the others was due to the tariffs and limitations imposed on them by the government protecting Detroit. Remember Chrysler and Iaccocca? They were loaned the money to bail them out AND to allow them to effect the changes so that they could compete with the Japanese imports. Then you remember the "K" cars? Remember, it wasn't until Iacocca showed GM and Ford that they COULD change, and change well that they started to.

Ok, let the flaming begin.

Enrique

[TKR514]

Well, I also know that Nissan has it's own prejudices and tariffs. They would rather buy locally than get better carbs from "outside" Japan.

Either way, Nissan was the manufacturer and there were no "surprise" laws that Nissan (or any other manufacturer) did not know about. They, like any other manufacturer, did not want to invest a lot of money on redesign on a car that just completed design a few years earlier.

The 260 was "good enough" as far as Nissan was concerned for selling in the U.S. Market. And they were right. it was "good enough" by still selling in the same numbers as any other 1st Gen Z car (40 - 50,000 a year).

[Mr Camouflage]

Originally posted by EScanlon

At about this time, you start seeing the FIRST of the Vapor Recovery Canisters come into use. Due to the construction of the Ventilation system, those first few vehicles have a very unique Canister. They are plastic and very few have survived to this day.

Ok, let the flaming begin.

Vapour what now? Sounds like more emission stuff that was left off Australian 240z.

[4381821]

my tuna cans work for me, the car's made 120 and seemed like it was just getting ready to go.

true there seems to be more in the engine bay area associated with those particular solex carbs, than in previous years. I don't know if all that "junk" warrants me going out and spending $700+ just on a set of carbs though..

[Bambikiller240]

There is more to life that "Top Speed" like:

How long it took the car to acheive said Top Speed

Drivability under ALL conditions the car is driven in

Fuel Mileage

Only you can decide how much you are willing to pay for any level of performance. You can get Round Top SU's much cheaper than $700 and rebuild them yourself.

There are still a fair amount of Z's out there with "boat anchor" carbs in them, and they are (or can be) driven every day, but there are performance gains to be had from Round Top SU's that IMHO are not available with "boat anchors".

[Sean Dezart]

Some questions:

When did the 260 arrive and when did it finish in the States and was it in 2 and 2+ 2 format?

In order to beat the emissions laws over there, why didn't Nissan use the 2 litre engine sold in Japan (and Australia?) ?

When did the Japanese market stop being sold models under the 2 litre bracket ?

Most UK owners have changed their flat top carbs for 240 ones and a lot of people in Europe would have loved to have had the opportunity to buy the 280Z (without the smog stuff and horrible bumpers).

[260Zed]

I believe the 260z sold in the US only for about 6-8 months in 1974 (?). There was no 2 Litre version available in Oz for the 260z. Not that I see loads of other 260's but all I've seen have had round-tops retrofitted. I'm lucky enough that I havent seen the hitachi carbs in person :classic: .