geezer

Yeah, google Devil's Kettle. The river divides into two and one leg of it just dissapears into the rock to who knows where. Pretty cool but I wouldn't get too close to it. You'd never be seen again if you fell in. There are some of the best twisties I've ever seen in Minnesota. What a great drive this time of year with the fall colors. You are probably on the bus by now and it's probably too late to suggest a backpacking excursion, but I'm sure it would take your mind off this setback as well as give you a new found appreciation of Minnesota.

Thanks everyone for all the great pics! Looks like a great time was had by all that attended, but it also looks like Chris had more fun than most!

That wouldn't be Johnny Appleseed would it? I get them mixed up. There is a huge Paul Bunyan figure along that route too. I think I've been there more than a few times. I was broke down in a place called Devil's Kettle not far from Grand Marais Minnesota for 3 days once. Had a great time. Good luck with the repairs and try to enjoy yourself. The trees must be changing beautifully by now. Woops! yep the Jolly Green Giant. Good call Mike, you sure know your larger than life roadside figures.

It looks like this car has already been relieved of most of the early car specific parts. I don't believe you could recoupe the purchase price by parting what is left and it would be cost prohibitive to restore. That's not to say the seller doesn't have that much into the parts he's giving with it, their just not the correct parts. A better starting point could be found if someone is looking to restore an early car, in my opinion. An itemized list of the 5% of the parts missing would be nice to compare to what is really missing.

I found it cute that the entire description consists of mainly standard features but the A/C wasn't listed. It looks like a typical description composed by someone not really familiar with these cars. The fuel door looks odd with both the finger pull and lock knob. Hard to tell if that is a keyed knob or not. The choke knob has got to go too. The description doesn't mention a repaint and I would ask questions. In the pic of the roof you can see paint on the windshield rubber. It does look good in the pics that are provided and deserves a look in person if anyone is interested. I certainly wouldn't advise putting a serious bid on this car without it being looked over closely. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120473777402&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

There's just something fundamentally wrong in my opinion when the auction house gets 10% from the seller and another 10% from the buyer. It's all grandstanding and hype designed to generate more profits for Barrette Jackson. I wouldn't consider bidding on any car under those terms. I agree that it is not the best venue to offer up a Z car. How many potential buyers do you think are planning to attend to bid on the Z, knowing that ultimately that extra 20% that Barrette Jackson gets will be paid by the buyer because the seller has factored that into the price already. Better deals can be found elsewhere. Just my opinion.

I noticed it does have a half cap on the dash. It might be worth making the trip to get a better look if you are interested in it. Unless someone steps up and vouches for the condition of this car I would be leary of bidding it up too high. The pictures do show well, but a good going over in person is better than any picture.

Jeff, if it comes down to replacing the transistor unit, you could PM beezee to see if he still has an extra one available. If he does and you need it, I can help get it to you on time. http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showpost.php?p=286438&postcount=8

Highlighted diagrams. Sorry I can't offer a solution. I vaguely remember having the same symptoms on a GM car that had lost the ignition sense signal.

Jeff, I have the Ignition Systems manual for the 260Z. Here are a few pages that cover the Volt-OHM Meter checks that may help.

He must have, those are posters of that same Z. I recognized it as the car that was pictured in a Octane magazine article in April 2005. Still a beauty and keeping good company with Alan's car. Very nice Alan!

Just added mine. GOOD LUCK!!

Some of the very questions I had, but have since ruled out stamping. Yes HLS30-11730. I wish I could have gotten better pictures. I'm in the running for worst photographer of the year. Everytime I tried getting a closeup the pics became blurry. This is where my old film camera with the macro lens would have been much more effective. Looking at it with a magnifying glass the milling marks were still visible in a few areas. I gave some thought to it being carved out with a larger bit and possibly chased with a much smaller one to further define the font or visa versa. What I thought was a symbol of some kind and Chris said, "looks to me like the head of the rotary tool was dragged a bit between the two numbers", could be the smaller bit? Regardless of the cutters used, there still is no evidence of being stamped from the backside. It will take someone with better eyes and equipment than me to solve this mystery. I would not underestimate Nissan, who could have used a complex or multi step process to create this distinctively unique font.

It appears that either the equipment improved or the operators became more skilled by the time Michael's 11/75 build '76 280Z was produced. It is very well layed out, but my opinion is, if the paint was removed it would become obvious that it also was engraved. Also the B210 has a well refined appearance that seems to take human inconsistancies out of the equation. The PGC10 Skyline GT-R example is nicely done and perhaps more of a concious effort was put into its execution? Bonzi has a good understanding of the 60's technology that would have been used to engrave these numbers and can probably come up with a better explanation than me. I find myself comparing it to the operating principal of an old Wrico lettering set that I still have. I'm visualizing a small rotary cutter in place of the lead/ink stanchion, built into a compact, portable unit that is easily dialed in to the letters/numbers needed. There are several holes drilled into the firewall in this area that could have served as locating points for a small handheld unit. Is this along the lines of a "Leroy" device? Guess I should look that up. PS - Ian, I know that what is quicker or more convenient does not always factor into how this would be done. In our North American plants we were directed by the Federal government to use special "rosette" rivets to fasten the VIN plates to the instrument panels. They were stainless steel and a real pain to drill out if nessesary to change a plate (which happened occasionally). The placement of the VIN plates were also not in an easily accessible location after the windshield was installed either. All meant to thwart the activities of the less scrupulous.

It is unanimous up to this point with 5 VIN numbers being studied closely. Unless we have someone come forward with evidence of their chassis numbers being stamped, I think it is safe to say they were engraved. I agree on the specialized font that was used. It is unique and not easily reproduced. I did notice though, on my car the numbers are not spaced perfectly and are not positioned evenly horizontally either. Not a very good pic, but if you look very closely, you will also see a small symbol before the last digit of "0" that is engraved also. Wonder what the significance of that could be? It will be interesting to see if there is a master pattern that develops with different number progressions when we compare these.

Thanks for taking a good look at the chassis number Zak. Eventually we will get feedback from examples across the S30 timeline but that will take while. Unless the paint is chemically stripped, which mine was, at the time I noticed this, it could be tough to make a determination. I know Will is going to check a few and this is just something of interest to look for at the opportune time during a restoration or perhaps when a car is being parted. The illustrations, pics, sketches, etc. are great Chris and they sure fuel the imagination. Everyone looks at these and comes away with a different idea of what they are looking at and I hope the explanations I shared, shed a little light on the subject. I have opinions and my skewed North American views of how these cars were constructed but not much in the way of tangible proof. I suspect we will always have unanswered questions. As you know this Metal Shop flow chart was originally used for another purpose but should help us determine the order of assembly. It is actually only a matter of identifying all of the stampings that belong to each of the different lines, then determine the logical order of assembly. We also have to keep in mind that each of these lines have sub-assembly feeders. Many of these assemblies are spotwelded together using pedistal spot welders offline, (as you noticed when you were looking at Her Majesty the 26th naked) then clamped & welded in place on the line. The parts catalogs have some great illustrations that can help but I noticed they can also throw a few curves. I haven't given this study much thought lately and my line of thinking was, if this thread was started, more input from those interested sure can't hurt and may get us thinking about it more. I really don't care how "off the wall" anyone might think their questions or ideas will be taken, throw them out here. I am going to review my notes and then start line by line describing how I think this build was done. I find it difficult though to keep what happened in Japan all those years ago seperate from my own knowledge and experiences here. The similarities are uncanny. PS - Chris, it's been a while since you mentioned the upright support bracket on the inside of the rear panel. Remember you said every Z made had a vertical strip there that was void of paint. I keep forgetting to tell you what I think it is. Going through the Paintshop every car had a heavy ground cable clamped from that general location to the body cart it was riding on. A safety precaution I've seen in every plant I've been in. It's located there for ease of attaching & removal. If I'm wrong about that, the only other thing that comes to mind, would be a temporary hatch support?

I checked 1 through 8 with the exception of 3. A rotation of any combination of these would be fine by me. I'm not much for celebrity cars, movie cars or cars from TV shows but maybe my patrons would be and that is who I would be catering to. So you have to keep in mind the visiting publics interests more than your own. Otherwise it would be more like a private collection than a museum.

For the longest time I was convinced the number was stamped on the cowl in sub-assembly before becoming a part of the shell. One of the reasons I was stuck on that opinion was that I couldn't see how the number could have been stamped without a solid backing. I was trying to imagine how this could be done on a completed shell. What I discovered, (and I would like to hear what others have found) is the number on my car wasn't stamped at all. It was engraved on. I studied it under magnification from both sides. From the backside you cannot see any evidence of the number being stamped. Looking at the numbers under the magnifying glass its easy to see the metal was carved out and not stamped. I would have loved to see this when it was done. I'm left wondering what the equipment used looked like. Other than that, I'm now a believer in your theory Bonzi. What you describe is totally logical to me.

This is part of an ongoing study of the S30s construction. I have enlisted the use of this chart to illustrate the S30s movement through the Metal Shop. The chart and the names of the lines are provided by Nissan. This was the Metal Shop Layout that was used at the District 1 Shonan Plant, the District 2 Shonan Plant and the Kyoto Plant. It is the first time I have seen an overview/flow chart of Nissan's Metal Shops. Although several technological improvements would have undoubtedly been made since the S30 run, I believe this general layout would closely resemble the system used. The jury is still out. Did Nissan use a “buck” system for frameup during the S30 run? That method would consist of permanently mounted stationary sets of hydraulic arms with multiple hydraulic clamps that were electrically controlled. They would be used to position, clamp & maintain tolerances while being welded. The shell would then be unclamped and sent to the next station and the next assembly would move into its place. Or, did they use a traveling platform jig system which consisted of identical platform jigs that would move in unison and stop at each station, where parts were added, clamped, then welded? Anyhow, looking at this illustration you will not see an exacting layout of the Metal Shop, but a drawing representing how it works (flow chart). The actual configuration would not remotely look like this. This is kind of like comparing a wiring diagram with what is actually in your car. Notice the names of the lines: Engine Compartment Line The actual cowl panel would be a part of the floor assembly. It looks like everything ahead of the cowl panel is part of a separate assembly and built on this line. Just like the Nissan Shatai sketch discussed in an earlier thread led me to believe. Manual Line Because of the location in the system, I am led to believe this is for the construction of special or low production number models, suggested by the reduced number of platform jigs or work stations. This line could run independently and at a slower speed then the rest of the system. What comes to mind are the different parts required to build differing chassis and floor pans to accommodate special fuel tanks or suspension components, etc. Floor Main Line You can see where the Engine Compartment assemblies join up with the first section of the Floor Line and also the floors that were built on the Manual Line meet up here. Floor Main Line More pieces are clamped and welded in prep for the Body Sides Body Side RH Body Side LH In the case of the S30 using this progression of events the quarter assemblies would be built on these lines, and maybe the outer rockers were a part of this assembly? Body Main The Body Sides meet up with the combined Engine Compartment & Floor assemblies and are incorporated into the build here. The associated parts and roof panel are added here also. Body Main final welding Exactly as it says. You can liken it to the North American Re-spot. Metal Line All the leading, grinding, metal finish work is done here, as well as hanging doors, hatch and hood. Then it’s off to Paint. I would like to point out the linear progression method used here. You can see on the plan the individual stops that would be occupied by an assembly in its particular stage of build. In each one of these segments the platform jigs would move in unison with each other to the next station, then stop until each process is completed. Each station has what is called a process performed. Each process would be a description of the parts added and welded on, the application of sealer etc. whatever work was done. There could be a team of a dozen workers or more at a single station all performing a different process. We have a good picture representative of this. Also, a metal repair area would be incorporated into this plan along with what we called “the cookie jar” where the excess units above and beyond the quota were kept. In case of a breakdown or production shortfall they were sent off to paint. Also a replacement body/shell could be extracted and used to replace one that met with an unfortunate demise along the way. I’m still studying theories on how the chassis numbers were controlled in the event of a shell being pulled from the lineup. I believe this is very close to the S30 Metal Shop layout. Until more evidence presents itself, we can only study our cars and use our imagination to figure out the order of the individual parts being clamped on and welded, but keep this build format in mind. I would bet the farm, it is not far off the mark. If anyone has any thoughts or anything that they would like to discuss, contribute, critique. etc., please do. Keep in mind most of my contribution is considered theory only until proven and I’m just having fun with this.

Hi Enrique. You must have missed it in my last post. This is included under the umbrella of "subject to change" for any number of reasons. Seriously, you make some good points. I vaguely remember most of the politically motivated storys and rulings of the period and probably would have been convinced it was for the good of our North American industry at the time. I wasn't at all concerned about the obstacles that had to be overcome by the Japanese and their desire to branch out throughout the world. There must be some good reading available covering this subject. I'm much more interested today. I have only read a few books concerning Japanese industry. William Gorham An American Engineer in Japan was an excellent read but set in a much earlier time period. Another excellent read is Engineered in Japan. It is set in a later time period but still one of my favorites. Great insight dealing with Japanese technology, management practices and the interaction worldwide sharing ideas & technology. A miriad of topics are covered. I seem to have a big gap in my library. Nothing that deals with trade practices of the S30 era. No doubt, the Japanese had to rise above a great deal of adversity and they did.

This is an interesting topic but unfortunately I find myself intruding on a thread because this was loosely related. I will leave it up to the moderators to spin it off into a separate thread or beat my a$$ with a stick. I don’t think you can lump any of these parts mentioned into the same scenario. A different circumstance accompanies each of them. The designers’ vision is one thing and what becomes reality is always different and “subject to change” for any number of reasons. Today this disclaimer is included in virtually every media release or sales brochure for good reason. The daily chain of events leading up to “what is” is not always controlled by the powers to be either, especially during the launch of a totally new model, nothing is cut & dried. The logistics involved are staggering. Department heads have to stay well connected to assess the constantly changing flow of events. Meeting are frequent, proposals and best practice options are put forth and discussed on dozens of points daily. I agree with the “working until the introduction of the car to finalize what the right mix of options and cost would be,” but it doesn’t end there and never does. In the case of the heated rear window, I believe decisions had to be made early on, to insure the continuity of product designation in each market, or prevent production delays. Also the previously produced glass had to be used. It is not as easy as one might think to simply adjust the parts inventory levels as needed, especially during launch. The lead time from concept to development was much longer than today. You can request X number of pieces per, but the number guaranteed may be much less until production gets up to speed. Only after surpassing glass production parity with market requirements can you consider adjusting inventory levels. In the mean time supplying a much smaller market could be guaranteed a supply deemed sufficient. The information is compiled, and a plan is discussed and implemented after approval. Ah…to be a fly on the wall. I don’t intend anyone to take any of this as fact. Just speculation.

Not directly related to HLS30-00013 or its significance to our hobby but here it is. In my past I worked on several pilot programs preparing for the launch of new models. Most of you would be shocked to see the deplorable condition of these "early cars". In my view and the view of all of my co-workers, we would much rather wait until the buzz, squeaks & rattles were under control, as well as countless larger problems, before buying one ourselves. Funny now, but we actually had and it still exists, what we called the BSR team, complete with a uniquely outfitted building that included amongst the equipment, a shaker platform and adjoining test track. Point being, no one involved in the pre-production or early production was lining up to be the first in line for whatever model we were launching. Years later in retrospec I remember the difficulty of fitting the nose to the Plymouth Superbird and the joking amongst ourselves about how anyone buying one would be the butt of all jokes. That was then. Today::laugh: Point being, the value associated with any car that has reached collectable status is only in retrospec and only in the mind of a collector, but rightfully so. A premium being put on a lower chassis number is only a point of amusement to most of us but I am grateful for the commitment of the special breed of collectors who preserve history for all of us. My HLS30-11730 is as of now the last built and registered as a 1970 in 1970, HLS30 known. My pilot program days had nothing to do with that. Just coincidence.

Just thinking out loud here Mike. I have given a great deal of thought to some of the features available in other markets but not to us in North America. I have convinced myself that it wasn't necessarilly the view of Nissan "that it wasn't necessary for cars exported to the North American market", being the reason for the early cars not being fitted with the heated rear glass. Nissan developed the policy of marketing a single standard model (HLS30) to the North American Market without the convenience of the customer being able to order from an Options List ( like in Japan ), in which case the selected options would have been added while being built, in most cases. I think that early on in the S30 run, parts supply was not yet up to the speed required to keep up with the expected sales projections in the North American Market and in keeping with their "standard model" policy, had no choice but to delay the heated rear window introduction until it could be done across the board. Sorry for piling my speculative views on this thread.

This, I suspect reflects the feelings of many of us. I'm just as guilty as anyone when it comes to drifting off topic, but this ongoing difference of opinion really deserves it's own thread instead of the much too frequent invasion of other threads. That I believe was part of Frank T's reasoning, regardless of who thinks the deleting of posts was justified or not. This argument will likely never be resolved to everyones satifaction, but it merits discussion and is interesting to me. I have learned much sitting ringside from both viewpoints. Look up tenacious in the dictionary. A word of many meanings/applications that can be used to describe the main speakers in this debate. Alan, you asked; "Again, if anyone can see anything hugely insulting or objectional in there ( surely not? ) then I'd appreciate having it pointed out to me." All I see objectionable is the deviation off topic and we have to admire Frank T for his patience, as long as it heldout. He is just steering his ship away from rough waters. I also admire your steadfast commitment to the "whole story" and I enjoy learning from your posts, but there will always be instances like this where you will encounter some that don't really see the importance of what you are laying down.

This is correct. There was no provision for wiring a rear defroster before HLS30-01456 in the harness but detailed instructions and a part list were available for retrofitting. The bulletin covering this installation is dated 04/72. I have a wiring diagram that has the rear defroster grid wiring incorporated into it as well as showing the blower (fan) switch and motor. It is supposedly for the US/Canada early cars but also shows the passing relay circuit as well as A/C wiring addon info. Seems to be a compilation of what was missing on other diagrams and obviously drawn up years after the fact. I don't think the color coding can be relied on. Here is the diagram for the defroster grid in the bulletin.