HS30-H

The first ones used for racing never left Japan.

Bearing in mind this is an Englishman trying to explain a Japanese term to an American here ( Kats would probably be the best person to answer the question ) :nervous: : 'Sha' = Car ( quite literally derived from carriage, but the Kanji has its roots in the symbol for a wheel I believe ). 'Tai' = Body ( such as the body of a coach, carriage or other wheeled vehicle ). 'Ban go' = Number ( although the two Kanji characters need a little more explanation than that ). So let's call it 'Car Body Number'. Of course, the term 'Shatai Bango' in the vernacular implies inclusion of the Series and Model Type ( 'S30' / 'PS30' / 'HS30' etc etc ) as well as the actual body serial number, and also does not include the prefixes and suffixes that the factory used internally to identify the sub-model and variant more closely. That's my 'translation' anyway. Alan T.

I'm bracing myself for the unexpected. There's a good chance that the order might not have been all that logical. I kind of like your attempt more than I like mine now - but we are probably both wrong ( ? )....... When I was mulling over the possible order of that first 14, I tried to think what the situation would have been like within the different 'teams' of engineers, bean counters and management staff with regard to getting what they wanted. If I were there at the time, I'd be lobbying for my personal area of responsibility to be taken into account - so I'd want input on how certain things were done, and I'd want to know what 'rival' sections were doing that would affect me and my section doing our job properly. I imagined a kind of Tug-O-War between different individuals and sections trying to get what they wanted. Even the publicity and advertising guys would be wanting to get hold of cars to photograph and play with. For sure the competitions departments at Oppama and Omori would be in a big hurry to get their first guinea pigs to experiment on, and would be making suggestions and stipulations for what they wanted. Some kind of pecking order would have come into play. And one thing keeps popping into my head; The sheer lack of time between these very first cars being made in dribs and drabs from May until the factory let the Japanese motoring press loose on complete 'production' cars in October, and debuted the cars for sales orders at the Tokyo Auto Show in November. No wonder they needed to make a few design and engineering modifications - the customers were doing most of the testing! Alan T.

That sounds completely upside down to me. Surely the single thing that is 'set in stone' so to speak is the prefix and serial number stamped into the firewall sheetmetal at time of manufacture. I'd say that all the other tags, labels and paperwork are "references to" that - rather than the other way around? And it might be the legal situation in the USA that the dash tag is the reference point, but it certainly isn't elsewhere. In fact, the dash-mounted "VIN / body serial number" tag wasn't even present on Domestic and RHD Export cars. I don't believe it was present on all the non-USA / Canada LHD Export cars either. It is quite clear what the factory position would be. Certainly here in the UK ( and I know for sure in Japan too ) the authorities are mainly interested in the number that is stamped into the body sheetmetal. After all, if I were to take the metal tags off of - for example - HS30-00001, and attach them to the body of HS30-00999, it does NOT mean that I now have HS30-00001, does it? I'm tempted to stop using the term "VIN". I'd much rather use the Japanese term "Shatai Bango" for when we discuss the combination of model prefixes and body serial numbers. Andy will probably report here on the body in due course. He has only recently taken delivery of it. I'd like to see pictures of it in natural light, and a little cleaned up. My personal impressions of it ( in a dark and dusty barn, with many used parts jumbled around, inside and on top of it ) were that it had all the normal factory-applied seam-sealer, tabs and fixtures present on a standard production car - and looked as though it had gone through the normal factory production processes UNTIL just before being painted in a colour coat. I would say it was likely plucked off the standard production line at that point and diverted with the express intention of being sent as it stood to NMC USA ( for them to distribute to BRE or Bob Sharp as they saw fit ). I half expected to see something special or 'built-to-purpose' because of the alleged BSR connection ( along the lines of the Works bodyshells ) but it did not show any features or modifications that I recognised as out of the ordinary. In retrospect this should not be a surprise, as BSR and BRE were doing their own thing with the cars / 'shells anyway. Alan T.

Hello Kats, I'm enjoying the way that you are presenting this new information. The specifications for the VIN / serial number stamping are fascinating. I'm not very good at winning things, but the sequence order fascinates me - so I'll give it a shot and perhaps make a fool of myself : Here's my *guess*: May 1969 - total 2 cars: 1 = *S30-00001 2 = *HLS30-00001 June 1969 - total 1 car: 3 = *PS30-00001 July 1969 - total 4 cars: 4 = *S30-00002 5 = *HLS30-00002 6 = *HS30-00001 7 = *PS30-00002 August 1969 - total 7 cars: 8 = *S30-00003 9 = *HLS30-00003 10 = *PS30-00003 11 = *S30-00004 12 = *PS30-00004 13 = *S30-00005 14 = *PS30-00005 Probably way off? :stupid: Alan T.

Anybody with an interest in the subjects discussed in this thread - and specifically the points raised in the above quote - might like to check out post #96 on this thread: http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?p=178255 ......which contains NEW information from a very reliable source: So HS30-00001 was built in July 1969 ( before HLS30-00003 ). Interesting and relevant, I think. Alan T.

OK, I understand. My thoughts when I originally saw it were that it might very well have been intended as a 'donor' for some of its sections ( ie - never expressly intended to be used complete and 'as is' ) and was possibly supplied as the most logical bite-sized chunk of body to include that part which was needed. I too can't imagine the complexity in trying to attach it to an existing car; surely a damaged car that needed such a part would be beyond economical repair? Whoah, careful there. The earliest of the Works rally cars were built up from a mixture of dedicated pressings and standard production parts. That's hardly what I'd call "customized". I'd call that built-to-purpose. Those cars had VIN / body serial numbers because they had to have them in order to compete legally. The 432-Rs that were sold to the general public also had VIN / body serial numbers - despite the fact that they had completely different body panel pressings to even their closest relatives the 432s. Just dwell for a moment on the thought that both the PZ and the PZR shared the 'PS30' VIN prefix and body serial number sequence, but that their bare bodyshells were made from hugely different pressings, and it might help to bring a little bit of perspective about what the presence if a factory-stamped number in the firewall actually represented........ The factory circuit race cars, Nissan Racing School cars and Japanese 'pace' cars? Most of them did have VIN / serial numbers - but I'm told ( and yes, this is anecdotal ) there were some that did not, and some that were stamped much later in life for reasons of expediency and rule compliance. Thorny subject. Alan T.

Hello Kats, First of all - very best wishes to you on your birthday ( and its on Father's Day too! ). Many happy returns of the day. Regarding HS30-00034 - we already knew roughly when that particular car was made. At least - judging from the parts that were bolted onto the bodyshell - we think we know when the car rolled off the production line. We even know a good deal about HS30-00004 - so the fact that both cars rolled off the production line in calendar year 1970 is not in dispute ( even if that does not prove when their bodyshells were made ). We know that there was a BIG gap in export market HS30 production. What has always annoyed / frustrated me is the assumption that this in some way proved that HS30-00001, HS30-00002 & HS30-00003 were also made in 1970. It is somewhat surprising that such assumptions have been allowed to be used as some kind of 'proof' against the integrity of the HS30 export model as part of the original lineup of S30-series Z models at the design, engineering and pre-productionisation stages of the process. In short, if even a single HS30 was made so early in the production process, it shows that it must have been of significance to Nissan and must also have been a consideration at the design stages of the S30-series Z. We already know that the RHD domestic models were a significant part of that process - even if Carl Beck urges us to believe that they were insignificant: ..... so proof that an Export market RHD car was also amongst the first cars produced helps us to understand a little more of the overall picture - especially with regard to those design, engineering and productionisation processes. In my opinion, he needs to start thinking about amending a little bit more than his website. To actively divide the S30-series Z 'family' of models, and to preach that one of the models completely overshadowed the design and engineering of the others, is divisive and misleading to say the least. But I'm sure we will hear the same old stuff repeated, just the same as always. Alan T.

By the way, the following quotes are taken from the early pages of this thread: ......... and that's only on this thread - let alone any others. Thank you for being such fun to quote, Carl. I had a couple of extra slices of toast with my breakfast this morning. Alan T.

Hello Kats, This is excellent information. Thank you very very much indeed. I was told in Japan many years ago that 'HS30' RHD 'Datsun 240Z' models were being made from the very earliest days of pre-production preparations ( which always made perfect logical sense to me ), and your newly-uncovered data confirms that fact. Thank you. I will echo what has already been said above, and urge you not to compromise your source just to please us. Your word and assurance ( and explanation for not publishing ) is totally trusted - so please protect the relationship that you are fostering with your source. In the long run, we will all benefit from being patient. I quite understand your position. In my research on the factory competition cars I have been lucky enough to meet certain people and be given certain information, documents and photos that can not be published on public forums for fear of alienating and offending the source. So don't be worried Kats - I'm sure that everybody understands. A phrase Sir Robert Baden Powell learned from the people of Ghana; "Softly, softly, catchee monkey"............ Alan T.

There is one right here in the UK. I'm sure I told you about this before? It is a very early 'RLS30' body ( RLS30-000017 in fact ) that was originally supplied by Nissan to Bob Sharp Racing as a 'spare' bodyshell - eventually to be built up into a race car should it ever be needed. I'm guessing that BSR possibly received either another of these 'White Bodies' and/or a couple of complete early RLS30s too ( around the time that the first RLS30s were being produced ). Anyway, this body was never actually built up into a running car and was eventually sold off to a private individual who also never used it. It seems to have passed through at least one other pair of hands on the east coast of the USA before my friend Geoff Jackson of Fourways Engineering purchased it and brought it over to the UK. Once in the UK it was partially converted to an RHD configuration and given a couple of coats of primer, but then put back into storage. It stayed in storage for some years, but earlier this year was dis-interred and sold. It may well finally be built up into a complete car after all these years. It is a complete basic bodyshell ( no bolt-on panels whatsoever ) and of course the sheetmetal tabs for the wiring and accessories have never been 'bent' over - which is fun to see. Anyone who sees it in the metal can instantly recognise that this is clearly a 'virgin' unused 'shell - even if it has a healthy coat of surface rust spots and the ( reversible ) RHD conversion. What I found interesting about this bodyshell was that it was supplied WITH A COMPLETE VIN AND BODY SERIAL NUMBER. We could get our teeth into another nice 'philosophical' discussion about what actually constitutes a car and what actually constitutes an identity for that car. To my mind, this bodyshell is 'RLS30-000017' - and hanging a set of panels and a full set of mechanicals on it doesn't really change that fact all that much. It would have been included in the production records and quantities at the factory, and arguably has carried its identity all the way through its 'life' so far. That I find interesting. My personal take on this is that RLS30-000017 was plucked from the normal production process expressly to be sent to BSR. Now, if Nissan had supplied "replacement" ( 'White Body' / 'Body in White' ) bodyshells for the S30-series Z, surely they would have had to have 'blank' body serial numbers? If they were supplied with the intention of repairing damaged cars, but had full VIN / body serial numbers from the production line, then they would not be 'repairing' - but actually 'replacing' the original identity with a new one. That's one of the reasons why I see a factory-stamped VIN / body serial number as an 'identity' in its own right, and can't stop myself from imagining that a car's identity arguably *begins* when the VIN & body serial number combination was whacked into the firewall sheetmetal............... Alan T.

Hello Kats, If the 'Kojyo Shisaku' cars were given full VIN and body serial numbers, then it will have a knock-on effect for the numbers that we discussed previously. I'm immediately thinking about the cars sent over for the 'North American' testing. This new information will affect the 'HLS30' serial numbers that we guessed for them, won't it? If your new information has the answers to these questions, then I for one am very interested to hear it. It would be nice to hear of any possible reasons for the order sequence too.............. Alan T.

Miles, "......pop up........"? You make it sound as though I'm being impertinent by daring to ask questions about any of this. I'm not calling Bruce a liar or a fool, but the story he has told - and the 'evidence' presented - is not exactly adding up is it? Nissan did prepare 'race' engines and identify them with an 'R' mark ( sometimes painted on the engine blocks, sometimes not marked at all except on paper ) so this 'R' type L6 story could have snowballed from a basic grain of truth and become something else entirely. For example, there were 'LR24' engines being put together at Oppama and Omori in 1970 & 1971 - but none of those engines had an extra 'R' stamped into their block numbers. Nissan used the 'LR24' code internally ( just like their 'Kanri bango' system ) and it was never intended to be used or even understood by their customers. However, people hear about it and it becomes legend. Nissan also made all sorts of special race-oriented parts and equipment that were not sold to the general public ( quite apart from their 'Sport Option' and race option parts which were ) and some of these made it into the hands of privateers via a trickle-down effect - so it is interesting when they occasionally turn up, but not altogether surprising that only limited data for them can be sourced. However, most of these parts are easily identifiable as 'special' - and with a little digging some of the truth surrounding them can be uncovered. Especially if you ask the right questions to the right people. I've asked some ( I think pertinent ) questions about this "L28R", and made some points about homologation and 'race' use in connection with parts and cars that were sold to the general public. If this engine ( possibly in a special South African-market R30? ) was ever sold to the general public, then there will be documentary evidence to back it up. If it was a legitimately homologated 'race' item then there will be evidence out there to back that up too. I'm all ears. But I'm doubtful about some of the specifications according to the anecdotal evidence. Why would Nissan be designing and building a normally-aspirated L28 with "bigger" bearings in the late Seventies / early Eighties period? Doesn't make any sense to me at all from either a financial or engineering-oriented viewpoint. Alan T.

websteg, I've sent photos, dimensions and weight of the transmission to you - but have heard nothing back from you for a couple of weeks now. I presume you are not interested anymore then?

Don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds to me as though there is some information and speculation that doesn't completely add up here. So do you think this "L28R" engine was actually fitted to this South African-market R30 Skyline from the Factory? Was this a Japanese-manufactured R30, or a South African-manufactured R30 model? First R30s would be - what, 1981 or so? That's pretty late for any 'special' ( or indeed "race" ) L-gata engines to have been developed expressly for racing. The major push in competition-oriented development for the R30 model in Japan was with the FJ-series engine - not a high capacity N/A donk nearing the end of its production life like the L6. Makes it sound like a locally-manufactured confection for a particular job - but what? So you are saying that this engine had an extra letter 'R' stamped into its block as part of its engine number at manufacture? I've seen Nissan 'LR24' race engines that used standard production-based blocks ( no extra 'R' in the block numbers ) and I've seen Nissan pure race blocks too ( no numbers at all ) but I've never seen or heard of an 'L28R' block. Now why would they need to stamp the letter 'R' into them? Usually that kind of thing is done expressly to satisfy homologation regulations - which would likely mean a certain quantity would have been made, fitted to cars, and sold the to the general public. It would also mean that homologation papers would exist for an R30 model with that engine type, and documentary evidence of race use ( presumably in South Africa ) would exist....... I'm familiar with some special race-dedicated heads for the L6, but these had no type identification marks cast into them ( I'm wondering what casting yours had? ) and they used quite radically different inlet manifolds that were not interchangeable with the standard production L-gata units - so they are easily indentifiable. Yours doesn't sound like one of these? "Larger bearings"? Are we talking Mains and Rod bearings here? That I find surprising. How was this achieved I wonder ( and why would it have been necessary? )? Curious. Do you remember any details of the fuel and ignition systems on this engine? Surely if it was a true "race" engine these too would be quite special? Like I said - don't take it the wrong way, but questions are sure to be asked when this kind of story comes out of the woodwork. Alan T.

Another thread from 2003 with diagrams and pics too: http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7697

The next page in the Japanese edition shows that the car has a Japanese-market 'Z' emblem on its bonnet ( hood ) instead of the HLS30-U correct 'Datsun' emblem. 'Dad' explains that the car was "....named the 'Datsun 240Z' in America, and named 'Fairlady Z' in Japan." Not your average Dad, then :-)

Carl, When I wrote "fundamentally different", I meant that they are two different publications with two different ISBN numbers and in two different languages. The fact that they are in different languages seemed to me to be a major point ( especially as you were discussing the English language version when Gee's link showed the cover of the Japanese version ). I didn't want anyone to order one and get the other - if you see what I mean? I am sure that the presentation of the story - and most likely all the original drawings - have stayed the same, but I can already see some slight 'tweaking' towards the perceived customer base for the English language version. In the grand scheme of things this will probably make little difference, as the original Japanese version reflected the content of the NHK 'Project X' episode that it was based on. There are mistakes and historical errors, and a large part of the story is left out whilst the whole bias of the story seems to be based on Katayama having some kind of 'vision' for the Z and everybody else working towards making that vision a reality. That's a huge oversimplification in my view. Katayama or no Katayama, Nissan would have built a 'replacement' or successor to the SP/SR anyway - and indeed this is what Matsuo and his team were working on when Katayama came into that part of the story. Such a car would inevitably have been sold in the world's biggest single market and would therefore have been designed with such in mind ( like most of the cars that were sold alongside it - although we rarely hear about them, except for the 510 perhaps ). Matsuo says he was working on designing a car firstly for himself ( hopefully we all understand what he means by that ) and secondly for Japan and the rest of the World - not just the USA market. That's where the USA-market centric part of the story grates; It is presented as though this was the single reason and aim for the car's existence - which is not the case, is it? But I don't want to criticise either the original NHK episode or the manga too much. At the very least, they introduced the names and identities of many of the key players in the story and left out 'The Lying Count'. There is a lot here that we should be glad about - but I don't think anybody ( including the main characters themselves ) thinks of this as the 'definitive' historical version, and the manga itself was something of a fun spin-off to the TV show. And Matsuo did say to me with a chuckle that he called the manga ".......the Hollywood version......". He pointed out a couple of things in the manga that had been changed to make the story 'play' a bit better, and one of these was the full story surrounding the Z signal flag - which he recounts fairly differently. Alan T.

Carl, Watch out for typos. One of the above ISBNs must be wrong........ ISBN for the original Japanese version is ISBN4-87287-899-X. So we are talking about two fundamentally different versions here. Anyone who wants to order one might need to be careful about which version they require ( get both! ). Gareth, The ISBN for "Fairlady Z Story - Datsun SP/SR & Z" with contributions by Yutaka Katayama, Yoshihiko Matsuo, Hideaki Kataoka & Brian Long - published by MIKI PRESS in 1999 - is: ISBN4-89522-244-6. That article in 'Classic Cars' is pretty much the usual fare I'm afraid. They don't seem to try all that hard with the pages they dedicate to the Z. Cheers, Alan T.

Surely we are talking about TWO distinctly different books here? The one I have is the original Japanese language version, and the other must be the 'translated' English language version. Both are by the same author, but the content ( like the cover ) appears to have been slightly tweaked to appeal to an English-speaking audience. Note the different covers and titles:

Carl, Did you "read" the original Japanese issue, or the 'translated' English-language version? The link that Gee provided showed the Japanese issue I believe. "240-Z" is not mentioned in the title, frontispiece, back cover or spine of the original Japanese issue - so I presume you must be quoting from another ( different ) publication. Alan T.

Don't look at me for a while. I'm busy moving home. I don't know where anything is at the moment........

I wouldn't dare pick on you. But seriously, the link shows a picture of the second Japanese edition from 2004 ( it was first published in 2003 ) which had the space on the lower front cover for the Carlos Ghosn mugshot slipover, which I use as the bullseye on my darts board. I thought the English-language version has the picture of the SCCA-type race car on the front cover?

I second the recommendation. I've had these books for a number of years and still keep dipping into them. They are really nice things to have on the shelf. Well worth the money. The section written by Rauno Aaltonen in 'Fairlady II' is particularly good, and I think it shows why the Japanese rally team mechanics and staff held him in such esteem. Alan T.

Surely Gee's link shows the original untranslated Japanese version? Are you getting it mixed up with the English translation version that was recently published? The cover is certainly quite different. That's interesting. Matsuo san described it to me in those exact same words. That's a coincidence isn't it? Kind of a microcosm of S30-series Z authorship history going on there......... :classic: Alan T.