HS30-H

A few days ago I got back from a business trip to Japan. Whilst there I attended the 2005 NISMO FESTIVAL at the recently refurbished Fuji International Speedway, which took place on Sunday 4th December. I was lucky enough to be invited to be a member of the pit crew of 'NP35' - headed by my friend Matsui san, and we were looking after two customer cars. One was the Fairlady 240ZR replica of Mr Terashima, and the other was the KPGC10 Skyline GT-R of our friend Dr Shimizu - which was making its first ever runs after being completely rebuilt by Matsui san. This car had not turned a wheel under its own power in over 20 years..... Set-up and practice on Saturday afternoon enjoyed glorious late Autumn weather, but Saturday night was very windy and some exhibitor tents and shelters were blown away. Sunday dawned clear and crisp, but by lunchtime the clouds gathered and it started to snow! Being part of the 'show', we stayed until the bitter end ( and I'm very glad we did ). After packing the cars, spares and equipment back into the transporters we had quite an eventful drive home to say the least. Being part of the pit crew, I couldn't get out and about as much as I would have liked - but I did take quite a few pics from the pits which might be of interest. If Mike or Victor can create a section for them in the Gallery ( 2005 Events? ) then I will start some uploading. Cheers, Alan T.

Classy? Aw shucks . If you took the time to read back through the thread that you created, you might notice that you started it before I had received my pre-ordered copy. For me to start a parallel thread would seem to be fairly pointless considering you made such a good job on this one....... And ME "scared" to put out my own opinion on something? Ha ha ha ha! That'll be the day. I think this is a great thread ( you have created a beautiful monster ) so I don't know why you want it closed. I think we are all learning something here. We might even come to a collective agreement on some points ( shock, horror..... ). :classic: :classic: :classic:

Maybe Morton would have been more impressed had he not jumped into the dumbed-down and softened-up HLS30U? Where's that "An American Car, Made In Japan" quote now then? Its going to need to die of 'natural causes' rather than being shot for coming back to haunt its creator. Alan T.

Carl, Your lengthy post deserves ( needs ) some 'return of serve', and I'm afraid I am going to need to be Devil's Advocate in some respects: It cost me £24.95 ( that's approaching $50 US I think ) and I feel cheated. I pre-ordered it on the basis of its ambitious title, and would not have paid for it had I realised it was going to be such an intellectual and historical lightweight ( despite its physical size ). I'm sorry, but taking the title "Z - 35 Years Of Nissan's Sports Car" into consideration, I don't think I got anything like that......... Well, you can say that again. It is good that he 'downplayed' the role that Goertz played, but nobody ever goes far enough in my opinion. Goertz needs to be thoroughly discredited for his caddish, opportunist attitude and his active fostering of myth. If Goertz was an honest and truthful man, half of this nonsense would not be 'out there' in the first place. I didn't spot anything other than a brief mention of Matsuo's name, and his name does not figure in the single page ( ! ) 'Index' at the back of the book. Matsuo didn't 'design' the car on his own ( just like Goertz couldn't have, but nobody ever points out.... ) so where were the names of the likes of Yoshida, Chiba, Shitara, Uemura, Miyate, Benitani, Kamahara, Oiwa, Tamura et al? I don't understand why nobody ever seems to wonder who engineered the first-generation cars, rather than who is supposed to have simply styled them......... Sure they do. But the LATEST, most recent book to be published has the LEAST excuse for including so many glaring errors, and to be so blatant in simply COPYING the errors that were seen in its credited 'sources'. Colin Shipway's execrable spelling mistakes should NOT be copied verbatim in a book that gets published more than ten years later.......... Amen to that, but where you say "240-Z" I say "S30-series Z". Hold on. Brian Long's second book on the Z, 'Nissan 300ZX, 350Z - The Z-Car Story' is quoted in the 'Credits' ( Bibliography? ) section at the back of the Evanow book - NOT Brian's earlier book on the first-gen cars. If Evanow had paid attention to Brian's first Z tome, he wouldn't have had the embarrassment of simply copying Colin Shipway's mistakes. But for me ( and yes, this is my personal view ) I cannot understand why the same HUGE mistake is being made over and over again. What mistake is that? This one: The S30 / S31, S130, Z31, Z32 & Z33 series Z cars should be seen, discussed and critiqued as full families of Z cars, rather than '240Z', '260Z', '280Z ~ '350Z' etc etc. This - to me - is the single most fundamental mistake that can be made when thinking about 'our' cars ( and especially the particular series that this very web forum focuses on ). I can understand that a book will tend to focus on the cars known to its target audience - but to consciously avoid the brothers and sisters of a whole series of cars seems downright perverse to me. When the unmentioned siblings were such an important part of the story, and indeed their very existence implicitly affected so much of the story, it seems absolute madness to all-but-ignore them. To make such glaring and hopelessly inept mistakes about them when they are mentioned just cannot be excused. Sorry, but I think this book is a LONG way short of living up to its ambitious title. I regret having bought it. Maybe it should be subtitled ".........The American Viewpoint."? Alan T.

bpilati, Some of the misinformation in the book was pointed out by me in posts nos.65 & 71 on this thread. Others have pointed at mistakes and anomalies too. I could add plenty more, but I might get keel-hauled by the House Of Un-American Activities :tapemouth . I suggest you go back and read the whole thread from the beginning if you want to know where we are at......... Alan T.

OK. Have fun. Cheers, Alan T.

Carl, Whilst I have your attention, can I ask you to look at this thread: "Z - 35 years of Nissan's sports car" .....and possibly post your opinions on the criticisms that have been raised? Thanks, Alan T.

I see our fellow forum member Carl Beck's name mentioned many times in this book, and he also gets a name-check and a thank-you in the 'Acknowledgements' section at the back. I would really like to see Carl's comments on the points that have been raised in this thread. Over to you Carl?

Carl, I can't help thinking that you should be putting these questions to the vendor instead of me. I'm starting to feel like it is my information that is under scrutiny here, instead of the guy who has a piece of paper and a car that both have different VIN numbers on them. But anyway....... Its a well-known and well documented story..... Members of the general public ( rally spectators ) and members of the Old Woking Service Station and Withers Of Winsford service crew who were looking after the car on the event. I have cropped the photos to cut out some people and cars that were on the scene. On a Scottish hillside. The event was the 1972 Scottish Rally. I'm tempted to say "proceeding straight to the scene of the accident... .". But they were ( obviously ) competing on a special stage in the 1972 Scottish Rally. The number '13' figures large in this story...... The car was originally ( as we know ) one of a small batch built by Nissan in 1970 specifically to compete in the 1970 RAC Rally. It carried the Japanese temporary-export 'carnet' registration number 'TKS 33 SA 696'. This car had a relatively long and interesting career after the 1970 RAC, and competed in many events. After its temporary-export Japanese registration number ran out, import duty was paid on the car and it acquired a UK vehicle registration number and 'log book'. It passed out of 'Works' ownership and into the hands of Mr Cal Withers ( of 'Withers of Winsford' ) who entered it in several events with different drivers. During these events it wore two of Cal Withers' personal vehicle registration marks; first 'CAL 1' and then 'KEJ 1'. Obviously these numbers were being used whilst the original UK vehicle registration number assigned to the car ( 'PTD 524K' ) was being held legally on a 'retention' certificate. All quite above board. 'KEJ 1' ( actually 'HS30-00026' ) was entered in the 1972 Scottish Rally by Withers Of Winsford, to be driven by Roy Fidler and navigated by Barry Hughes. The story is that on stage 13 the throttle jammed, and they hit a rocky bank and rolled - with the car ending up on its roof. Members of the service crew worked hard on the car and managed to get it back on the road. Fidler and Hughes continued on the rally and managed to finish the event. As I mentioned, this is a well documented story. Alan T.

.........And this is what happened to the real 'HS30-00026'..........

Well, I wouldn't say it was "half there" quite yet. In fact, the vendor is simply quoting some of the things that were written in the Bonhams sale catalogue - so nothing new there - but still can't get the story straight. Some observations: The vendor is saying that "the chassis plate from 26 was then transferred" - but the plate on the car now ( as can be seen from the photo I posted earlier ) is categorically NOT the original VIN plate from HS30-00026! It is the original plate from the Fairlady Z shell that the car now uses, and was OVERSTAMPED with the number of HS30-00026. What's this nonsense about FIA scrutineers "......would not have been able to read" the Japanese characters on the original VIN plate? Note: FACT: The original VIN plate of 'HS30-00026' was an 'Export' type VIN plate, written in English. FACT: The original VIN plate of 'S30-02552' ( the Fairlady Z body that is being sold in the auction ) was a 'Domestic' type VIN plate, written in Japanese. THIS IS THE PLATE THAT IS STILL ON THE CAR - and has simply been overstamped........ The vendor is again telling a story that doesn't add up, and you don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to see what has been done here. The facts speak for themselves. The car being sold is actually fitted with a mixture of standard road car parts and ex-Works rally car parts, but many of the ex-Works rally car parts are of later vintage than the original 1970 RAC Rally spec. Many of the parts from the 1970 Fairlady Z 'donor' car were retained, such as the steel tailgate, all glass windows, standard dashboard, standard pedals and pedal box, for example. If the vendor had started out with a totally upfront and honest description of this car, many of these things would not be a 'problem'. It is a very interesting car, with some wonderfully rare and interesting parts attached to it, but it is categorically NOT HS30-00026.............

It gets worse. The vendor's response to the latest questions asked is revealing: Yes, he does have the old DVLA-issued V5 for 'PTD 524K' ( the UK vehicle-registration number that was allocated to chassis no. HS30-00026 after its Japanese temporary-export 'carnet' registration number ran out ) - but the big problem is that he does NOT have the correct car to go with it........ The car has been re-shelled into a 1970 Fairlady Z body. This re-shelling was performed by Bradburn Brothers Ltd before the present owner bought it. He may have been convinced that it was the genuine and uncorrupted article when he purchased it ( who knows? ) but it is NOT 'HS30-00026' any more, and should NOT be described as such. End of story. The FIA papers shown with the car at the Bonhams auction are not peculiar or specially-linked to this car in any way. They are simply copies of the FIA homologation no.3023 which are still available to buy from the FIA by anybody. I've been contacted directly by a couple of people asking me if this could possibly be the 'real' car........ Surely just checking out those pics of the firewall VIN number and re-stamped VIN tag should be enough to settle the issue?

Hi Carl, This subject is FAR too complicated to go into here, so you'll have to wait for the book......... But suffice to say that the 'Works' 240Z rally car shells were built in small batches, and included some pressings that were quite different to those of the standard road cars. Some of these pressings were thinner gauge than standard, and some were thicker. Some of them were peculiar to the Rally programme, but some of them originated from the 'PZR'. In fact, it is a valid comparison to liken the earliest Works rally shells to the PZR shells. After being built in these small batches, the shells had hundreds of additional modifications performed on them by hand. The components that were built into the car were also very special, and these too had thousands of man-hours of work in them. Unless you have seen one of these cars in pieces you just can't begin to comprehend quite how different they were to the 'standard' road cars. Bear in mind too that the Works cars are a 'moving target' for the historian. The cars in the small batches were all similar but had one or two differences, and cars in different batches could be quite different depending on the latest spec. updates and homologations, rule changes and event-dedicated preferences. A car built new 'for' the 1971 Monte Carlo Rally would be quite different to a car built new 'for' the 1972 Monte Carlo Rally - let alone the 1972 East African Safari Rally. Unfortunately, the vendor of the car in question seems to know little about these cars......... Alan T.

Oh dear, here we go again with this car........... What you are looking at is the remains of more than one Works-built 240Z rally car - all attached to a standard 1970 Fairlady Z bodyshell in the 1980s. Unfortunately, the vendor is misleading people with what he has written. From the eBay auction description: The car was hawked around for sale 'on the quiet' for many years here in the UK, and was finally entered as a lot in the Bonham's auction at the Goodwood Festival of Speed this year. It failed to reach its ( private ) 'reserve' price and went unsold ( although the vendor managed to sell another 240Z in the sale, which was originally a Samuri-modified UK-market road car with race history, but which had been modified to look like a genuine Works-built rally car - with many correct period Works parts ). The vendor does himself no favours by continually claiming that this is "Chassis 26" and "HS3000026" when it has been re-shelled and the original Works-built ( and very special ) bodyshell had been cut up and thrown away before he purchased the car. They didn't even bother trying to re-stamp the firewall VIN ( it still las the original Fairlady Z body number ) and the engine-bay VIN tag was simply overstamped with proprietary number and letter stamps - badly. I still can't understand why the vendor insists on calling it 'the real thing' when it quite patently isn't the car that some of its parts used to be attached to - if you see what I mean. Surely it would be much better for all concerned if this was honestly described as having been re-shelled? I took some photos of the car at the Bonham's auction, and have attached a couple here to illustrate the body number and VIN tag issue:

The publishers of the book ( MBI Publishing ) seem to encourage 'feedback' on their products. Here's a web page from their site where feedback can be left. MBI feedback page I'll be sending a letter to them at this address too: MBI Publishing HQ address Alan T.

Hi Nate, Check out post #54 on this thread: That's the core of the design team right there. Mr Yoshihiko Matsuo - Chief Designer & team leader. Mr Akio Yoshida - General Exterior & Interior Design. Mr Itsuki Chiba - Interior Design. Mr Hiroo Miyate - General Body Design. Mr Hitoshi Uemura - Mechanical Design ( esp. suspension ). Mr Tsuneo Benitani - Engineering. Mr Kiichi Nishikawa - Draftsman. Mr Hidemi Kamahara - Engineering. Mr Eiichi Oiwa - Designer. Plus a cast of hundreds........ Alan T.

Page 64 is titled "WHAT'S IN A NAME? PART 1", and is a discussion of the origins of the 'Datsun' name. Unfortunately, it is riddled with mistakes - most of them originating from its quoted source; the book entitled "Essential Datsun Z - 240Z to 280ZX", by Colin Shipway ( Published by Bay View Books in 1994. ISBN 1 870979 51 6 ). I want to point out some of the mistakes in order that they can be noted by us all here. Maybe it will help to guard against the mis-information being repeated, and gradually becoming *fact*. I'm going to send this information to the publisher too. Quote: "An American-educated engineer by the name of Sotaro Hashimoto founded a company called Kwaishinsha in 1912........." "Kwaishinsha" should be Kaishinsha. Quote: "....he named his first vehicle after them by using the first letter of their surnames - Kenjiro Den, Rokuro Aoyama, and Metaro Takeuchi." "Metaro" should be Meitaro. Quote: "....because in Japanese, DAT means "hare" and a hare is generally quick.................... it might be just a coincidence." There are not really any hares ( as we know them ) in Japan. The closest Japan comes to a hare is a type of wild rabbit called a 'No-Usagi' ( literally: 'Field rabbit' ) and the more likely transliteration of the Roman letters 'DAT' from 'English' into Japanese Kanji ideograms, and then back into English, would be pronounced 'Datto' ( literal meaning: 'as fast as one can', ). 'DAT' does not mean simply 'hare'........ It is much more complicated than that. Quote: ".....DATSON, now a part of the Tobato Imono Company........" "Tobato" should be Tobata. Quote: "....the holding company's name was Nihon Sagyo......" "Sagyo" should be Sangyo. I can't understand why the Colin Shipway book was used as a quoted reference. All of these mistakes are put right in Brian Long's book "Datsun Z - Fairlady to 280Z", ( published by Veloce in 1998. ISBN 1 901295 02 8 ) and the whole subject is covered more accurately. Why use the earlier book as quoted reference when the later book is better? Am I the only one who finds this strange? The Brian Long book is not even quoted in the list of sources on the 'Credits' page. Alan T.

Well, I've had a few more dips into the new book over cups of tea. I'm spotting more and more silly mistakes......... :disappoin 26th-Z, I think you have been very positive and very diplomatic in your posts on this thread - so I'm wondering how far to take this. I don't want to criticise the book and the author 'just for the sake of it', but if we spot glaring errors and bad information in the book isn't it better for our 'community' that these things are pointed out and discussed? Alan T.

Well, my copy of the book arrived today. It is bigger than I was expecting, but there's a lot less actual writing in the book than I was expecting..... And during a quick flick through, a major clanger just popped out at me - as it did for daddz: Page 123 shows two pictures of the same car, and the text discusses the Fairlady 432 and 432-R. But the car shown is clearly not a 432 or 432-R..... In fact, I believe its the 'LY' Crossflow-engined Fairlady Z owned by Akamatsu san of Japan - probably photographed on one of its trips to a National Convention meeting in the USA ( ? ), and clearly illustrating that it is a later build year than 1973 ( the last year for 432 / 432-R production ) by its rear light arrangement. Here's what the text on page 123 says: "Among the ingelligentZia ( sic ), an original Fairlady Z432 or 432-R from the Japanese market ranks among the most desirable classic Zs. Total production was 420, built from 1969-1973, with a 2.0-liter engine that produced 160 horsepower. The LY-designated engine was a high revving motor, with four valves per cylinder and three carburetors. The R model was for racing purposes, and was much lighter with a fiberglass hood, Plexiglass side and rear windows, lightweight bucket seats and other R-dedicated components. These cars are rare and desirable." Mr Evanow is getting the S20 mixed up with the 'LY'. The 432 and 432-R had the S20 24-valve DOHC, and the 'LY' was essentially a Crossflow conversion for the L24, with just 12 valves and SOHC. They are two completely different engines, and I'm very surprised that this ( and the photos ) slipped through the net. The red car in the photos does not illustrate a 432 or 432-R, and also has non-stock 'Datsun' emblems and rear marker lights. Did Mr Evanow see Akamatsu san's LY-powered Z at the National Convention and mistake it for a 432, or did the bad information come from elsewhere? This doesn't bode well........ Alan T.

! Thank heavens for that. You had me going for a minute there..........

Alfadog, Yes - to clarify: On most first-generation models, the stamp in the firewall sheetmetal was always above the Master Vac and clutch MC whether the car was LHD or RHD. So looking into the engine bay from the front of the car, the VIN stamp is to the left on an RHD car, and to the right on an LHD car. I've seen LHD-to-RHD conversions that left the VIN number in its original position, which can make some people do a double-take. 'Big Sam' is a good example of this. Stephen, you most certainly DO belong on this thread. I for one didn't know that the firewall stamp on the '280Z' model was on the left side of the firewall. I'll make a mental note to remember that. I learn something new about these cars every day......... Cheers, Alan T.

Hi Rick, Martin Buckley was wrong. So were the other authors. Its a big self-perpetuating myth started by Goertz himself, and it keeps going because none of these authors ever questions what they read in other books and magazine articles. It has become *history*....... Believe me I have tried this a few times over the years. I have spoken to various journalists from car magazines here in the UK, and its like knocking your head against a brick wall. They keep pointing back to older books and magazine articles, and saying ".......its in this book - so it must be true." Once these things are in print they might as well be set in stone. Very few publishers or authors seem to want to go back and revise what they have written for later editions of the same book, and 'corrections' in the June issue of a magazine that made mistakes in the May issue might as well be written in snow for all the good they do in the long term. I've had three of my Zs featured in magazine articles up to now, and when I was 'interviewed' for the articles I tried to get across the point that Goertz had nothing to do with the real process of the 'design' and engineering of these cars. In the May 1999 issue of 'PRACTICAL CLASSICS' magazine, the journalist ( Martin Buckley, funnily enough ) brought up the subject of the dispute about who really designed the Z. Matsuo's name is given as "Chief designer of the 240Z", but Buckley chose to give Goertz space for a personal quote. Here's the quote: "I may not be the best designer in the world, but I look back at my record and I'm satisfied. I did two classics, the 507 and the 240Z. Name me three other designers who can claim as much." So you see, the MAIN problem here is Goertz himself. He's a fraud, a liar and a scoundrel. Matsuo and his team haven't had a look in for several reasons - but two of the main factors have been language barriers and the fact that Matsuo quit Nissan on bad terms in 1973. Carl Beck has done some excellent research and writing on this subject for zhome.com, and when anyone looks at the facts ( clue: Goertz doesn't pay much heed to 'facts' ) it is quite clear what the true situation is. But still we are fighting the myth. Last 'interview' I did with a journalist on the subject of the Z was with Mick Walsh for 'Classic & Sportscar' magazine here in the UK. He took the point and didn't mention anything about Goertz in the article ( which was good ) but he still misquoted me about another matter. What are you gonna do? Journalists ( at least in my opinion ) have a duty to carry out proper research and get to the bottom of the story, rather than simply rehash the information already published in previous books and mags. The problem is that most of them don't when it comes to the S30-series Z, because the real *truth* is too much like hard work to dig up and look into. And its in Japanese........... Alan T.