HS30-H

Do what I do - don't tell her the whole truth ( and more specifically, the whole truth about where the money goes! ). Z Kid is right though. I think that's the best excuse. At least "her indoors" knows where I am and what I'm doing. She knew I had this car mania affliction when she took me on. Bless her heart.... Alan T.

continued: To those of us outside the USA who read that "American Sports / GT - Made in Japan" quote, it can indeed look somewhat arrogant. It fails to take into account the fact that Matsuo and his team were working under some constrictions, and implies that they had embarked on the design of a vehicle that was aimed specifically at the USA market AND NO OTHER. That last bit is important. Whatever you want to believe, its clear that just as much effort went into OTHER non USA-market specific variants / models and that a great deal of time was spent in making this more of a World Car ( rather than just a USA specific model ). Its also clear that Matsuo and his team were obliged to use certain components and layouts that in turn dictated other details and functions of the car ( unless you think that the L-series engine and its transmissions were also designed SPECIFICALLY for the USA market - which is patently not so ). They were also clearly just as influenced by the needs pertaining to an RHD layout as they were to an LHD layout ( and in some areas were forced to make 'design concesssions' because of this ). Here is quite clearly the design and development of a vehicle aimed at more than one market, and to take on several different forms. These facts seem to horrify you. Why is that? Pretty much all of us agree and cheer on a great number of your points Carl. They are usually very well laid out and eloquently expressed. It looks nice on the page - apart from your daffy comments about the anti-matter that is the RHD car, which I presume was only half serious, and recommend that you don't repeat too often as it will look ever more daft the more often it is repeated:classic: Its just the last bit of spin that you put on the ball that makes it a no-ball. I think you have to try to see the way the rest of the World sees the Z now, as well as taking into account the other iterations of the first-generation Z car ( remember - its the "S30-series" right? ) and the fact that just as much effort went into both LHD and RHD versions. I'm not really looking forward to your response, as it will doubtless run to several thousand words just like mine and will probably try to pick me up on every last point without ever giving an inch or making any concession. I'm sure that this game of squash would eventually run the thread into the ground and get nowhere into the bargain.:classic: Alan T.

Tee hee. This thread is still a smouldering ember it seems. Carl, I think you do seem to go much too far over the top in your defence. Some of the statements that you put forth, and attribute to the non-believers like me, go quite a lot beyond what people really think and believe. I think ( and I speak mainly for myself here of course ) that the main thing that you seem to be unwilling to acknowledge is that the S30-series Z was quite obviously designed to cater for both RHD and LHD versions. Now, notice that I wrote "S30-series Z" and NOT "240Z". I think when talking and writing about the first generation of Z cars - in all forms and variations - we ALL ought to follow the cues of the manufacturer, and say "S30-series Z". To say or write "240Z" when referring to a whole family of cars simply causes confusion, and is the root cause of a lot of misunderstandings about these cars. As for believing that the enormous success of the Z in the USA market was any kind of an accident or pure good fortune ( you quote "luck" ) , well - I don't think I've ever said that ( unless you have taken something out of context ) and of course it would be wrong to believe that. I don't think anybody disputes that Nissan hoped to sell a huge proportion of their product to the largest single export market in the World. I would think it was a relief rather than a "surprise" that the car did so well. You seem to forget that at no stage until the car actually started selling like hot cakes in the USA was this success ever a 'done deal' or a foregone conclusion.......... And who said a Japanese designer would not be capable of designing a product for any other market than Japan? You are just putting words into other peoples mouths. You might like to try and read between the lines a little too. In order to challenge your entrenched position that the USA-market specific HLS30 model was in some way the Big Mac of the Z range and that somehow all other models and variants are "niche market" models, it becomes necessary to throw a bit of rhetoric your way. You seem to over-react to this sometimes. For my own part, I would like to see you ( as something of an oracle when it comes to these cars - at least as far as the World Wide Web is concerned ) in some way acknowledge that the RHD and LHD versions were conceived, designed, developed and productionised at the same time. You will remember ( about 5 pages or so ago ) that this thread started with Kats posting some absolutely fascinating new information from Nissan Shatai and Matsuo san with regard to the 1969 production numbers. Your own first post in reply immediately jumped to the wrong conclusion with regard to my own posted reply to Kats. You seemed to pounce immediately on the perceived threat of somebody claiming that an HS30 model might have been produced in 1969 ( which is something that we can argue about as much as we like and get nowhere, and until we get better info is just conjecture anyway ). For me it was significant that indisputable proof had been produced that RHD models were produced at the same time as LHD models. I think you immediately overlooked this, and jumped on my imaginary claim - did you not? That's how it looked to me and a few other people, anyway. To me that kind of summed up your approach. You have now started getting your critical teeth into the books ( which you say were written by "English authors" - but I would possibly advise you to say 'British' ) who promoted the idea that Goertz "created" the S30-series Z car. In answer to this I say two things. First of all, the greatest blame for this has to go to Goertz himself for shameless self-promotion and the spread of doubt, lies and myths that were never properly quashed as they should have been by Nissan USA. I think you and I both agree that Goertz is the cowboy with the black hat in this particular western. Secondly, I think its possibly a little rich of you to accuse these authors of a 'lack of research' on their subjects. In many cases they were repeating information that they had taken in good faith with regard to what you call "The Goertz Myth" from figures who really should have known better. In fact, USA-based authors were never immune to this failing either. Your friend Ben Millspaugh dedicated sections of his book "Z Car - A Legend In Its Own Time" to several people who have been, and still are, die-hard Goertz fans; namely, Lynne Godber, Mike Feeney, Steve Burns and Jon Newlyn. Don't you think that, in the light of your comments, its somewhat ironic that Ben Millspaugh gave such a lot of space in his book to these British people? I am a member of The Classic Z Register here in the UK - a club dedicated to the first generation of Z cars, which was formed as a breakaway group from the Z Club of GB precisely because some members felt that the early ( pre S130 ) cars deserved their own club. The Chairman ( now honorary president ) is Lynne Godber, and the current Chairman is Mr Jon Newlyn. Both of these people are STILL Goertz-promoters, and indeed Goertz is listed as an "Honourary Member" of the Register. I have protested about this many times, but my protests fall on stony ground. Once set in stone, these legends are difficult to dispel aren't they? Anyway, with regard to mistakes and poor research - nobody is immune. The Millspaugh book has its own fair share of mistakes, as does your recommended-reading for today - "Fairlady Z Story" by Katayama and Matsuo.................. This book, published by MIKI PRESS of Japan ( ISBN4 - 89522-244-6 in case anyone wants to order one ) is in Japanese. It contains some selected headings and picture captions in English, and some editions carried a partial translation into English that was in the form of a flyer insert. I think your edition possibly carried one of the English translation flyers by my friend Mr Brian Long ( one of those English authors that you don't seem to rate very highly ) and his wife Miho. Am I correct? Or possibly you have had your own translation performed on it? Anyway, the first thing I would like to point out is the title of the book. It is called "FAIRLADY Z STORY" and subtitled "Datsun SP / SR & Z". Notice that it is not titled "240Z Story" or "HLS30 Story".......... Then go on to the Contents page, and notice the translated heading of Chapter 1; "Birth of Datsun 240Z" by Yutaka Katayama. This is significant. Then look down to the Japanese heading of Chapter 3 and its English translation below; "How I developed Datsun 240Z styling" by Yoshihiko Matsuo. This too is significant. Why is it significant? Look at the Japanese title of Chapter 3 ( and I Romanise this Japanese heading ): "Shodai Z design kaihatsu shuki" - or "Original Z design essay" ( my translation ). Notice how the Japanese title of Matsuo's chapter does not specifically mention the "Datsun 240Z" in the Japanese version - but that Miki Press have decided to translate this into English as "How I developed Datsun 240Z styling" - which is not a literal translation at all. I think you can see what I am driving at - and this is something that is clear whenever Matsuo is interviewed in Japanese with regard to the Z - namely that Matsuo usually refers to the S30-series Z as a whole range when discussing its design. Contrast this with Katayama - who usually does exactly as you do - referring to the "Datsun 240Z" specifically. I think there is a big difference in approach between the two of them, and I can see why each takes the approach that he does. I see this as Katayama's Americanised approach and Matsuo's Japanese approach. More specifically though, I'd like you to take a little pinch of salt when it comes to reading the English translations for the headings and picture captions in this book. I can assure you that they are not all literal translations from Japanese into English ( if such a thing is even possible ). Note too that there are a great many mistakes in the picture captions in both Japanese and English. This is a most regrettable thing in such an otherwise excellent book. We should probably remember that Matsuo and Katayama's contributions were certainly edited and subbed by the staff of Miki Press, and that they certainly did not caption the pictures themselves. The idea of the English captions is certainly meant to appeal to foreign markets for the book ( a translated version of which was apparently at least mooted by Miki Press ) and guess where the biggest market for an English-language book on the Z car would be? Katayama and Matsuo's views are still slightly different ( understandably ) and its plain that Matsuo still defers to the feelings of his former superior out of respect and politeness as much as anything else. I quite agree with your last statement and its three points though. How on earth can you accuse anybody here ( I presume you mean me? ) of holding a position that negates all of those three points? Not true at all. I have nothing but respect and admiration for these people. continued next post:

Hi Carl, Naturally, collectors and enthusiasts of 'period' parts will put a premium on the items that are perceived as the most desireable, and it is usually the market that sets the level for this. You and I both know that. I'm part of that world just as much as you yourself are. I sometimes find myself paying a higher price than I would like for those 'must have' items, and I certainly would not wish to sell anything that is rare or difficult to replace unless I could either trade it for something else I need or get a good price to enable me to buy something else I need or want badly enough. In the case of Minilite wheels, it will be the most 'correct' and period-appropriate pertaining to the car in question that will be most in demand. A period-accessorised Escort Mexico, or indeed a 'Works' Type-49 shelled Escort Twin Cam would normally be seen as somewhat incomplete without a set or two of the 'correct' Mag Minilites. Therefore that kind of wheel ( in the correct size and condition ) can fetch a premium here in the UK. However demand outstrips supply, and serious sporting use of old Magnesium wheels can be dangerous. Therefore a set of the more recently-manufactured versions in either Mag or Aluminium are usually seen as perfectly OK, as long as they 'look' right. Of course, the older wheels are coveted by the serious collectors - but they are rarely used in anger. In many cases the new wheels are just as costly as the 'originals'. Whether new or 'original', one thing is for sure; they are not much use to anybody sitting in a box at the back of the garage.:classic: In answer to your questions, we come to the same impasse again; namely, what do you want to call the 'original production facility'? As I have stated, the original company ( founded by Mr Derek Woodton ) was called Tech Del. Ltd. - and their first wheels were the classic eight-spoke design called the "Minilite" which was made of Magnesium. Within a few years, an Aluminium version was also offered. So, the 'original' manufacturer did indeed offer both Mag and Ally versions of the Minilite wheel. When you talk of a 'buyout' its hard to know what or when you mean. As previously mentioned, Tech Del. Ltd. went through many phases of making money and losing money, and restructured at least once before the 1960's had finished. What is for sure ( and this is the point that I think you want answered ) is that they offered both Mag and Aluminium versions of the same wheel at least by the early 1970's. The Aluminium version is not a recent addition to the range............ They are a small and quite friendly company ( unless you were to accuse them of being impostors! ) and are quite approachable. If you want the real nitty-gritty I suggest you call them and ask them in person. The contact details are in my previous post. Alan T

Carl, If you want to argue it through to the enth degree, then you have to decide just where "Minilite" went out of business the FIRST time...... Like many British companies involved in the motorsports world in the 1960's and 1970's, they suffered from can't pay and won't pay clients - which sometimes led to the company needing to re-register or restructure in order to protect themselves. Some of these clients disappeared and some of them did quite well for themselves in the end ( take for example Mr Frank Williams - a well-known wheeler-dealer in the 1960's and 1970's - who just had a couple of cars with his name on them finish in first and second places in the French Formula 1 GP ). The "original" Minilite wheels ( 'Minilite' is a registered trademark ) were, as I said, manufactured by a company called "Tech Del. Ltd". The owner of this company - which was for many years based in Acton, west London - was Mr Derek Woodton, who was quite a well-known face in the UK motorsport world. Mr Woodton's company was restructured and re-formed more than once in the Sixties - let alone in the Seventies - so if you want to talk about the 'original' company you are really only referring to a paper identity registered with Companies House here in the UK. As I said before, the manufacturer of the original Minilite wheel was Tech Del. Ltd. - and that is the name of the company that still makes them. They have all the original drawings, blueprints, rights and history of the Minilite range of wheels, and they have the blessing of Mr Derek Woodton. They have a direct descendancy from the 'original' company ( regardless of how many times that company have had to restructure or re-register ) and therefore they are the closest thing possible to being the manufacturers of the original Minilite wheel. It seems silly to argue the toss as to whether this is the 'original' company or not. This is not a situation where a new company has sprung up to make use of a dormant brand name or revive a long-dead design. This company is part of the Minilite family tree. Alan T.

Hi 240znz, Sorry - I'll sort out my PM box ( didn't realise it was full ). I think the seller has mis-described the number and that you are correct; it will almost certainly be "HS30-00352". I think you will find that its true date of manufacture was very early in 1970 rather than late 1969. RHD cars were indeed made in 1969, but an HS30 in the mid three-hundreds is going to be a 1970 for sure. Hope it turns out to be good enough to buy. Let us know how you get on.............. Good luck! Alan T

The original MINILITE wheel was made by a company called "TECH-DEL LTD." just down the road from me here in west London. They still exist, but they have moved further west to Taunton in the county of Somerset. Minilite UK website Alan T.

Sven, I suggest that you, Philip and mull get together and get your own back on That Ozzy Guy..................:devious: Alan T.

Hi to Sven ( mull ) and welcome, We don't have all that many cars over here in the UK, but we have quite a lot of useful parts that are left over from dead cars ( ! ). That may be useful for you in the future. Actually there ARE some good cars over here, but you do not see them advertised for sale very often. Many of them change ownership without even being advertised. And of course, many of our cars here are RHD. That may be something that would be inconvenient for you in a country full of LHD cars. One thing to bear in mind is that 5-speed transmissions and 3.9 ratio diffs are still very plentiful over here - so if you do get an American car that has not been converted, you know where to look. I'll e-mail you with some information on cars for sale here, just out of interest. Maybe importing a car already in the EC would save you quite a lot of money? Anyway, welcome and good luck. Alan T.

Hi Z Kid, I think the Navigator is probably not waving, but holding on for dear life. I don't know about this particular car, but some of the Works cars had a grab strap on the roof panel edge above the door. It was usually fitted according to the Navigator's personal preference. Don't forget that the Navigator had a really important job to do in calling the pace notes / maps for the driver. I should imagine Billstam is steadying himself with one hand and holding his notes with the other. Looks like the car is set up in a pretty fast drift down a ( Welsh? ) forest stage, which must be pretty frightening! Hi Guus, Old Woking Service Station no longer exists as an actual company, I believe. I drove through Old Woking a few years ago ( its just a short drive away from the old McLaren International HQ in Woking ) and could not find the original buildings. They might be still there, but I did not see any old signs or other evidence of the original garage and workshop. However - as I say - the family still live relatively locally I believe, and Gary Hicks still owns the car. The story behind the different spec. of the front quarters and indicators is that they would not pass the UK's Ministry of Transport regulations for lighting ( the indicator postion was too low for UK law ). This apparently caused a hold-up on imports while a redesign was carried out at the Factory for parts to attach to UK-market cars. As far as I know, this DID indeed only apply to the UK-market cars, and was specifically caused by the need to comply with the UK laws. All the best, Alan T.

Hi Guus, Nice photo! Did you know that particular Works car ( originally Japanese-registered as "TKS 33 SU 4079" ) still exists? Its here in Southern England, and it belongs to a family member of the "Old Woking Service Station". On the '73 RAC it was fitted with the LY "Crossflow" engine and Nissan ECGI fuel injection system, giving roughly 255 BHP. Old Woking Service Station ( the base for the Works team while they were in the UK ) acquired the car from Nissan after the RAC rally, and it was re-registered in the UK as "LPE 66P". It went on to do many other UK national events, and took part in the 1975 RAC rally too ( driven by Kevin Videan ). Your photo shows an interesting detail of this car, in that before the '73 RAC it was fitted with the UK-type of lower front quarters, with their lack of cut-outs for the indicator lamps. As can be seen, the UK-type of front indicators ( usually mounted on the top of the front bumper ) were attached to the 'Drop' bumper uprights. The car is still fitted with its LY engine, but the Injection was replaced long ago by a set of Mikuni carburettors. Alan T.

I think they look great until you see human beings sitting in them. Soon as a normal sized person sits in one it starts to look a little claustrophobic in there. Are the seats too far away from the floor or something ( or are all the drivers I see in them just sitting on their inflated egos? ). Give me the Coupe over the Roadster any day, though. The Coupe is also about twice as stiff torsionally and has consequently far superior handling. I love 'em, but if I was lucky enough to have one I think I'd want to look like I was sitting in it rather than on it. Alan T.

Hi Zedrally, The early Sports Option roll over bars and the Works-modified versions of them were initially only a 'hoop' type. They mounted at the location shown above, and also had two 'drop' bars that came down from the hoop to the rear floor at a slight angle ( backwards ) - making them in essence a 'four-point' cage. These located into special brackets that were bolted into captives that had to be brazed into the floor. Yes - you could call this a 'half cage' and it really isn't very safe by modern standards. Proper cages that had bars over the doors dropping down to the floor just before the dash ( with a little kink to follow the dash ) - making them six-point cages - did not come until '73 on the Works circuit race cars, and even later than that on the FIA Rally cars. Alan T.

Hi Kmack, I have been looking around for a long time for either a genuine Sports Option roll-over bar, or an accurate replica of one. Any genuine ones that I saw in Japan were MEGA expensive ( they are really very sought-after ) and the replicas were nothing like as good as the originals. Therefore I have been collecting data to make my own, and have been able to use a genuine Sports Option bar and mount kit as reference. The finished item will go in my 432R replica project car. If you want me to e-mail you more detailed pics and specs for the genuine item, then drop me a PM with the mail address which you would like me to send it to ( there are quite a few pics ). It might be useful reference for you if you want to make your won version. Best regards, Alan T.