HS30-H

Mike, Whilst I appreciate your effort to create your new 'JDM' section, I reckon you're about 20 years too late. classiczcars.com had been discussing these cars as part of the S30-Series pretty much since you founded the forum, and the content is (I think pretty much inextricably) woven into the tapestry of our historical forum thread content. I can't see how that Japanese market-specific content can be isolated, extracted and given a new home without losing its original context? And what will happen to the conversations from which is has been extracted? Will they too lose their context? I'm not sure I understand. For example, Kats' thread: ...has been running since 2007, is ever-popular, always interesting and - I think I'm correct - one of the most popular threads on this forum in terms of hits, comments and member participation. This thread alone has brought much to the conversation here and has informed and educated in the process. That education works both ways, as I believe much has been learned about both the 'Datsun 240Z' and the 'Fairlady Z432' models and other variants. But how do you distill the 'JDM' content from that?

Great 'survivor' car there, but let's clarify (see what I did there?) the term "clear glass". I think you're referring to a tailgate glass without the demister elements, right? No HRW. Distinction important I think, because many Nissan products of this vintage had a 'Standard' or base specification which included truly 'clear', untinted glass.

Not forgetting that the S30-S 'Z-Std'/Standard model for the Japanese market got the non-defrost rear glass from '69 (HRW an extra cost showroom option on that model) whilst the 'Deluxe' models - PS30 Fairlady Z432 and S30 Fairlady Z-L - got it as standard equipment. I've got a vertical-element heated rear window in the back of the garages somewhere. Standard equipment on UK market cars (guess why). You're welcome to have it. Probably got the switch and harness sections too. You might need it soon. New ice age on the way, apparently...

Yes. As per the title you gave the thread: "Meanwhile, a Z432R sells for $805k in Japan" There's a big, big difference in content, rarity and value between a 432 and a 432-R, so I think it worth making it clear all the way through when writing about them, lest people get the wrong end of the stick. I've already seen it happening. Edited to add: There was no model variant-specific 432-R badging. It was badged the same as the 432 model.

I disagree. First of all, the choice of the word 'Series' clashes with Nissan's own methodology, but secondly these vernacular 'Series' numbers are not accurate descriptors for individual car content. And that's what they are tending to be used for. Example: @26th-Z Chris' HLS30-00026 will be described as a 'Series 1', so what will have been the content of the car when it rolled off the production line in 1969? Would it have had carpets? Would it have had a heated rear window? Would it have had a splash pan? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the answers to those three questions for that particular car would be no, no and no. So are these three details 'Series 1' characteristics? I don't believe they are. And that's without going into the (stop me if you've heard this one before...) 'Made For USA' type mindsets - as seen on the comments for this 310kUSD BaT car - which seem oblivious to the fact that there were other variants, with different content, on the drawing board and on the production line at the same time... I can see why the terms came about - as a necessity to pigeonhole after the fact - but the word 'Series' was a bad choice. Production date, market variant and chassis prefix + body serial number combo are still the best way to define an individual car.

E8100 late 'Europe' type.

Specifically, a PS30-SB Nissan Fairlady Z432-R I've seen some people being confused between the 432 and 432-R. It's worth being vigilant about the distinction.

What's not true? All the factory documentation says that S30 is the Series. Export chassis tags say "Max HP at X RPM". Hardly a lie, is it? If you're looking for stretched truth try the people who misinterpret the figures.

"72 Model" a term used in the Portuguese market? That's not how they were sold there.

But it clashes with the fact that Nissan used the word SERIES to denote specific groups of sub variants, hence 510-series, C10-series, B110-series etc etc, as portrayed by my factory service manual lineup photo up-thread. The whole point of Nissan using the term S30-series at launch was that they considered each of the variants at launch (and therefore through concept, design, engineering and production) to be part of a series. Hence 'base model' is S30, joined by S30-S, PS30, PS30-SB, HLS30, HLS30U/N/V, HS30U etc. Look through any of Nissan's Series line-ups and you will see the same pattern of use.

If only Nissan had given us some clues as to how they used the word 'Series'. Oh...

And I'm trying to get across the point that factory rated outputs are for *bare* engines. A smog pump-equipped, retarded timing anti-emissions L24 simply cannot have the same real world output as an L24 that is not similarly encumbered, even if they *do* have the same output written on their engine bay tags. And gear ratios and diff ratios very much DO have an effect on The Package. The above - different - L24s will perform quite differently in character when they are part of a car, and especially so when one is attached to a wide ratio 4-speed and 3.3 diff, and the other is attached to a close ratio 5-speed Overdrive and 3.9 diff. 432 and 432R were equipped with that close ratio 5-speed and a 4.44 diff with LSD. Again, a package that was well balanced and aimed at the sporting driver.

THIS! Market, variant and production date will usually get us where we need to be.

Katayama gets credited with things he was not responsible for, I point that out, and you class it as "Mr K. bashing". If you're so protective of Katayama san's legacy, how come I never see you piping up when people call him "the designer of the 240Z"? I've said it many times before and I'll say it again: Katayama was a great man - worthy of his 'Motoring Hall Of Fame' place - but to focus almost solely on Katayama is to cast a huge shadow over a cast of many other very capable and worthy players.

Which "the" Skyline? I own a KPGC10 race car and I can tell you that its bodyshell is no stiffer than any S30-series Z bodyshell.

By the end of 1970, works-affiliated privateers with 432-Rs found themselves racing in re-jigged race classes that allowed engine capacities up to 3 litres. They promptly installed TOMEI-tuned pushrod H30 stock car engines in their 432-R bodies:

I think a 'fully loaded' '69/'70 HLS30U would struggle to make that weight in real life. I think the car used for the FIA 3023 homologation had - shall we say - a little bit of a diet before being tested... There's some talk that the FIA 3023 homologation sample car actually had a PZR body. JAF homologation of the 432-R was 960kg 'wet', so that's with 100 litre tank full. It seems to indicate the FIA 3023 car was, er, 'special'...

I think we are both reading from the same page here. The wider point is that the power values stated on the chassis tag - and in the literature, and quoted back to me by SpeedRoo in comparison with the S20 - are quantified before the other devices are bolted on, so not all L24-engined models were created equal. Edit: And I LIKE it when Canada sticks up for Canada. The "Made For USA" thing bugs me vicariously for Canada as much as anywhere else. The Kaku U team WENT TO Canada for heaven's sake!

Typo?

No smog pump/anti-emissions devices on non-North American market 240Zs, and also different distributor. I say less power on HLS30U/UN/UV. It's impossible for them all to be the single, same, factory quoted output in the field. The engines were tested 'bare', with no load. No pumps.

You're Mr "432 is nothing special" around these parts. Add it to your sig so you don't forget.

Watching the auction count down 'live' in the pub with you was a slightly surreal experience, Kats. I think we were both giggling as the numbers went up and up, right? Crazy stuff.

Two points: Firstly, Genichiro Tahara's activities were backed by Nissan and his car was a little 'warmed over'. It was essentially a factory-backed effort in disguise. If you want to go deeper into Nissan's plans and activities for racing and rallying in Japan you might want to prepare yourself for some deeper depths than you have previously dived to. Its a little bit more complex a subject than you may realise. Secondly, why do you make the distinction of "...Nissan USA with Mr K..."? This is just another example of Katayama Lore overshadowing the conversation. Nissan was Nissan. Katayama was working for Nissan, not 'Katayama USA Inc.' So NISSAN were supporting motor sports activities in the USA (and elsewhere) and you citing Katayama is just a consequence of that whole "they wanted me to fail", "I was banished" narrative which is all a bit too poor me, poor me, pour me a drink for my taste, and doesn't stand up to much scrutiny. Nissan was just as interested in motorsports activities in Japan as anywhere else, and their eyes were always on their commercial competitors in Japan. In the early 1960s that meant Toyota. Once they got into it, it became an arms race which Nissan won. But before factory team and privateer racing could take off in Japan, Japan needed to get to a tipping point; courses to race on, cars suitable to race with, people willing to spend money to watch or partake, and a useful spin-off for promotion and sales. More than that, a point where Japan could feed itself and make sure it had clean running water and a roof over its head. Japan had - make no mistake - been totally DEVASTATED by war. It therefore took longer for Japan to rebuild itself to the stage where it could feasibly engage in such fripperies as motorsports. The USA, by contrast, was enjoying a booming economy and American society had never had it so good. So pointing at your 'Mr K' as the man who was making it happen is a little fresh...

You just moved the goal posts. We were naturally restricting our comparisons to what was available on the showroom floor (hence the HP vs PS comparo) and how do you compare individual race-prepped engines without knowing to what level, what purpose, they have been prepared? Casino. Finally, how are you going to get a 2.4+litre car into a race class that is limited to 2.0 litres?

Why would you assume that development of the factory 'safety bar' kit was specific to USA safety requirements? Nissan had committed - 'early in the Z programme' - to using the S30-series Z in its own racing and rallying activities, and made sure that this was taken into account in the design & engineering of the cars. FIA and JAF homologation was very important and required an integrated effort in order to get the application in early enough for it to be legal for the start of the 1970 season. Clue: Monte Carlo. It's not in the USA: