HS30-H

I believe it is at the Pierre, Kats. You noted the difference in the flooring (Beverley Hilton Hotel carpet is quite distinctive in your colour photo) but something does not look 'right' in the B/W photos to me. I feel like they have been airbrushed/re-touched. I think editors would prefer a plain backdrop. The version in the Nissan 10-year report book looks especially as though it was edited to me. Floor area under the car and around the lady on the left looks especially suspicious to me, whilst I see more floor detail - and even some flash bounce? - on the short hair-edited version. I get the feeling that the Pierre Hotel event was not ideal for press photography...

What did you think about the carpet discussion? One of the latest came-out-of-nowhere bulk dealers states that he has seen no variation on '69 through '73(?) carpets (says they were all the same), which I find pretty remarkable seeing as the very first type of carpeting in North American market cars was manufactured by a third party in the USA until the factory started fitting them a little later on. Identical? One of his customers is backing him up, of course. It's like a Punch and Judy show.

Kats, You will see two different versions of the 240Z USA debut 'unveiling' photo. The version in the Nissan 10-year report volumes is different than another version, as one has been 'edited' and the other has not. I have seen Nissan using both versions. They are clearly both exactly the same photo, but in the edited version the lady on the right has had her long hair airbrushed out to make it look shorter. My wife (and I believe her...) says that she thinks the 'long hair' version looks "wrong" for a classic Kimono-wearer in 1969. The lady on the left looks far more correct, with her hair up.

What a great shot. I've never forgotten the first time I walked through a full size bamboo grove in Japan. That noise in the wind. Extraordinary! I like your 'Kari' plate too.

If you're a connoisseur of factory-style 'Overfenders' mounted on the wrong side of the car and - in any case - far too low, you'll love this.

Here's a gathering of 1960s/70s American sports cars: I think there's a Corvette behind one of those pillars...

I have one of the 'Radio Delete' trays too, and have sometimes heard them called a 'Sunglasses Tray' in Japan. It seems to work as well for that purpose as any other:

I think it is natural for people to have a bias toward their local market variants, and in pre-internet days not so many people got to see other market variants - so they didn't even consider them. What I do not understand are people who tell us not to look, or that a particular market/model is not worthy of attention. It is bizarre. Every variant has its own significance and the more contemporary variants you look at, the more you learn about them and your own market variant. There is always something to be learned. I own variants from three different markets; Japan, UK and North American, and two different models from one of those markets (Japan). Each one informs not just about itself, but also teaches us something about the others. I find it fascinating to compare them, and I'm still learning something new every time. I contend that you cannot understand each model/variant fully without looking at its production line and showroom siblings. It's a pipe dream, but I'd like to have an S30-series Z event where we managed to corral at least one of every variant/sub-variant and market model, and every different production spec and showed them all together in one space with full access. No velvet ropes around the cars and no cars locked. I think it would be both interesting and informative. Just a pipe dream though...

Hi Kats, Nice set! They look to be in good condition. I believe they are the 'old' type 44PHH-2, as fitted also to the U20-engined SRs. Nissan Sports supplied them in sets of three as a Sports/Race Option for the S20 engine, and Nissan's Works team used them on the first versions of their LR24 race engines (as tested by Kobayashi san for Car Graphic back in 1970). Did the previous owner put some reproduction A15 type stickers on them? Terashima san has a set on his PZR:

Do you want me to cut-and-paste my reply from the other parallel thread you started? All of this is doing nothing good for the filing in the forum archives.

Yes. No. No. It didn't. It shared it's 'PS30' chassis number prefix and body serial number combo with the 'ordinary' PS30. You're confusing prefixes with suffixes. 'Ordinary' Nissan Fairlady Z432 was factory build code 'PS30-D', and Nissan Fairlady Z432-R was 'PS30-SB'. Nissan's Works race & rally department(s) gave their charges their own designations as they saw fit, for their own purposes. They also gave each car it's own company internal identification (called a Maintenance Number) which is, as civilians, technically none of our business. Yes you are. You're taking all this 'VZ' hoo-ha too seriously. It's a story that's a bit frilly around the edges. That '240ZR' name is nickname given to a customised [is it/isn't it 'VZ'] car by the people involved with customising it, that's all. A bit of unofficial Droit de seigneur... Do you think Yutaka Katayama's yellow HLS30U with all its customising (Grande nose, basket wires, fancy paint etc) was any kind of 'factory special'? Of course it wasn't. It was just a car modified to the tastes of an individual long after leaving the production line. If you think that factory designations can be changed on a whim then you're falling into a whole new world of philosophical hurt. The safest and surest way to deal with official factory designations for the S30-series Z is to stick to the rule that the factory-applied designations cannot be changed after the fact, and that upgrade/downgrade/sideways shuffle of variants is technically impossible. People making up new model names, or re-using old ones unwisely and applying them to custom cars in the former colonies is nothing to be taken too seriously. ^Case in point. Yeah, "rarest" LOL. "Kept it under wraps" ha ha. "Off the records", what records? Oh, of course! Penny just dropped! You're prepping the pitch for your own custom car's upgrade from Coach to Business, aren't you? Good luck with that.

This is what a real '240ZR' looks like: (it's the one on the right...)

How is it "the rarest one"? It's an individual car - like they all are, given that they each have unique chassis prefix and body serial number - and the only difference is that it got a few additions and an extra nickname a good 20+ years after it left the production line. Since that nickname was not anything to do with the manufacturer and it was not an official series variant, it's hard to take it seriously as anything over and above any other car. '240ZR' was an internal Nissan race department soubriquet for a factory Works-prepped S30-series Z race car with an L24-based engine. What's the betting that the Z Store people didn't think about the name clash, or simply didn't know?

Kats, As you know, I am all in favour of your LHD S20-engined plan. I'm cheering you on! However, I can't say that I have taken on any of my own project cars and thought about future value. How much would my 432-R 'replica' project car be worth if I had to sell it? Maybe not even as much as the component parts would sell for. And my white 240ZG that I'm now putting together would probably be worth more as a totally stock 240ZG, but I don't want to do that... I hink you should do what you want to and take a few people with you on your journey. Any car will find a buyer in the end, and who would not want to buy an ex-Kats car? I don't think this BaT bubble is going to last all that long. It's a really strange format for me. Bidding on a car you cannot personally inspect in the metal before buying is never ideal, and it seems to me that a relatively small group of people are commenting on the auctions - some of them 'bidding' - and the BaT site owners are moderating comments before they are posted. One or two characters seem to be allowed to say almost anything they like whilst controlling the narrative. There's a potential for all sorts of shenanigans. Your 'S20-powered VZ' project might change a few minds. According to our new BaT friend 'Lstepp4re' apparently "....Here in the US we didn’t know of or care about JDM.. we knew about Datsun 240Zs that most of us couldn’t afford or acquire ..and as such ..99% of the people on this site ..just don’t care about the JDM market...". He reminds me of somebody. My personal favourite 'VZ' car? This one:

Chris, I absolutely concur that the wider 'Z Store' project was unique, and that in turn the 'VZ Program' part of it was unique in its wider scope of volume buy-in (the "scale" that you mention) and commissioned restoration for resale. I don't need to concede that because it's a given. What I don't agree with is the ill-informed hyperbole from certain individuals who really ought to know better, and I find that a more measured appraisal - like yours - is better for the marque in the long run. As you point out, and others do not want to believe, in the past other motor manufacturers have restored their own used cars for resale and some continue to do so. That aspect is not "unique". For me, a lot of this goes back to those days when people were talking about "Factory restoration" and leading people to believe this project was something other than what it really was. A lot of people didn't like the clarification being made, but when automotive journalists - who should know better - were themselves believing that the cars had been sent back to Japan and, in turn, misleading their readers, I believe the term "Factory restoration" was an inappropriate term for us to throw around. Is it my imagination or are we doing a better job of describing these cars than we used to? I have to say that your work on rounding up the facts and putting the whole thing into some semblance of order for us has been a great benefit to the legacy of the 'VZ' project, and will have certainly helped this latest BaT sale even if the cast in the sitcom didn't know it. Your data and explanation of the whole story was certainly a great benefit to one Japanese owner whom I passed it on to, and he was very grateful. Good work. Thank you.

Not true. You can split the hairs any way you want about Aston Martin's activities but the fact is that they were selling bought-in (often through trade-ins) factory-refurbed cars long before 2014 and I cited this activity in relation to the "unique" VZ claim on this very forum more than ten years ago. I believe I gave a specific example of one such car too (I even took a test ride in one which a work colleague was considering for purchase). Is this the kind of "drivel" you are referring to? I note you don't have anything to say about Bristol Cars or the other examples I cited. Maybe you're more motivated to prove me wrong than in proving that the 'VZ' program was "unique in automotive history"...? A new member with no feedback, using a pseudonym, sends me a PM asking for a list of 432-R chassis numbers. My spidey senses tingle and I do not reply, considering it better to wait and see. Lo and behold another PM with a snotty retort to the effect that he'd got what he wanted elsewhere and thanks for nothing. Turns out you were planning a 432-R 'replica', right? I'm sure a list of original 432-R chassis numbers would be very useful for that. What could possibly go wrong? I think I was right to be dubious. Dubious is a good default position.

The last five or six years? So when I was posting about Aston Martin Works Service's past and continuing activities on this forum - with relation to the claim of the 'VZ' program being "unique" - more than ten years ago, I was predicting the future? I'll add that to my CV. No, I was stating a fact. The "alternate reality" is the one where the 'VZ' program is "unique in automotive history". Pure fantasy or just more USA-bubble type introspection, you choose. It's the same as the 'conversation' on BaT where nobody is allowed to mention the 432 or 432-R, but mention of the Toyota 2000GT, Honda NSX and even Mazda Miata is just fine and dandy. Deluded. Aston Martin Works Service - just the same as any other UK-based business - do not need any 'license' to sell cars. Especially what are - essentially, just like the 'VZ' program cars - refurbished used cars with their original identities intact. Some people here will no doubt believe you, but it simply isn't true. What 'license', and issued by whom? Nonsense. Noted that we appear to be on first name terms now. Presumptuous of you. Apparently you still call yourself 'Roo', as you did when you asked me to give you data on the 432R. If you had introduced yourself with a feasible and believable name I might have considered it. I think my spidey senses were right.

:Mic Drop:

I'm not talking about the 'Sanction 2' cars. Not the same thing at all. I'm talking about the active buying-in, in-house restoring, then selling-on as 'Factory Refurbished' cars (with a one year warranty) which Aston Martin Works Service were carrying out since at least the late 1970s, if not earlier. It was done because there was a demand for it, and the will to do it. Five or six years? I've brought up the point here on this forum several times in the past, and have brought up the Aston Martin Works Service example (amongst others) in relation to the 'VZ' cars at least 14 years ago.

Your response is a perfect illustration of my bigger point. How do hyperbole, exaggeration and plain old fashioned lies help the cause of understanding, appreciating and curating the history and legacy of the 'VZ' cars? How does telling the truth "minimize" anything?

People still calling the 'Vintage Z Program'/'Z Store' project "...unique in automotive history..." and that "No other car manufacturer has ever undertaken anything even remotely like it." Why does this misconception seem to be such a precious part of the story to so many people? Call it out as false and it's like you're some kind of apostate. Why? Bristol, Bentley, Morgan and - most prolifically - Aston Martin all undertook similar activities (Aston Martin still do...), buying back old models, refurbishing/restoring them and then selling them on as 'factory restored' product with a warranty. If British cars somehow don't count, how about East German manufacturer VEB and their Trabant? VEB had a policy of recycling customer cast-offs - as much out of necessity as anything else - all through their production life. You can nit-pick about the small details, but such activities were not "unique". Aston Martin are still doing it today, through their Aston Martin Works Service department: http://www.astonmartinworks.com/heritage-sales/aston-martin-mk1-db6-vantage So are Bristol Cars: https://bristolcars.co.uk/Sales-Post/?permalink=411-restoration Personally speaking, I'm a fan of the 'VZ' cars and the whole project, and the three examples I have seen in person were beautifully turned out cars that anybody would be happy to own. But getting facts wrong and exaggerating the significance of the program in the wider automotive field does none of us any good in the long term. Keep It Real.

One thing's for sure, the original book ('Z: 35 Years Of Nissan's Sports Car', published by Motorbooks in 2005) could do with a re-write. It would have benefitted from some pretty strict fact-checking and photo caption sub-editing before original publication. Being polite, it's not any kind of reference work on the marque.

I don't think 'Lstepp4re' should be too high on your list of Experten... You have world-class 'Z Store'/'Vintage Z Program' knowledge at your service right here on the classiczcars forum, and indeed already on this thread, in the form of our fellow member '26th-Z'. He compiled and privately published what most consider to be the definitive written work on the subject, and I'm sure he would be happy to answer any questions you put to him. If he doesn't have the answer - and he usually will - then he will know who to ask.

He also says he's going to write a new book about the Z, for publication late in 2020. Hope it turns out better than his last one.

Yes but what's the connection with zclub.net? From here: They are two - completely unconnected - clubs and forums.