HS30-H

Two points: "...earliest 240Z sketches..." is cart before horse. Nissan weren't designing the "240Z". They were working on a project which would be named 'Maru Z', '270KK' (#270 Kaihatsu Kigou) and - finally - 'S30-series'. The Export models were not named '240Z' until the eleventh hour, and long after the Domestic models had been given their chosen names. Goertz got a namecheck in the Mizma Gikou blog you are quoting from, which connected him with the CSP311 Silvia. As has been pointed out, Goertz had minimal input on the CSP311 and yet you still - a little further up - credit him yourself as a major contributor (and - as has also been pointed out - the *real* designers/stylists/engineers are not mentioned). The blog also calls the CSP311 - in typical hyperbolic fashion - a failure. Anybody who writes it off as such has clearly missed the point. Pointing at 'low sales' as failure, when high sales were not actually envisioned - let alone possible due to the production methods - is another example of quite complex stories being presented in simplistic form.

But you're perfectly happy with the "I know more about USA car culture than you do..." type statement that spawned it?

Ha ha ha! There it is. I think I'll frame it. "It failed". Utter, utter nonsense. You're on another planet.

Dennis, I'll ask your advice then. How would you answer somebody who says "You guys just don't have the perspective that comes from growing up in the car culture over here."...like there's something I'm missing? It's like he's telling me that I don't know what beef tastes like or something. I mean really, WTF? It's laughable.

Like it was news that the USA market had a huge potential for sales in the 60s and 70s? Every manufacturer worth its salt was aiming at the USA in some way during the post-war period. 'Export or Die' was the rallying call over here in the United Kingdom. It's telling that you cite Katayama as being in some way on-point, like he was Christopher Columbus or something. Late to the show, I'd say. Austin even put together a car especially aimed at the potential of the USA market, and called it the Atlantic. You could say "Made For The USA" about it. Didn't sell. The fact that it had been conceived and designed with the USA in mind simply wasn't enough. Quite frankly, it wasn't very good at being anything in particular. Key point. Nissan made a good car in the S30-series Z. Good stylistically, good dynamically. International exchange rates of the time as well as favourable shipping routes and open markets allowed it to fulfill its potential and sell well in North America, but at what point does aiming something at a particular market become making it for that market? All the other major manufacturers of sports cars were targeting the lucrative USA market too. Were their cars "made for" the USA, as in conceived, designed and engineered specifically for the USA, and nowhere else? How about all those other Nissans that paved the way - and even outsold - the Z? The tens of thousands of little pickup trucks, the Sunnies, the Bluebirds? Do the sales numbers mean that they too were "designed for the USA"? I don't think so. As I've said before, you only have to look at the details of the cars themselves to see the design concessions, the pragmatism and good engineering that went into them. It tells us that targeting a particular market for volume sales does not make a car like the S30-series Z solely about that market. The title given to this thread was "Interesting Historical Information Indicating Z was for US Market", so where is that information? What does the title even mean...?

But what relevance has "the car culture over here" got to the story of a Japanese car, conceived, planned, styled, engineered and built in Japan by Japanese people? Are you saying that 'American car culture' somehow trumps or overshadows all of that? How? Let me turn that back on you and ask you if you have experienced Japan and Japanese car culture? How about working in the Japanese company culture, in Japan? Ever been involved in Japanese manufacturing? I have. 30+ years worth of experience one way and another. I think it would be rather gauche of me to say "you don't understand", but you're happy to say it to me regarding the USA, even when we are talking about a Japanese product. Remind me, where is it you live again? Oh and Coronation Street and Manchester? You have my condolences...

What does this even mean? I grew up with American car culture in the family, along with ALL car culture. Nobody needs to grow up in the USA to be able to get a handle on it. It's the same market that all the other manufacturers were aiming at in the post-war period and beyond. Volume sales. To make money. Traditionally it has meant tweaking your product to suit. In Nissan's case with the S30-series Z, it meant a certain amount of de-contenting, softening it up and arguably dumbing it down - not to mention de-tuning it to suit local requirements. Part of the selling process was "we made it just for you!". It worked, didn't it? But how does this translate to 'Made ONLY for the USA'? The fact that Nissan made such an effort to engineer the S30-series Z for both domestic and export markets, and for RHD as well as LHD, should tell us all we need to know. The evidence is on every car. How come you never, ever seem to consider the size of Nissan's single most important market (Japan), Nissan's ambitions for itself against its domestic rivals, or indeed the hopes, dreams and ambitions of the Japanese car-buying public during the period concerned? Does none of that count as far as you are concerned? Do you think they were in the business of making stuff only for the USA? Sorry but all that stuff about the trucks - whilst it is interesting in and of itself - is pretty much irrelevant here.

So Goertz gets a name check, but nobody else who worked on the project - which was pretty much complete before Goertz even turned up - does? Historillogical.

I think it's the wide expanse of the Pacific Ocean - separating Japan and North America - that counts here.

Well said! The whole idea of downloading excerpts from the Mizma Gikoh one-man blog and presenting them here as 'History' is, in my view, seriously misguided. He has an agenda. Nothing wrong with that if the evidence stacks up to support it, but it simply doesn't. He's a Honda fan to boot. The irony is that some of the cars mentioned in the beginning of a very long list actually WERE targeting the North American/USA market (stand up SPL212 and SPL213) and yet they are judged to be some kind of failure. Presumably this is because they were pretty much entirely based on the S211, which was not exported? And no mention at all of the A80X which preceded all of them? It's hard to take seriously anything which states that "Datsun produced" anything. 'Datsun' was not in the business of designing, making or producing anything, because it was simply an emblem affixed to a Nissan product. In 2014 Hitoshi UEMURA - the Chief Engineer on the S30-series Z project - published his book 'Fairlady Z Development Record', in which he spends a lot of time mentioning that the ergonomics of the project included percentiles of Japanese females as well as American males, that the needs and requirements of other export markets than the USA were taken into account, and that requirements for the Japanese home market were just as important as any single export market. If you look at the cars themselves you can see the amount of care and attention that was given to both RHD and LHD layouts, and yet we still have to hear and read this "Made For The USA" stuff all the time. Look at the engine and drivetrain; They were not made primarily with LHD markets in mind. "Made/Designed For The USA" ought to be "Volume Sales Targeted For USA/North America". Same as most sports cars of the 1950s, 60s and 70s...

I don't really want to break a butterfly on a wheel here, but... *polite cough*

You realise that AMPCO/Atsugi were part of the Nissan group of companies, now under the very wide wing span of Hitachi, right? Maybe not. I'm interested (not to say flabbergasted...) to see that you are sticking with the idea of 'TORCO' as a supplier to Nissan. How about 'NISSAN MO'? Maybe 'GENUINEPA' or 'ARTSNISS'? The possibilities are almost endless...

Reality check:

I'm sorry but I find it hard to take the JDM Junkies thing seriously. He's got half a paper parts label, he's reading 'TORCO LTD' on it and concluding that 'TORCO LTD' were the manufacturers of suspension components for Nissan...? There may well be a parallel universe where somebody has found the other half of that paper label, is reading 'NISSAN MO' on it and concluding that 'NISSAN MO' were the manufacturers of suspension components for Nissan.

Hopefully useful reference: 17033-E4200 Electric Fuel Pump Bracket, as used on S20-powered cars from 1969: Mine, with NISMO-branded, Jidosha Kiki-made, Bendix-licensed pump:

"Wannabe 432-R" version... ;-)

One of mine:

Generally speaking, the finer the mesh the earlier the grille. To be honest, both of those look to have a fairly low gauge of mesh, meaning 'late'. If the mounting brackets are the same on both, if one has a finer mesh then that would be earlier than the other.

Possibly even more if we count all of the supersessions and the 432-R specific one too, but the big differences are the mesh gauge 'count' and the rolling differences in the mounting brackets. Edit to add: Perhaps some of the confusion about what's "period correct" for Japan comes from the fact that the HS30-S 'Fairlady 240Z' and HS30 'Fairlady 240Z-L' models - produced and sold between October 1971 and the end of 1973 - came with the slat type grille also seen on Export model cars. All the 2-litre cars had mesh grilles right the way through production.

Mesh gauge and mounting brackets changed over the years, but the mesh grille (a 'grill' is for cooking on...) was standard factory fitment on the Japanese market S30-series range from 1969 through 1978.

As I mentioned, the 14839-E4600 and 14840-E4601 do not appear to have been illustrated in any of the factory parts manuals. You'll probably need to find a real life example in the metal for your reference. About the square bracket, maybe you need a better illustration or two?

They didn't move from the 2 litre engine to the 2.4 litre engine. What happened was that three different L24-engined HS30-prefixed models were added to the existing two L20A-engined and two S20-engined models in October 1971, giving Japan a choice of no less than seven distinct S30-series Z models at that point. The brochure above corresponds with the October 1971 release of the L24-engined models.

From the USA & Canada factory parts manual: *14840-E4600 BRACKET - AIR PUMP *14839-E4600 BRACKET - AIR PUMP FRONT FOR PLUS COOLER *14840-E4601 BRACKET - AIR PUMP REAR FOR PLUS COOLER The 'plus cooler' version brackets are not actually illustrated in the parts manual.

It's worth knowing that Nissan was providing a fully developed and fully integrated air conditioning system for the S30-series Z as an extra cost showroom option from early 1970. It just wasn't offered on North American market cars, that's all. Provision for the compressor mount bracketry and etc seen on the L20/L20A, L23 and L24 engine block castings before 1973 was because the engines were also fitted to other models, most of which were offered (in Japan) with factory air conditioning. There were several different designs of compressor mount bracket, depending on model. What particular bracket diagram are you referencing?

Shall we define "nitpick"? How about "comments from people who might know a little more than you initially thought they do"? You would have swallowed anything he wrote. Go back and look at your reaction to his 'Ken & Mary' story. You almost fainted in a swoon. I was getting ready with the smelling salts. I've said it before and I'll say it again, "nitpicking" (and whatever else you want to call it) is the very lifeblood of a forum like this. That's part of the process of us coming to understand these cars properly and making the forum worth its salt. We have - in case some of you newcomers haven't noticed - been at it for a few years now. If cowboy Florida Fred over here doesn't like it then that's his loss. This is an automotive forum not a dating site.