HS30-H

Carl, They didn't test a proper factory-type G-Nose, did they? Do you honestly believe that Nissan ( and everybody else ) would have used the parts on their Group 4 cars if they were detrimental to aero performance over the 'standard' S30-series Z front end treatment? Alan T.

Yes, I'll scan the pages from the appropriate year's FIA year book and send them direct to you via e-mail. Got some other stuff to back it up with too. I suggest taking most of this discussion offline from here on in. Let's not allow your 'enemy' to get a look through any hole in the fence......... What's that old racing proverb? Something like ".....The REAL racing starts when the rule book is printed." :classic: Alan T.

The Kanji script on the first one reads 'Kyoku To'. That was the original Japanese name ( and one of the trademarks ) of a long-established and well respected company called 'Far East Trading' ( F.E.T. for short ). This is a nice manifold, very close to the original Nissan 'Sports Option' equipment, and with a generic 8mm spindle that is easy to find linkage parts for. However, as jmortensen has pointed out, it is more likely to have been supplied to fit an L20A or L20E six, and therefore will have a lot of meat at the cylinder head joint that would need to be taken out. Carburettor flange end for the 40mm and 44mm carbs ( 45mm Webers and Dell'Ortos too ) is the same though. The second one looks very similar to the 'Sanyo Kiki' / 'S.K' / 'Sanyo Sports Kit' item, although the pic is not that clear and I don't see the telltale 'San Yo' logo on the centre casting. These too were well respected in their time, and the linkage works well enough when set up properly. Again, probably originally made to fit the L20A or L20E sixes - so plenty of meat on the cylinder head end. Neither of them are particularly 'rare' in Japan, but these two eBay auctions are ( currently at least ) at comparatively low prices, and in my opinion they are good value. Alan T.

Tony, I have no idea where this guy came up with the figure of '482' either. I suspect that he might be confusing the 'HS30-H' model 'Fairlady 240ZG' with the 'PS30' and 'PS30-SB' model 'Fairlady Z432' and 'Fairlady Z432-R'. Even then his figures would be based on disputed evidence......... If I were you, I would stake all my chips on the FIA homologation amendment that legalised the factory G-nose for Group 4 competition use. The mere existence of this amendment page proves ( as far as the FIA were concerned ) that over 500 identical cars had been series-produced and were meant for sale to the general public. He can't argue with that. Amendment 9/8V to FIA homologation number 3023 proves that Nissan had complied with Article 251, Category A, Group 4 ( Special Touring Cars section ) of the International Sporting Code, Appendix "J", and had produced the quantity of 500 cars necessary within the time allowed. In the case of Group 4 during the period concerned, this was 24 consecutive months or less. The guys who protested you, and your sanctioning body, can't argue with this if they recognise and adhere to FIA rules. The amendment 9/8V was valid from 1st October 1973, and was retrospectively applied from a start date of August 1972. Factory 'HS30-H' 'Fairlady 240ZG' models were sold to the general public in Japan from late October 1971 through to the end of 1973. I don't believe I have ever seen an official factory-related document that conclusively states the quantities of Fairlady 240ZG models sold - but I have been told by numerous sources over the years ( and many of them ex-Nissan employees ) that just over 1000 were made. This would have made the G-Nose parts eligible for Group 2 ( over 1000 made ) but the factory never bothered with the necessary amendment to the homologation as it would have been pointless. I have in the past been called upon to 'prove' certain things to my insurance company here in the UK with regard to my factory Fairlady 240ZG. I carried out a lot of background research into the model, and had to present it to them as part of an 'agreed value' policy. The car is the only known genuine factory-built 'HS30-H' model in Europe - so it can be troublesome to insure properly. I've made sworn affidavits for presentation to RAC MSA and FIA competition scrutineers in the past, and would be happy to prepare one for you if you think it would help your situation. I can provide copies of all the necessary FIA regulation paragraphs and factory-sourced photos and data to support it. But to be honest, that single page ( amendment 9/8V to homologation number 3023 ) is all you should need. The ZG parts were available from the 'Sports Option' lists in Japan right up until Nissan's competitions departments ( 'Nissan Sports' / 'Nissan Sport Service' et al ) were merged to form NISMO in 1982. From then on, the parts continued to be available from NISMO until at least the mid-Nineties. They were NOT offered as a true 'Factory Option' to be specified on a new car - but one of the authorised 'Nissan Sport Service' dealers in Japan ( there were 17 of these by mid 1973 ) could supply and fit the parts should the Japanese customer wish. This would however have had implications for him on taxation class and other bureacracy that was open to interpretation ( especially by troublesome traffic police officers, apparently! ) so I don't think this will be all that useful to you in your current situation. Let me know what you need. Cheers, Alan T.

But that would be forgetting the Fairlady 240Z ( 'HS30' ), Fairlady 240Z-L ( 'HS30-S' ) or Fairlady 240ZG ( 'HS30-H' ) models. I think the thread title would probably be better if it were "Pic request, JDM S30-series Zs" It isn't a Fairlady, and it isn't an HS30-H either. Look again. That's an LHD car. You do irony now too, then? Diseazd, Take a look at this site's own Gallery section for LOTS of pics of Japanese home market S30-series Z cars ( of all denominations ). In particular, try a search for 'Sagamiko' in the 'Events' section. Here's a link to some: http://www.classiczcars.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=551 Alan T.

Well said that man. Not many others appear to be listening though........ The only purpose this thread is currently serving is that of identifying the people who are pissing in the well that we all need to drink from. I have no idea how member 'Mckrack' managed to avoid the site radar for so long and make upwards of 150 posts, but the alarms should be ringing by now and surely he's just a nasty accident waiting to happen. Those who are being sucked-in to this spurious thread please take note. I advocate a lifetime ban from this forum before its reputation is any more damaged. Alan T.

As a matter of fact, Matsuo san sketched that front end side-view during a conversation I initiated with him regarding the ZG. His notation of 'L' on the sketch meaning 'Long' nose Z. We were discussing headlamp covers and ther details of the front ends. He was - and is - very proud of the styling of the ZG. 'Kotobuki' also made the FRP parts for the factory ZG, by the way.......... Just out of interest, I believe we first discussed Kotobuki and the headlamp bucket manufacturing on this thread, back in 2004: http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15711 Alan T.

Yes. Me too. "Years later"? Are we playing S30-series Z Chief Designer Top Trumps here? I think I first met Matsuo san seven years ago - at one of the NISMO Festivals at Fuji Speedway - and then again at one of the Club S30 / S30 Owners Club meets at Sagamiko, where he did a mini talk-through of some design points on the S30-series Z ( using Takeuchi san's 432-R as his guinea pig ) which was fascinating. When he visited the UK on his way to Frankfurt, I was able to spend quite a bit longer with him - giving me the chance to ask him some questions that were of particular interest to me. Of course I'm not an architect, so I could have misunderstood some of what he was saying.........

So whereabouts in the "Project X Challengers" book is the story of the headlight buckets being changed from FRP to steel solely to satisfy US MVSS laws for the "1973 Model Year"? I only have the ( original ) Japanese edition - which does not mention US MVSS in relation to the headlamp buckets. Yokoyama wrote a nicely softened-up and simplified ( 'Katayama' version ) of events, but I still don't see anything but purely practical reasons for the ( temporary ) use of FRP for the headlamp buckets until the press tooling and jigs for the two-part steel versions could be perfected.

Well, I have had the great privilege of spending some time ( a few times, actually ) with Mr Yoshihiko Matsuo. He has a great number of such stories to tell. I think it was Hiroo Miyate who had the brainwave on the station platform. Miyate was one of Matsuo's colleagues on the S30-series Z design team, and his input - along with the other key members - was very important. The story has been recounted several times in magazine articles over the last few years - probably because it makes a nice little vignette, and the 'brainwave on the platform' illustrates that this ( young! ) design team had put their hearts and souls into the design, and were totally immersed in what they were doing. They hardly ever switched off. There's a very interesting interview with Matsuo san in the June 2007 edition ( Volume 121 ) of Nostalgic Hero magazine, where he recounts some more interesting tales surrounding the design of the S30-series Z. Some of the photos used to illustrate the article are from Matsuo's own personal archive. Fascinating stuff. Alan T.

That's more than somewhat 'cart before horse'......... Chief Designer Matsuo relates the story rather differently. As 26th-Z alluded to in his post, Nissan Shatai struggled to make the headlamp buckets from steel initially ( due to their complex shape ) and one of the design team had the brainwave to get them made from FRP. This brainwave came whilst sitting on a railway station platform, on seats that had been moulded from FRP by a company called 'Kotobuki'. Kotobuki made the headlamp buckets from FRP for Nissan, but in the meantime ( during 1970 ) Nissan Shatai's press tool designers managed to devise an economical and practical way to make them from steel. This allowed them to drop Kotobuki as the supplier, who had proved to be fairly slow and expensive - which was understandable considering the process involved. The intention always was to make them from steel. It just took a little time to sort it out, that's all. Alan T.

Winning bid was 4,000,000 Yen. Genuine KPGC10 I believe. The only 'problem' being that the car had lost its registration number through years of storage and the previous owner not being present ( either deceased or otherwise incapacitated ) - so a possible lack of paperwork. A little bit of bureaucracy to deal with, but not impossible. Hopefully another one saved then....... :-)

zbane, Almost exactly two years ago we had a thread started on the subject of that book ( a classiczcars.com classic thread with many valid points and contrasting viewpoints, in my opinion ) and it still makes good reading, I reckon: http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19471 Alan T.

You know, somehow I find that strangely comforting. ;-) You may well have read me right. But my condescension is possibly a little more tongue-in-cheek than you might imagine, and Carl gives just as good as he gets anyway. It's a two-way street. You're going to have your work cut out if you are volunteering to be referee in that particular contest :-) Aha! Noted - and with a red face. I'll leave my foot in my mouth a little longer as a kind of penance. Sorry. Well, the abridged version ( possibly better suited to your attention span? ) is that - in the world of the first generation Z car at least - I'm nobody. That's something that both you and I have in common. Next question? Nice to converse with a man who knows professionalism when he sees it. On the other hand I find it slightly disappointing that you don't seem to be able to imitate it ( [D*ck van Dyke fake 'Cockney' accent] mate [/D*ck van Dyke fake 'Cockney' accent] ). You have a half-hidden talent for comedy. Don't hide your light under a bushel. You can use the 'SEARCH' function on the forum to find out that your opinion is ill-informed. You're making a great Bud Costello to my Lou Abbott. Here's the punch line: For the 1969 calendar year, Nissan Shatai ( that's the factory that actually made 'our' cars ) reported in writing that they had made a total of 1,512 'S30-series' Z cars. Of that 1,512 Z cars, 543 were categorised as 'Export' models. Note that this does not mean that all 543 of these 'Export' models were 'HLS30' VIN-prefixed cars, nor that they were all actually sent to the USA and Canada. Of that 1,512 Z cars, 969 were categorised as 'Domestic' models. 'Domestic' ( just a little reminder for you ) in this case being Japan. A few of those 969 cars, and some of their brothers and sisters that were born slightly later, are now some of the most monetarily valuable and 'collectable' Z cars in the world today. You must be kidding. This is a life and death struggle we are dealing with here.......... Alan T.

I noticed that you used the term "we" when you yourself had not actually posted on the thread ( unless I missed that? ). There's part of my point right there; This is not a conversation between a bunch of acquaintances being conducted across a bar-room table. This is the internet, and the thread will become part of a resource that can be referenced by anyone with 'net access for some years to come. Hence the need ( I think ) to make it more clear as to what we are talking about. Especially as the topic in question is based around the subject of Japanese cars, rather than American cars. The cars in question are 'for sale' on eBay. That means that anyone with an eBay account ( anywhere in the World ) is able to bid on them, or ask somebody to bid for them on their behalf. It would not take much effort to get in touch with the seller direct either - so anything is possible. I myself could - arguably - make anoffer on them ( taking advantage of the low relative value of the $US against British Sterling ) and end up with a feasibly restorable low-VIN 'HLS30' model for not much more than I would have to stump up for a fairly bad condition UK market car. There's a different perspective of relative value for you. You see my point? Once cars get to a certain level of perceived relative value, then the powers of the WORLD market come into play - in just the same way that they do in the markets for art, antiques and other portable items. International borders and shipping / duty costs start to be less of a hindrance and disincentive, and items will move around more. This will affect prices, and anybody who thinks that they are still looking at a local garage-sale situation is going to get the occasional surprise. I think we should all remember the true implication of terms like "1969 production Z cars" and "the Collector Z Car Community" when we use them on international internet-based forums. To do so is to be wise, and I think that has got to be a good thing. Alan T.

And who exactly might "we" be? I suggest you take a closer look at post #23, and think about it's contents from the viewpoint of a person who might well reside outside the borders of the United States of America. This is an internet forum with members ( and viewers ) from all over the world. If anyone wants to talk in 'definitive' terms about the values of 'Z cars produced in 1969', and "the Collector Z Car Community" ( whatever that is ) then they really ought to make it clear that they are only talking about the 'HLS30U' model and the territory of the United States of America.

Sulio, I don't think SK ( Sanyo Kiki ) have made any L6 inlet manifolds for many years now - unless you know different? Bear in mind that some of the inlet manifolds on the market were originally aimed at LHD configurations, and are therefore different in shape to those aimed at RHD configurations. Some of the LHD-biased designs were aimed at avoiding interference with tubular exhaust manifolds that were themselves avoiding the steering linkages on LHD cars. The Nissan L6 was fitted to so many different cars over such a long period of time that it makes used inlet manifold buying a bit of a minefield if you include those produced for the Japanese market. Companies such as SK, Hayashi, HKS, Mikuni and many other used to produce different inlet manifolds and linkage kits to suit different generations of Z, let alone Skylines, Laurels and other models of Nissans with L-gata engines. Personally, I think the manifold and linkage kits still produced by Harada and Tomei would be best for your RHD car. The Harada in particular has a nice linkage kit included in it which can be set up using the original rod actuation or a cable actuation ( with the parts supplied ). I have a Harada on my ZG, and have sourced and imported them for numerous users here in the UK and Europe - all without complaint. I would have thought there would be plenty of importers in Australia who would source a Harada or Tomei manifold from Japan for you? Worth asking, anyway. Alan T.

I know how you feel. Almost every time I see you writing about these Japanese cars. Only up until the point that you started waxing lyrical about 1969 production year Z cars, and writing about ".....the 69 Z owners..." and "...the Collector Z Car Community...." without qualifying the fact that you were only referring to one market model and one market. After that the thread was fair game for a little reminder that these are Japanese cars we are talking about here. As is so often the case, you are making my point for me ( thank you! ). You cannot have your cake and eat it, can you? You can't harp on about rarity and market value for one sector of the first generation Z car family whilst ignoring another sector - equally valid in the design and engineering story - that was, and still is, much rarer and which commands higher resale and insurance values today. Some of us here are very proud and happy to own some of the "few", and have had the pleasure of the Chief Designer of the 'family' telling us that they were, and are, just as important in the concept, design and engineering processes as the "many". No, I don't need to do anything other than remind you that the first generation S30-series Z cars were a family of models ( designed, engineered and productionised as such ) and were aimed at more than one single market. That's straight from the mouth of the Chief Designer, and backed up by his team. If you are writing about only one market version ( and even then forgetting that the 'HLS30' models were sold in territories other than mainland USA ) then you need to qualify that fact. It's not difficult. Just a matter of a few extra words. And like me, you don't seem to be short of words and the time to write them. Alan T.

Oh dear. 'The Z World' seems to have retreated to the confines of USA territory again. "Second most exclusive group of 69 Z owners"? Ha ha. Any 1969 production 'HLS30' is going to be in at least the fourth 'most exclusive' group ( and maybe even lower ) by my reckoning. If you want to prove me wrong, you'll have to come up with the numbers of 1969 production S30, PS30 and HS30 prefixed body numbers still extant. I won't be holding my breath. As I keep reminding you ( and you keep ignoring ) the real "price leaders in the Collector Z Car community" are certain cars in Japan that your "Serious Collectors" in the USA ( ha ha ) have not yet added to their collections. Alan T.

Actually, the "240Z" was only one of the "original" Zs. The term "240Z" also covers a multitude of different models, different specs and different markets. Always worth remembering, I think.

Carl, I'm having great trouble in understanding just what kind of a real-world example the above case is meant to illustrate? Two "serious collectors" ( in the USA I presume? ) were "considering" a car that was being sold in Japan, but eventually did not buy it because.............. because er,............... because they would / could not travel to inspect it, transfer the money to pay for it, and the shipping was too much "hassle"? I'm sorry, but what does this little escapade tell us about the prices that Fairlady Z432s change hands for in Japan?! As far as I can see, it actually tells us more about the two "serious collectors" ( hereinafter to be known as the "not so serious collectors"..... ) than it does about the market in Japan. That is of course presuming that you are relating the story accurately (?)...... It doesn't take much to jump on a 'plane to Japan ( although your "serious collectors" might need to own a valid Passport and be able to afford the few hundred Dollars for the air fare ) to go and inspect something that costs a fair chunk of anyone's money. Having to transfer money to Japan in payment for the car is a given, and people do it safely every day. It would be illegal for them to take that amount of cash into Japan by hand without declaring it on arrival - so how else were they thinking this was going to work? Shipping a car of that value from Japan to anywhere in the USA is easy, easy, easy - and certainly a lot easier to arrange, faster and cheaper than the cars that I have shipped from Japan to UK. The market for Fairlady Z432s is in Japan - simply because that is where all the cars are currently located. Jack - who asked the question - is in Australia. I am in England. How on earth does the aborted interest of these two "serious collectors" or your 'assessment' of a theoretical situation should such a car come up for sale in the USA have any bearing on the prices of cars that change hands in Japan? It has none whatsoever. It did however provide me with a good laugh on a Monday morning. For that at least, thank you! :classic:

Darkness? I'm the one with my eyes wide open, trying to imagine the WORLD situation in the same way that Nissan was seeing it during the period concerned. I'm not looking down the wrong end of a telescope that is pointing in the wrong direction - as you so often seem to be. Your above post is a good example of the way you seem to want to twist data or 'facts' to suit your particular agenda, and then discount any evidence offered that contradicts it by simply moving your goal posts. You ask if any country outside the USA had more than 10 dealers in 1970 ( laughably ignoring Japan......! ) and then backpedal like crazy when somebody comes up with numbers that make your question look shortsighted and ill-informed. Worst of all you seem to have the stance that all situations in all territories should be compared using the situation in the USA as the benchmark - when you appear to know next to nothing about the situation in the home territory of the manufacturing company concerned, or realise that they had a very wide view of the potential of a WORLD market and were actively pursuing it. Your quote from the Autosport ( UK ) article of 1971 - and your comments on the content therein - also show how little you 'get'. The reason that you can't believe that Datsun UK Ltd. managed to have over 110 franchised and active dealers in the UK in 1970 when they were formed "in the last few months of that year" is because you are totally ignoring ( or totally oblivious? ) to the fact that this was simply a re-structuring and re-naming of the previous franchise situation - a company known as 'Nissan-Datsun Concessionaires Ltd'. The import of Nissan products to the UK did not begin in 1970, and there were many franchised and active dealerships in the UK before 1970. You might well try to split hairs about the status of these franchised dealers, and the fact that they were selling comparatively low numbers of cars in comparison to elsewhere. However, you would also need to take into account that they were operating in a market that was very competitive, and which already had a good choice of comparable products at similar prices being sold by more well-established companies that were not shipping their products half way around the world. Nevertheless, Nissan were taking the UK market seriously as part of their WORLD view - as part of a European market sector - in just the same way as they were taking territories like Finland seriously. They were NOT putting all of their eggs in one basket. Data? Try this for starters:

Too funny? You know Carl, if you want to continue citing these little factoids as proof that the USA / Canada market was BIG ( wow - who'd a thunk it? ) then you will have to do a little more in-depth research into the numbers you use. And to think that you are the one talking about the blurring of facts! For your reference ( maybe you'll write this down ): In 1970, Datsun UK had over 110 franchised and active dealerships. That's a few more than 10. I'll give you some kudos if you can tell me just how many Nissan dealerships were active in Japan ( you know - that little place on the other side of the world that made "American" cars for you ) during the same period. Always bearing in mind that such data is actually "irrelevant" as far as you seem to be concerned.

Well, any inference of the "(L)" looking like an "afterthought" might end up in an emotive conversation - but that's not what I intended to point out. The fact is that Nissan quite often did this kind of thing when describing models in the S30-series range ( and indeed many other models ), and I think it gives an insight into the way they thought about the models concerned on that piece of paper. My point was that the quoted "H(L)S30(U)", when extrapolated properly, would cover the following models: *HS30 ( Japanese market - RHD L24 engined models ) *HS30-U ( Export market - RHD L24 engined models ) *HLS30 ( European mainland Export market - L24 engined models ) *HLS30-U ( USA & Canada Export markets - L24 engined models ) See my point? The term is more inclusive than some realise or remember. Since the document concerned was written well before any of the cars concerned were on sale to the general public, one has to wonder just what the following quote has to do with it: Yes, we know how many cars were sold in the USA/Canadian markets - but how do these numbers sold diminish the fact that the S30-series Z range was designed, engineered and produced as just that: a range or family of models - both LHD and RHD, and with differences in equipment and specifications across that range. Numbers sold tell us some of the story - but it is not the whole story - and they certainly do not give us a true perspective of the compromises and concessions made during the planning of the range. Numbers sold come after that fact, and are directly linked to the potential of those markets ( especially their populations and the price at which the product is sold ). I think anybody who can see a little further than the end of their own nose would easily see that the S30-series Z is a Japanese product that was designed, engineered and produced to suit several different markets, and several types of end user. If you think that preaching that message is to blur the facts then I feel rather sorry for you. Unfortunately Carl, you yourself are guilty of some of the worst cases of fact-blurring and spin on forums such as this one. Here are some good examples: Now, I think anybody would be able to see that those are some pretty aggressive views to be held on a Japanese industrial product - and to be honest ( from my perpective at least ) they are more than a little jingoistic. You really should not be all that surprised if some people take offence to such comments, and point out that they are don't really hold as much water as you seem to think they do. One only has to take one of these cars apart to get a clue as to the wrong-headedness of such bluster. Better still, line up the whole S30-series Z model range as it was at launch and one will instantly see that there is more to the story than what you usually put forward. Quantities sold tell us one part of the story - but nothing like the whole story. I'm interested in the whole story, and the inescapable fact is that it is a Japanese story of a Japanese product. Just looking at numbers sold is a very dangerous pastime for the automotive scholar. One could be led to believe that VW's Type 1, 2 & 3 models ( somewhat pioneering that lucrative USA market ) were actually 'American' cars because of the quantities sold there. How about the Porsche 356 and 911, or even ( dare I say it ) numerous English 'sports' cars of the 1950s & 1960s? They all sold in impressive numbers to the USA market, but that doesn't tell the whole story, does it? Alan T.

Chris, You are welcome. As I say, I hope I did the ( Japanese ) story some justice. You will get different versions of the story depending on the perspective and allegiances of the teller, and - make no mistake - some of the bad feeling and personality clashes still linger to this day. One thing you might want to take into account with regard to the story of the higher performance L24-engined 'ghost' model that the 432 / 432R replaced, is that Nissan still produced most of the parts ( and more besides ) that were to be fitted to this model and they sold them through their 'Sports Options' lists in Japan. This meant that a customer in Japan could walk into the appropriate dealership in Japan and specify a new Z with as many of these Sports Option parts as he required. The car would then be built to order and delivered for one price - so the choice of a 'hot' L-engined version was still there. These 'Sports Option' parts were available in some other markets - but just as parts. However, here in the UK the concessionaires ( Datsun UK ) didn't want anything to do with them. Anybody in the UK who wanted the stuff had to approach a dealer who would lend a kind ear, or approach Nissan in Japan direct. Not fair, eh? By the way, notice that the English language Japanese brochure that Carl attached above describes the car as the "H(L)S30(U)"? Some people seem to miss the full significance of that designation.......... Jack, Nitpicking for a moment ( sorry ): Please note that Kats' new car is a 'PS30' model Fairlady Z432. It is NOT a 'PS30-SB' model Fairlady Z432-R ( which is rarer by a factor of around 20 ). It is also ( adamantly, I suspect! ) NOT a "240Z" either......... But to attempt to answer your question; The very BEST Fairlady Z432 models change hands privately, and don't often get openly advertised for sale. The better examples of cars that DO change hands through advertising are currently demanding upwards of the equivalent to around US$50,000~60,000 and this is an upward trend. Proper 432-R models ( less than 25 sold to the general public ) have already changed hands for over US$120,000. Alan T.