HS30-H

Hi Carl, OK - adding the table of Export and Production quantities from the MIKI Press book ( the original source was Nissan's Press Department ) to that page on zhome.com is an improvement of sorts ( good effort ) - but I still think the table above it is misleading when compared to the page title. As we know, the table of figures from the "Datsun 280ZX" book DOES NOT appear to include production or sales figures for Japanese domestic market models ( at least not for 1969, 1970 and 1971 ). Should such a list be sitting underneath a page title heading of "Z Car Production and Sales Reports"? I think it should be made clear that it includes ( or at least it appears that way ) only Export vehicles. That's not the whole story is it? Do you see where I'm coming from? Japanese domestic model S30-S, S30, PS30, PS30-SB, HS30-S, HS30, HS30-H, GS30 and etc etc etc are all 'Z' cars too. I think a website called "zhome" should have space for the whole Z family. That's what homes are for, no? Alan T.

Quoted from zhome.com: "The HS30 series cars (right hand drive models) started production in Jan. of 1970, and were given a separate chassis serial number series. While there seems to be some wide spread misunderstanding related to the year of manufacture of these cars, (which is not helped by Nissans own publications, which give broad ranges within which certain series of cars were produced). There is sufficient evidence to bear this out." End quote. "Started production" might mean one thing to one person, and one thing to another. Here's some evidence of Nissan's take on the matter:

The page heading on zhome.com reads: "Z Car Production and Sales Reports". However, when I look at the table and scan across to the column headed "others" ( this includes Japan I presume??? ) I see that the figure quoted for 1969 is "0", and the figure quoted for 1970 is "3". In my garage I have a Fairlady Z-L which was sold to the original owner ( in Japan ) in September 1970. I have the original sales receipt. The body number of this car 'S30-03761', so how does it relate to the figure of "3" on the published table? First of all, I would respectfully suggest that the page heading at zhome.com is completely misleading. If it does not accurately include the Japanese market models then it cannot be titled "Z Car Production and Sales Reports". Secondly, if it does not include the Japanese market models, then how can we trust the quoted figures for RHD Export market cars? 'HS30' VIN-prefixed models were sold in Japan from late 1971 onwards - so if no clear definition of the inclusion or exclusion of these models in the tables is made, how can they be trusted? I remind you of the word "production" used in the page title. I see no attachment. I have the book, so I know what tables you are referring to - but I don't think everybody else here does. EDIT: OK - you edited your post and attached the scan. Thank you. I must not be a "reasonable" person then. I'm troubled by the difference between 3 and 3761 for a start. It doesn't seem "slight" to me..... I see no caveats or caution notices regarding the information on production and sales presented at zhome.com. In my opinion, the figures are flawed and yet there is no acknowledgement that this might be the case. This is misleading. Changing the title of the page might be a good start. Alan T.

As far as I could tell, you were spending time trying to make a direct link to Prince. Viz: .....and that's how you set out your stall. "1966" comes out of nowhere, and the Prince G7 is implied to have a direct engineering link with the L16 ( and therefore the L24 ). It does not. Carl, my "perspective" comes from reading the words of Mr Hiroshi Iida - the chief designer / engineer of Nissan's 'L-Gata' engine. I didn't have any kind of 'immaculate conception' and make anything up on my own. This is not my truth - it is the truth of the man that was responsible for the engine's creation. You seem to be setting great store by the difference between the 'L20' and the 'L20A' - almost to the extent of avoiding the idea that they are directly related. This is of course not historically accurate, and the L20A is recognised in Japan as an update to the basic L20 ( first ) design of "L-Gata Module" ( more on that later - maybe in its own thread ). You draw a line between the two, and it would appear that ( from other things you have written ) the main purpose of this is to delineate between the L24 and anything that might threaten its reputation as 'the' Z engine. That would appear to be why you wanted to deny that the L20 was slated for the S30-series Z before the L24 ( misinterpreting Matsuo ). You are it seems always in denial that the S30-series Z was a family of cars from the drawing board. The fact that the engineers at Nissan - headed by Hiroshi Iida on the 'L-Gata Module" - were also aware that they were designing a family of engines seems fitting answer to you. With all due respect to you Carl, this is complete bullsh*t - and I wonder if you would be bold enough to stand in front of Hiroshi Iida and say such a thing. I'm not speaking for him - but I have to wonder whether he would believe you knew anything about the 'L-Gata Module' and the design brief that he and his team had been given in November 1964. Since he and his team designed the L20, the L20A and the L13 / L14 / L16 - I'd have to wonder what he would say to you...... There you are - doing it again. The L13 was designed at the same time as the L16! WHY are you implying that the L16 came before the L13? The only reason I can think of ( stop me if you've heard this one before ) is because it fits in more snugly with your preconception that the Export market was leading all design and engineering at that time. It was not. And here once again. You seem to pay no heed to the fact that the 'L-Gata Module' was purposely given a bore spacing that would accommodate a large percentage of increase in piston diameter, and a deep enough block casting to accommodate a wide range of strokes. THIS is the whole point about the evolutionary link between the first production L-Gata engine and all the others that followed. And HOW can you state that the 1965 L20 ( as used on the H130 ) was so radically different in design and layout to the L13/L16/L20A/L24???!!! And especially to re-state that old 'Mercedes' chestnut - its a joke! Anybody who looks at that H130 L20 will see its obvious similarities to the L20A and L24 and indeed all the other L-series engines. In fact, the only significant visual difference would be the movement of the thermostat housing. Don't cite the cam cover attachment difference, as the first L20As also had this type. Sorry - but I don't know where you are coming from. But it is clear - you are NOT correct. In no way can the L16 ( there you go - citing the L16 as though it is of prime significance again ) be called a "clean slate" design. The 'L-Gata Module' was designed before Prince engineers were on the scene at Nissan, and the L16 is simply one of a family of engines that evolved from that 'Module'. L16 on its own again. A reminder of your perspective. And I believe that to understand where the '240Z' came from - and why so much of its design turned out like it did - one has to look at the WHOLE story. That includes thinking of the S30-series Z as a family of models from the drawing board, right through the engineering and production process and on to the showroom floor. Ignore ANY one of those models ( or more - as you are known to do in the case of the Fairlady Z and Fairlady Z-L ) and you will blind yourself to the whole story. This is the same mistake as ignoring Hiroshi Iida's 'L-Gata Module' and focussing primarily on the L16 as some kind of 'Year Zero' marker. Big mistake. And anybody who receives the translation might like to note that my translation of the original chapter title - written by Matsuo san - ( "Shodai Z Design Kaihatsu Shuki" ) would read: "Original Z Design Development Essay" - which might give you a little inkling about 'perspective'..........Matsuo san was writing about the whole Z family - as seen at the 1969 Tokyo Auto Show - and not just the 'Datsun 240-Z'. Alan T. PS - By way of a reminder, here's that photo of the L20 engine - as used in the H130-model Nissan 'Cedric Special Six' in 1965. Does anybody seriously think that this does not have a direct evolutionary link to 'our' L20A, L24, L26 and L28 engines?

Carl, Thanks for finally responding ( look what it took to get you to the table again ), and thanks for the free character assessment. I'll add it to my collection. Puzzlingly ( considering the subject is a Japanese car ) I don't see much in the way of Japanese sources in your bibliographies, either at zhome.com or here on classiczcars.com when you mention your 'sources'. Granted the language problem is a bit of a hindrance, but it appears to me ( with my "warped agenda" ) that you positively avoid Japanese data unless it backs up what you already believe. My personal experience is that I learned far more about the subject from Japanese sources than I did from English language sources, with one of the most important lessons being a sense of perspective on a Japanese industrial product. Wouldn't you expect a scholar of ancient Greece to learn a little about what was written in the ancient Greek language? Perhaps an extreme example - but do you take my point? I think this is not exactly rocket science, but it may be anathema to somebody who keeps calling the S30-series Z an "American Car, Made In Japan" ( that's a high-mileage quote these days, and I've put some miles on it myself ) and somebody who appears to pay more attention to sales jingles and advertising copy than the voices of the blue collar guys. Dan Banks - as far as I can tell through my contact with him - seems to me to be far more open-minded about the Japanese side of the story than you are, and perhaps a little more pragmatic. He certainly seems to respect Japanese source material, and I don't see that with you. But what do I know? Maybe so ( and by the same token, just because it is written in English doesn't mean it is automatically correct ), but have you actually seen the articles / books that I have referenced in this thread? You appear to be damning or discounting them without even having knowledge of what they contain. In the case of the interview with Mr Hiroshi Iida ( the chief design engineer of the Nissan L-Series engine ) that would appear to be folly in the extreme. Where else are you expecting to see an interview with the man? If you want to know what is written in the piece ( which seems a good place to start if you want to give it "credence", or to discredit it ) then you will have to have it translated for you.

Carl, I asked for your response to some questions I put to you. You seem to be ignoring this request so far. Do I take it that you have no answer? This topic is close to my heart. I think the Nissan 'L-Gata' engine was a great basic engine design that is pretty much World-renowned for its flexibility, reliability and durability - let alone the fact that it was able to be turned into a race winner. But ( just like the situation with the design of the S30-series Z ) almost nobody knows the name of the key designer behind it, and its true heritage and evolution is distorted by rogue data and advertising copy. I think this is a great shame. I'm going to embark on starting a new thread topic in the near future, as I think this subject warrants it. But I also think that the points raised in this thread need to be settled before it goes into the archives and gets used as reference material in the future. So Carl - I'm asking you politely - I think it requires further comment from you. In my opinion, that's what these forums are for. Alan T.

Yes, its to make more space for those "BIG" cams that we sometimes hear people talking about........ 26th-Z probably touched on the closest reason to the truth. Curves cost more money. Straighter lines are cheaper.

Some comparison pics: