HS30-H

Thank you Mike. I have edited the post accordingly. Thank you for the suggestion, Mike. I had actually considered doing just that, but I don't know how such questions would be taken. Quite often it seems that asking for bald and inaccurate statements ( such as that "....the first Z car sold to the public" ) to be corrected or refined is taken as some kind of political attack on the USA, and this might be worse with a close-knit 'local' forum. I thought I'd bring it up here, as I honestly think there is a greater depth of knowledge here, and there are one or two people that understand what it is I'm trying to get at. You do understand what it is I'm trying to get at, don't you? This forum is quite a lot different now than it was a few years ago. I now see figures such as yourself stating with obvious conviction that the S30-series Z range was designed for a world market, when just a few short years ago it seemed as though such beliefs were the equivalent of witchcraft. This is a great inspiration, but unfortunately we still see posts such as the one on this thread where 'production figures' that are known to be wrong are quoted with a link that includes the words "History/Zproduction.html" - so we all go back to square one...... Maybe I'll see if I can find the right way to bring the subject up on the ctzcc.com forum. See? That's perfect. Nobody can argue with that. That's what I'm looking to see. It can't be that hard, can it? Cheers, Alan T.

I think I'm making a fairly good effort to say something substantial, but you're ignoring it :classic: You haven't answered any of my questions, by the way. With your ability to see into the future, I think you would have been very useful to Nissan around 1968/69. At that point they had designed and engineered a new family of sports / GT cars, and hoped to sell a high number of one particular basic variant to the north American market ( ahem, not just the USA ). You could of course have told them just how many they were going to sell, and they could have tooled up appropriately ( instead of underestimating it, which is what DID happen ). Hindsight seems to make those numbers look like a 'done deal' to you. Of course my point - which you conveniently ignore - is that the numbers sold don't actually tell us the whole story of the concept, design and engineering of the S30-series Z range as seen at launch. Talking about the "240Z" ( which 240Z? ) as though it is Z Genesis is just a symptom of the problem. But of course, I'm just "nit picking" and you are doing something else entirely Any volunteers on the HLS30-00016 original sale story? I'm building my hopes up for a good laugh.

Thanks Dave, I've gone back and edited my little omissions of the L button. Getting rather late here at 02:46am..... Of course, you must realise that - whilst it is all about the money in the long term - its not always about the money in the short term. Certain models and variants can be sold in a market because its good for the image of the brand, and certain - somewhat expensive - activities such as racing and rallying can be undertaken simply because its good for the brand. So good for business in the BIG picture, but not necessarily profitable if you can only see "1929" cars through the ole Beck-O-Vision, even if it can look back through time to see certainties where there were originally just hopes.

I hope you don't mind me singling out this particular quote for some extra attention? First of all, I think you are - stop me if you've heard this one before - falling into the same old trap as many others. You don't seem to have any concept of how seriously a company like Nissan ( amongst its sworn enemies in the Japanese market ) took its own image and sense of self worth both then - in 1969 - and now. There's a very strong case to put that Nissan and its home rivals in that period ( and still so today ) took their own domestic market even more seriously than it took any single export market, but outsiders very rarely recognise it. Who told you that the "240Z" - or a car like it with perhaps a different name - would not have existed but for the USA market? On the contrary, it is almost unthinkable that Nissan would not have a model, and even several variants of a current model, in that sector in that period, regardless of any export business considerations. Basically, if you don't get this then you don't get Japan. Thanks for the extra barb of the '1929' cars ( itself an inaccurate figure ) for the UK market. It's flattering of you to aim at me specifically, but the UK market is not some silly pseudo patriotic obsession of mine I'm afraid. I tend to have my eye on the tens of thousands of JAPANESE market cars that the "production list" you quoted above seems to be blind to. Yes of course, Nissan would not have made a huge amount of money out of those UK market cars - but I can assure you they did hope to sell a few more than that. Unlike you, they took the UK market seriously and made a special effort to tailor the car to the needs of a somewhat unfavourable marketing position ( tariff quotas and high import duties to name just two ). They made their presence felt and stepped up their image. It wasn't all about making money. And just a little reminder that "Datsun" never had any "burning desire" in relation to these cars, because "Datsun" was just a badge that was placed on some of them. The company was Nissan, of course. Cheers, Alan T.

Steve, with respect... Perspective? Looks like the view down the old 'Beck-O-Vision' telescope to me.... Unfortunately, you have fallen into the same trap as so many others. You seem to believe that these production and sales figures - viewed in retrospect - tell us something about the concept, design, styling, engineering and pre-production processes of the S30-series Z range. That's right, a range of models and variants intended for several different markets. The validity is right there. You don't seem to mention the S30 or PS30 variants ( no surprise there then ) and you certainly don't address the plain fact that the term "240Z" is almost meaningless in the context of the BIG story unless you state which "240Z" model you are talking about. Does it include my UK-market 240Zs, but not my Fairlady 240ZGs? I don't see any figures for the Japanese market in the above list ( a market which received models with the 'HS30' prefix, and which were called '240Z' too.... ) so I think I could be forgiven for calling it inaccurate and meaningless garbage, at the very least. Of course, we've been here so very many times before on this forum. As Unkle says, I'm beating my head against a metaphorical brick wall in trying to get people like you to understand that the men who designed and engineered these cars ( as opposed to the somewhat larger than life figures who got their names attached to them ) were working on projects intended for more than one market, and would have told you in early 1969 that they were just about to release a family of new sports / GT cars onto the world stage, rather than just one single model into one single market. Maybe you should pay a little more attention to what they said about it, rather than simply quoting more USA-centric twaddle on a Japanese car from zhome.com? Production figures? How about we look at those for the E-type Jaguar, the Porsche 356 and 911, or even those shitty little Triumph and MG sports cars that some "Datsun" fans like to poke fun at? How about VW's Type 1, 2 and 3? HUGE sales in the USA for all, but "designed for" the USA? I don't think so. How about you look at the sales figures for the little Datsun sedans and pickup trucks that were selling alongside those "Zee cars" in the USA showrooms? They were eclipsing HLS30 sales, but were they too "American cars, made in Japan"...? The answer of course is that, no, they were not. Nor were they ever expected to be. And now that the somewhat vulgar topic of monetary value has reared its head, perhaps you might like to ponder on which car out of the following will be most valuable, considering its rarity: S30-00013, PS30-00013, HS30-00013 or HLS30-00013...? The people telling you that these early HLS30s are sure-fire 'investments' are also - somewhat paradoxically - boasting that they are the commonest of the brood, and with the highest survival rate. WTF indeed. Drifting off topic we most certainly are, so to bring it back to the subject of HLS30-00013 ( and HLS30-00016 ) can you answer any of my questions in this thread? Can you fill me in on the details of the original sale of HLS30-00016 ( in October 1969 ), or how it has been determined that HLS30-00013 was "...the first Z sold"....? I must say though, that its nice to have a debate that we can all get our teeth into again...... Cheers, Alan T.

With respect, this here "questioner of the truth" ( ) is saying that this is exactly what is not being said. And as I've pointed out, the fellow breaking the 'news' on the ctzcc.com thread asserts that 'HLS30-00016' was "...the first Z car sold to the public", so is already contradicting himself at the same time as he's ignoring - or oblivious to - the fact that such a claim is unlikely to be true. Basically - to use the local vernacular that I grew up with - the whole thing is a load of old bollocks, isn't it? Speaking as a resident of the part of "the friggin world" that isn't the USA, I'd like to offer my congratulations. I now look forward to the forlorn hope that some of this breaking news might get put into reasonable perspective, or written up on a site where the contents of the story can be analysed and critiqued by a peer group with the credentials to make sense of it all without bringing the ugly spectre of $ value into the equation, and without ignoring the fact that other markets existed and were just as valid. Dream on, I guess. The UK? That's aimed at me I suppose. Ironically I'm not thinking of the UK, I'm actually thinking of Japan, that little country that made these things, remember? More to the point in this case, I think you might be forgetting your fellow north American market sector, Canada? Since when was the north American market 'HLS30' prefixed production aimed solely and exclusively at the USA?

Matt, Don't fret about stuff like this. It's something that you can face much further down the line. Any of the major auto paint suppliers in the UK will be able to mix the exact shade from the data that they hold. All you need to do is identify the exact shade of green and its corresponding paint code number in the Nissan / Datsun paint chip cards, and they will be able to identify the formula that is its equivalent. Is the paint code sticker still present on the top of the radiator support panel ( near the bonnet prop )? If it is, it will help you - but they are often found to be illegible or removed entirely from most of the UK cars that I have seen. It could be #113 Green Metallic, #302 Green Metallic or #303 Green Metallic. You can even get a colour matched from a sample ( like a tool box lid ) these days. Don't worry about it. I think you'll have other things to face first, like re-commissioning the mechanicals. What's the chassis number, and the UK reg? For what its worth, I think - long term - this green car looks more 'honest' than that red car you didn't get. I'd rather have the green one any day...... Cheers, Alan T.

Whilst we wait with bated breath for the next instalment of the 'HLS30-00013' story.... A couple of quotes from that ctzcc.com thread have been echoing around inside my noggin for a little while since I read them, so I thought I'd ask about them here..... Apparently, 'HLS30-00013' is "...The most precious-numbered 240Z", which I find somewhat peculiar ( what about the lower numbered HLS30s? And does HS30-00013 not count? And do S30-00001~00013 and PS30-00001~00013 not count either? ), but perhaps not quite as interesting as something else I read there: "It's sister Z, VIN #16, was determined to be the earliest known commercial survivor and first Z car sold to the public (on 22Oct69, as you all know)." First of all, the "...first Z car sold to the public..." is quite obviously something quite hard to determine, seeing as the Z car physically went on sale to the general public in Japan before anywhere else ( so who knows who got theirs 'first'? ), but secondly, am I supposed to believe that somebody actually purchased 'HLS30-00016' from a showroom or dealership in the USA on 22nd October 1969? Surely any such "purchase" would be a case of somebody making a reservation and paying a deposit of some sort based on a photo and description in a sales catalogue or leaflet? Where was the actual car when this "purchase" is supposed to have taken place? Isn't this just some rather fanciful thinking and/or a tall story being taken as fact? Nissan held a 'Press Preview' event at their Ginza head office on October 18th 1969, and this would have been the first 'official' unveiling of actual cars. The first members of the 'General Public' to see the new S30-series range 'officially' would have been those who were first through the doors at the Tokyo Motor Show on 24th October 1969, and they would have been allowed to discuss / place orders for cars then - but nobody would have got to test drive one until the Press Test Drive Day on 5th November. So isn't this just some tall story telling about HLS30-00016 that is being taken as 'truth', or is this just an example of the 'Planet USA' phenomenon? What's the real story? Any volunteers? Cheers, Alan T.

Wow Carl, Super-speedy editing job on zhome.com, what!? 'The First Boat Load...' page: http://www2.zhome.com:81/History/FirstBoatload.html ... and 'Locating The Remaining 1969 Production...' page: http://www2.zhome.com:81/History/69ZArticle.html ..."Updated as of 11th Aug. 2009"

If nothing else, this thread ( and the original thread on ctzcc.com ) should be a great source of comedy quotes for some time to come. To paraphrase Colonel Kilgore, "I love the smell of hyperbole in the morning.... " ( + popcorn ).

Matt, There are several people in the UK that can help you to source and fit that kind of front spoiler. Fourways Engineering of Borough Green, Kent are one that I recommend...... But the front spoiler is going to be needed only after you have recommissioned the car to proper working order after its long slumber. I'm afraid it is inevitable that you are going to have to work hard on the fuel and hydraulic systems of the car ( you might even need to remove the fuel tank to remove any sludge in it, and the fuel lines could easily be full of rust ) and many other parts and systems will need overhaul and fettling after such a long layup. If you think I can help with data or parts ( I might have what you need, or know somebody else that does ) then please don't hesitate to get in touch. Liking the factory green, by the way. Cheers, Alan T.

This talk of a 'Datsun design centre' reminded me of this photo:

OK, thanks. I can see that now. I have to say that this press release effectively says something quite different to what Katayama is often quoted as saying around the same time, doesn't it? Did the press actually take any notice of it?! I have always found it enormously frustrating that so few people outside Japan take into account the hopes, desires and dreams of the Japanese market during that period. They talk about Japan and its manufacturers as though they were solely preoccupied by export markets ( and the north American market in particular ) when it has always been clear that keeping the Japanese market happy and competing directly with their rivals there was vitally important too. Dunn / Cheyne seem to have taken quite an intellectual approach with this. Impressive. The mention of the 'American look' is interesting, but I would go further to say that there was also a 'European look' that was a great influence in Japan, and Italian industrial design / styling in particular. There was, and still is, also the curious mirror-facing-mirror effect of designers and stylists being influenced by eachother's work regardless of origin - so you could argue that this 'American look' was influenced by Italian design, which itself was influenced by American design, and so on ad infinitum. About the Nissan / Datsun thing: Of course I can see where they are coming from ( their perspective ), but I still can't take that 'Datsun design center' quote seriously because they were not designing solely 'Datsun' labelled products there. The fact that they would have been designing cars which would wear a 'Datsun' emblem in some markets would not change the fact that it was a Nissan facility and the people working there were working for Nissan. As far as they would have been concerned, they were designing Nissans, even if some of them would have ended up wearing 'Datsun' emblems.....

A couple of comments from a "circle jerking lamer purist" ( whatever that is ): What is a "stock 1971 240Z"? It's going to mean something different for every different market and every different market model, especially the softened up and dumbed down USA market models....... Of course Nissan's engineers were using metric sizes for stabiliser bar diameters! We are not talking about Imperial sizes for plumbing here, are we? And isn't 'Auxilary' just a spelling mistake, or have you really only got one 'i'? :pirate:

That's fascinating Mike, thanks for posting it here. I love seeing stuff like that. I see the old Datsun / Nissan perspective thing going on there, with Dunn / Cheyne mentioning both. That "vast Datsun design center" was of course one of the Nissan design centres. Judging by the title page, this was for internal consumption at NMC USA rather than for press purposes, yes? Isn't that Akio YOSHIDA on the right in picture no.3?

'KPC10' and 'KPC110' were both 'short front' bodies, powered by the G18 four cylinder engine. Unusual choices. 'P' prefix denoted either the Prince-derived 'G18' SOHC four, or the Prince-derived 'S20' DOHC 24-valve six. You probably mean 'KGC10' and 'KGC110' two door pillarless 'Hard Top' bodies with L20 sixes? Hope that helps

On the big multi-day events like the old RAC, the crews would have to complete a fairly huge amount of road mileage between the timed special stages - some of it early in the morning and some fairly late at night. In circumstances like that, the chance of even a relatively short kip would probably have been most welcome. It's not actually all that noisy inside the car, and on a road section it would have been fairly civilised I think. Variously - and somewhat loosely - I've seen them referred to in period as either '240ZR' or just 'ZR' variants. You have to remember that this was internal nomenclature and not for the likes of us on the outside to understand or use. The '240ZR' name was a bit of a moving target too, as the specs of the cars it was used in reference to were changing all the time, and it was used on works rally cars as well as works circuit racing cars. The works competition department had their own numbering system for the cars, and they also used a 'Maintenace Number' ( 'Kanri Bango' in Japanese ) to identify each individual car in their system. This 'Kanri Bango' system even included the works service barges - some of which were actually pretty trick; More than one of them ended up with a full works-spec triple carbed race engine. You can usually see the original 'Kanri Bango' written on the cars in period photos. It was located on the rear valance, under the bumper on the right hand side. Some of these were actually reflective number and letter stickers. Kevin's car had a 'ZR' number hand written in chalk underneath the dash. It reads '51 ZR' - so his car was probably the 51st 'ZR' at that point...... Remembering of course that the 'ZR' nomenclature could have included PZs and PZRs, as well as more than one type of '240ZR'..... No, I'm still learning. Been digging a long time but can't see the bottom of the hole yet......

Gav, These 'early' ( pre '72 season regulation change ) works cars were put together using some of the special pressings and panels that were originally created for the 432R ( as opposed to the 432, which had 'normal' panels and pressings ). So the rear quarters, roof and other panels were thinner gauge steel than 'standard' 240Z / 432 / Fairlady Z versions, whilst some of the more structural sections ( including inner and outer sills and the box sections at the rear of the car ) were thicker gauge steel than 'normal'........ Most of the FRP panels hung on the car ( bonnet / hood, doors and tailgate ) and the acrylic windows were parts originally introduced as stock and / or 'Sports Option' parts for the 432R, although there were some subtle differences due to the special conditions and needs of stage rallying ( rear window mounting, for example ). Even the seats in the rally cars were 432R type items - although some of the works rally cars ( including '3640' ) used a special reclining seat for the navigator, which was a concession to the nature of events like the Safari and the RAC in those days. Sometimes a driver would catch some rest in the navigator's seat whilst the navigator drove a road section...... So you could argue that these early works cars were essentially 'PZR' type bodies, but using L-gata mechanicals and stamped up with series production 'HS30' and 'HLS30' prefixes and body serial numbers on their firewalls and engine bay tags. They really were quite special. Here's the engine bay tag from '3640', to illustrate:

Earliest Fairlady Z models had two different air cleaner boxes - depending on the region of Japan in which they were going to be sold ( either 'normal', or 'Winter Pack' ). If we are counting, and including Fairlady Z models, we should not forget the two 432 early versions too......

AEROQUIP 1525 in the Grey / Black colourway is pretty good. Here's a piece of 5/8" AEROQUIP 1525 laid next to a 432 radiator hose. Not too bad of a match:

Not so. Tsuchiya Mfg's 'house' colour was blue, but the orange or red airboxes / filter housings were 'specials' for certain Nissan models. Replacements sometimes came in the Tsuchiya house blue because they were not made in large enough remake batches to warrant the special Nissan paint. We have discussed this more than once on this forum in the past I think......

Hi Kats, Great photos! Thanks for posting them. SAFARI MOTORS need to do something about the engine in '4150'. It has some original components on it, but it is not the correct engine for that car. When I last saw it, it even had a 'Y70' head....... About the works rally car fuel tanks: They were not identical to the Z432-R 100 litre tanks. Essentially the works rally tanks were modified versions of the 432-R tank, as they 'cut off' the two front corners ( to give clearance / protection from damage ) and relocated the gauge sender to the top ( whereas the 432-R sender was on the side of the tank, next to the filler neck - which was vulnerable for rally use ). So the 432-R tank is more of a complete four-sided oblong when seen in overhead view, whilst 70, 71 & most 72 works rally tanks had 6 sides when viewed from above. Because of this modification, the works rally tanks actually held less than 100 litres of fuel. They had 100 litre fuel gauges that were often hand marked with a dab of white paint to indicate the max fuel level......... Part way through 1972, works rally tanks changed to bladder and foam-filled types due to regulation updates. The cars that were built with ECGI injection had 110 litre bladder tanks, and some LY-equipped cars had 120 litre tanks with outside fillers housed in a cutout box with an 'Aston' filler cap built into the tailgate area ( so that the tank could be charged without opening the tailgate ). It's never simple...... Alan T.

John, These works rally cars are a moving target for the researcher. They were made in small batches, and every batch was different due to the particular event they were intended for, the lessons learned on previous examples, and sometimes also due to regulation changes. In each batch, there was often a raft of small variations between each car - so you have to view each car on a case-by-case basis. Each one was essentially unique. Once you start digging into it you begin to realise just what a huge subject it can become....... I might start to consider writing something like a book ( or even just a 'vanity publishing' booklet ) when I start to believe I know where the bottom of the research trench is. At the moment I'm just digging ( with a spoon ) and I can't imagine that I've got anywhere near where I'd like to be! And all of the works cars are of interest to me, with the works circuit racing cars perhaps of more interest personally than the rally cars - but there's a lot of cross-over between their stories. Every time you find some new information it brings up more questions and more possibilities for research, so it is endlessly fascinating but also endlessly frustrating. Still, I'd rather it was like that than too easy. The mystery has its own appeal. Here's a single shot that might help to illustrate just what Kevn faced in rescuing '3640'. He needed to save as much as possible of the original 'shell, but some of it had already physically disappeared. The works rally cars usually had their floor drain plug holes sealed up, which had long-term consequences thus:

Hi Ian, I took photos of the car all the way through the process, so I've got hundreds if not thousands of images of the car. However, all the early ones are pre-digital camera - so I will have to choose some to scan and add to the thread. Bear with me, as I'm quite busy at the moment. Cheers, Alan T.

No, the works rally cars did not get the 'LY' crossflow heads until well into 1972, And even then it was not every car. The engine of 'TKS 33 SA 3640' is extremely original. Original block, head, crank, rods, pistons, valves, valve springs (!), cam, sump, flywheel, pulleys, manifolds, carbs, etc etc etc. All the original works parts, and quite different from those of the standard cars. Very interesting to look at in a kind of post-mortem situation, although the 'patient' was revived - Lazarus like - and seemed to have suffered no ill effects from its decades of suspended animation......