xs10shl

Looking into finishing my 1970 Z-L restoration. The upholstery in the car was not original (instead it was modified from a 240Z), so I'm starting the process of re-doing it to something more in-line with what it would have left the factory with. One detail which we are not sure of is the rocker panel covering, from below the kick-plate, under the door opening, and towards the rear. In several re-upholstered s30s, we've seen this panel be done using carpet instead of vinyl. Is carpeting the original material for this area?

Indeed. A very positive trend for the 2000GT market.

RHD 2000GTs tend to trade at a slight discount to LHD, on average.

The biggest insurance policy vintage car owners have these days is that fewer criminals know how to operate a manual transmission. That said, a roll-back defeats pretty much any/all anti-theft devices, and if someone really wants your car, they'll get it.

You've given a nice Buyer's Checklist with your thoughts on how to evaluate a 240Z to purchase. I would certainly agree that shell condition ranks near the top of any buyers checklist. Hypothetically, I'd be curious to know how you'd personally value a 240Z you were selling, which either has a period correct 5-speed swap, or a potentially even a factoy-equipped 5-speed? These two examples would of course mean different things to different buyers, so I could see wanting to mention that a "period 5-speed swap" car needs to be disclosed as "non-original". I also gather that you'd not mention a "factory-equipped 5-speed" in your listing in a car so configured, seeing that it is so far down on your own list? 😃

I'd venture to say that in a world market for mid-volume collectable cars such as an s30, rare performance options typically bring a large price premium, perhaps up to 50% more. This of course assumes that we are comparing 2 cars which are otherwise identical in condition. The price data for Zs is skewed by the fact that the available sales results overwhelmingly contains US-based sales of US-specification cars. If a #1-condition 5-speed Portuguese-delivery 240z came to market, I think that variant would command a price well north of a top-condition US-spec 240Z.

Extremely optimistic thinking on the part of this gentleman.

To be auctioned soon, apparently. https://bhauction.com/en/auction/tokyo/lots/1972-nissan-fairlady-z432r

I think you may be describing a universal truth about most marketing departments. Based on my experience, no one was better at lying about power numbers than the famous Italian Marques of the same era. There’s a pretty good reason why Lamborghini vaulted all the build sheets (with their dyno numbers) for customer cars- can you imagine the PR nightmare that would ensue when your 325BHP Miura showed 275-and-change on the factory dyno?

We're getting off into the weeds here, but since folks are talking about engines: I'd actually have to say that the most enjoyable stock setup I've driven was, surprisingly, a 1970 Fairlady Z-L, sporting an L20 married to a 5 speed. This is a package combination that's largely unknown outside of Japan. The ratios, suspension geometry, and handling just feels "fun" in a really pleasing way that i have not felt in other setups. I personally prefer it to a stock US-specification setup, and for my style of everyday driving, I think it also compares favorably to the Z432. The Z432 is indeed also fun, but in a different, more purposeful and specific way. I struggle a little bit with the S20's power band, which is less sympathetic to lazy driving. In comparison, the most "beefy" setup i've driven is my Rubello 3.1 S30 with 4-wheel disc brakes, 5 speed, and modern suspension. It's a super competent car, but if I'm being honest, it's really less fun to drive in most situations except really fast on the freeway. The best news here is that there are so many variants of s30, both stock and custom, that there's something for everyone to like. That's quite an extraordinary achievement.

Just my thoughts on displacement: when it comes to racing, I’d imagine it would be a real challenge to enter a car with a 2400cc engine into an “under 2000cc” class. Going the other way: enough displacement will usually usurp most technology advantages, which is the reason that pretty much every model of car can be made to go faster with an SBC transplant. I’d venture to say It’s probably why they have classes, rules, and regulations to begin with.

Well, it's worth what the market will pay on any given day. Probably an unrepeatable result in the near future. as I'd expect to see 5 or 6 similar examples that privateers have been holding onto for years suddenly hit the market simultaneously. And for every nice example, there's bound to be 50 clapped out examples to also hit the market, all looking to cash in. If the next 6 top cars all sell for $250K and change, then I'll re-calibrate my expectations. My personal sense it that this sale wont start such a trend, just due to the large number of vehicles out there, which should be enough supply to keep average selling prices reasonable ("reasonable" of course being a relative term). To me, it resembles the euphoria over muscle cars a few years ago, when prices skyrocketed, and then returned to earth.

Just to clarify: Watanabe's C10 GTR might even be considered inexpensive and very well bought, assuming it's superb pedigree checks out (which likely makes it eligible for pretty much any historic 2000CC-class race worldwide). As far as the restored KPGC10 street car goes - IMHO 33 Million was expensive, but, as a data point, there was a super original KPGC10 with very low miles that went for similar pricing, maybe 5 years ago, in Japan as well. The KPGC110 was the car I was primarily referring to - I have not heard or seen one sell at the 45,000,000+ level that this example achieved, but I admittedly have not been paying attention in the last few years. Perhaps interest has strengthened? Maybe this one ticked all the right boxes for the buyer.

Kats - could be a sign of positive vibes on the Japanese economy? Of note, there were a few other strong prices at the auction - the C110 GTR fetched what I'd think is a leading price. It's hard to discern condition through photos, so perhaps it was worth the price paid. I've previously seen over-the-top Yen paid for cars which are bona fide unrestored pristine examples.

Looks like about a 3-4x “R” premium over a top Z432, which seems not totally unexpected (assuming of course that the sale is real and consummated). For those with the means who have been patiently waiting for decades to own one before they die, this public auction represented a unique opportunity. If you are pushing 70+ years of age, time is suddenly short. I feel for the underbidder.

My own "theory" on the 240ZR is mostly based on my own, admittedly limited experience, and privately held understanding. Clarifications are always welcomed and appreciated. While it's true that the chassis number of a factory "ZR" does not exhibit a code signifying a "ZR" designation (that I've ever seen), one entirely significant differentiator that I'm aware of is that at least some (Most?/All?) factory "240ZR" cars will have an L24 installed in a hybrid/bespoke chassis, which for the sake of argument I'll call an "-R" chassis, because it bears a mild resemblance to the 432-R chassis - similar in some key ways, but also different in key ways. With this understanding, the presence of such an "-R" chassis in an S30 with a standard "S" or "HLS" stamped serial number would cause me (rightly or wrongly) to categorize that specific example as a "ZR". The only thing I can add is that all the factory S30 Works cars that I've ever seen - maybe 6 or so (out of perhaps 50?) - are thus configured. Works cars of course have other key bits and pieces that one would not find on a street car or privateer car. What I'm unable to speak to is whether all L24-powered cars with the before-mentioned hybrid/bespoke "-R" chassis are Works or Works-prepped cars, or whether there are genuine "ZR" cars that are rightly called so, even though they have stock S30 production chassis. This knowledge would be above my pay grade.

A sure sign the conversation is ending: a totally different car from a totally different era is presented as an alternate-use-case to whatever is currently being discussed.

I can't speak to ownership of #13, but in my experience, I've found the opposite largely to be true. Cars that were once owned by known individuals knowledgeable about the marque tend to be worth a percentage more. Cars owned by celebrities and dictators alike can be worth double. And don't get me started on the many multiples over retail that people will pay for a car that was once owned by Steve McQueen.

One might also consider that 2000cc is an important number when it comes to race eligibility. Perhaps an L24 can be stroked to add lots more horsepower than an S20, but that point is largely moot, because a car with an L24 would be ineligible to participate in an "under 2000cc" race regardless. The S20-powered car could happily compete with it's period 2000cc peers, and the L24-powered car might be thrown into a 3 liter class or larger. For a "like-for-like" 2000cc displacement, compare the L20 to the S20 as the period JDM market did, and many (perhaps most) concluded that the S20 was the better engine. That said, only 420 people concluded it was worth finding a way to pay double the list price of an S30 for a PS30, which is what makes the car so rare today.

I admire this part greatly, with perhaps a touch of envy. Keep finding rare parts such as these, and posting pictures for us.

Just based on my experience, it's almost always impossible to explain to people why I put a larger dollar value on a car like a Z432 vs, say, a stock 1970 Z, or even a modified Z with a Rubello engine. The difference between these examples happens to matter to me, but I acknowledge I'm in the super-minority. I can confirm the same arguments are heard across Marques. There are plenty of enthusiasts with a 1973 Porsche 911 who wonder why their car is only worth $50,000, while the guy with the 1973 RS can sell his for $1,000,000. Or why the guy with the 1960 Ferrari 250 PF II cabriolet sells his car for $2 million, while the guy with the 250 LWB California - nearly the exact same car, save for a few body panels- gets $14 million for his. The nerdy answer fundamentally is that there are enough marque fanatics who are students of the differences, and a select few more that have the means to insist on buying only the top-end specifications, thus creating a market spread. In the case of the Z432, there are perhaps less than 200 surviving examples to choose from, in various states of originality, so when one comes up, you either buy it, or wait (potentially a long while) for the next one.

This hasn't been my experience as to how the classic car market works. Variants affect desireability and price, and range topping models can trade for huge premiums. it's the reason why one 1970 Barracuda will sell for $35,000, and another will bring $4,000,000, thanks almost exclusively to what numbers are on the VIN. Its also the same reason why your early 1970 model brings a premium in the marketplace over a 72, and a 69 in similar condition will be worth more than both. All things being equal, and putting sentiment aside, would you trade your car straight up for a 73? For a 69? For one of the first 20 cars? Just based on what I've seen over the years, the market would value each of these trades differently, even though in this example, they are all nearly identical and special 240Zs. I'd assert that the Z432 is not a 240Z - I'm not placing judgement here on whether it's ultimately a better or worse model (we are each entitled to our own opinions, and it's been my experience that you can rarely sway any enthusiast on their opinions on ANY make and model, so I don't even try). I'm just saying they are not the same car, and I've experienced that they are traditionally not valued the same in the marketplace, which until very recently, was almost exclusively in Japan. On the face of things, valuing any make and model of old car at more than "parts value" is a silly endeavor, yet there's a ton of people, including myself, who do it all the time.

With the crash of the Yen vs the dollar over the past year, $150K for a Z432 with needs, located in Japan, feels very expensive. That said, the 69 car is of interest to me. As far as the Ameila Island Z432 goes (just talking numbers now) - typical in the Auction world, the "first through the gate" always gets the lions share of the attention and profits. Examples that follow can struggle to achieve price parity, especially for cars that trade in a thin market. That would seem to suggest that this Z432 should do well. The real indicator will be what the price of the next two or 3 examples will bring. I've always lived by the rule that a minimum of 3 well-advertised cars and published sales equals a price trend. I myself am not convinced that Amelia auction-goers will buy into the significance of the Z432, because if their unfamiliarity with it. In the United States, the 240Z is the car that people know and love, so it remains to be seen whether someone will pay 4-5X for a car which "looks" like the model they know, but isnt. And yes, I get that auctions are a global event, and not just limited to American buyers- but in Scottsdale in January, there were very vew phone bidders when compared to last year. I'm making the assumption the same will happen at Amelia. We will know more in a few weeks!

This has just been my experience, but If you follow the rules set by most agreed-value insurance companies (sparingly drive your car, store it indoors, fawn over it) then most of them will gladly insure your car for top dollar, because they make more money that way. I'd also venture to say that owners of top cars who want top dollar insurance are probably statistically less likely to put their car repeatedly in a situation where it will get damaged. This makes it an even better bet for insurers.

Von G****z