superlen

Steve, I checked out your build...nicely done and I saw the answers to the above questions. This will be a sweet 240. Lenny

Steve, I don't have any experience with the MS of course, but as you're aware I've been doing a massive amount of FI research in the last several months so feel free to ping any questions off of me. I may be be able to help/give you another perspective on the theory. For the nuts & bolts of wiring up the MS, Hybridz will have a lot of peeps who have done MS on z's. They have been down for a few days. Hacked I assume. Here's some questions/comments: (you probably know this but it's handy for others following along) Are you going to run just MAP or MAF? Map is simpler to install, but requires a little more effort in tuning & you have to re-tune if you change the engine airflow via cams, headers, intakes, ect. If MAF, on the Zfuel thread I have a pic of one I bought off EBAY. It's off Infinity Q45 and looks to be a good candidate. I'll know for sure by the time you get to your fueling additions. It's sized for a lot more maximum airflow that what we are going to flow so the resolution of the MS may not be good enough for this unit & a more appropriately sized one may be needed. If it were me, I'd just run MAP and forget any airflow sensor. You're hands on enough that I think you will want to go MAP as well and just tune yourself. I would use the Z stock coolant sensor as its already in the thermostat housing & you can enter the numbers into the table for it just as easy as a GM or Ford without the extra mechanical requirements of fitting it to the Z. BTW, I have some spare thermostat housings off the 75 and later FI cars if you need one for your 71. For IAT, I would use whatever is the easiest/cheapest to procure since you'll be customizing a mount for it anyway. Don't bury it in the manifold next to the block as it will suffer more from heat soak. I think the stock location on the EFI cars is pretty good. You'll just have to fab a mount. TB? Stock is simpler, but you'll have to make a mount to adapt an aftermarket analog TPS sensor onto the stock throttle body. Alternatively (and I would do it this way) is grab a TB from a 240sx. It has the TPS and IAT already on there & many have already adapted it to the stock intake. (If you don't have an extra EFI intake already, I have several PM me) Don't spend money on one of the aftermarket Big Mouth TBs. Our Z heads are going to limit airflow much more than the Big Mouth TBS & they won't add any HP. The stock diameter is adequate. The 240sx is a little bigger, but used are way less than the Big Mouths. On your 71 does it have the same round hole in the firewall under the clutch slave cylinder that the 75 & later have for the FI harness? (Not a useful question for your install, but I thought about it this morning as I was pulling a harness out of a donor car to setup for the AFM tests I'm doing for HellFire & your post timing was perfect). I'll be offering stock harnesses as well as the ECU, but didn't know if the early zs had the hole in the firewall. Anyhow, keep us posted on your progress. Lenny

Per grounds... Yes, the wiring harness has splices in it. I have one completely unwrapped and I have been using it for HellFire Testing. Let me know if someone wants me to trace down a wire for them. I have hacked on it some & I'm not 100% what year it was from. Within the next month, I'll need to disassemble and document better in gear up for the replacement harnesses I'll be offering so I'll have more information & a far better understanding of where the wires "physically" route at that time. @Chas I think all the NA AFMs from Z's and Zxs were calibrated the same from the factory. (there was differences in the fuel pump switch contacts and such of course, but the airflow vs voltage out is the same). The Turbo versions I *believe* have a different spring rate vs voltage output to accommodate the greater airflow. I'm just now beginning to test/understand these dynamics & I'm working from questionable starting points as to which AFMs have which calibrated numbers so if anyone has some more information on that, I would like to learn what you know. I only have three AFMs in my possesion to test/compare to each other. If anyone has any extra ones lying about, I would like to beg/borrow/steal/buy for my testing. I don't care what the condition and a good sampling of units that people think are dead or are known to be flaky would be helpful to me. PM me. - thanks. Len

Sarah, I like. Once the bluetooth module is on there, it's a no brainer to program in a code. You could also have the code expire after a certain amount of time and/or uses. When I add the module, I'll implement that. However, for now, you'll have to use one of the external inputs configured as a lock out, with a hidden toggle of course. Another thing I thought of was you have to know the secret throttle code to start. So you program in that after power up you have to see the throttle position go from idle to WOT, hold for a number of secs then back to idle, ect. Each user could program in their own pattern. While not as cool as the smart phone, it's got nostalgia going for it as it reminds me of pumping up the hitachi flat top carbs on my old 260 to get it started. I doubt I'll actually add the throttle sequence lockout, but the external input lockout is already structured in the firmware. I was just planning on it being On/off, but I could code it to look for a sequence and you could hook the input to an external button. Hmmmmm, I just realized something. With the programmable pins, if you just used pin 3 instead of pin 52 (one of the external inputs) HellFire would automatically assign the lockout function to the throttle & bingo you can do the foot pump feverishly while your date wonders what the hell you are doing as opposed to just discreetly twiddling with a button under the seat in order to get your motor running. (is it just me, or does that last sentence sound slightly dirty) :embarrass: Len

Eric, We ordered a Makerbot 5th gen just to play with. We do lots of prototype enclosures for the electronics we design. It should work well for our purpose of just testing rough fit of the electronics to opening in the housings, keypad recesses, mounting tabs, ect. We only care about prototypes before hard tooling is made. Last year we spent around $35k having SLA prototypes made. Most of that was on one project, and I wish I had just bought one then. The hard tooling for the production injection mold was of course significantly more than that. Thankfully the hard tooling cost is handled by the customer. I handle that no problem. I did something nifty on the stock wires that allows a true analog position TPS as well as Idle/Wot. Instead of running 12V out the center and measuring the WOT/IDLE with digital inputs, I ran 5V and ground out what used to be the Idle/Wot inputs & I read position back in on what used to be the +12v supply. This allows an aftermarket TPS like found on the 240 TB to be hooked up without any changes & I can read 0-100% position. The STOCK Idle/WOT still works as well because my analog signal either reads full scale a/d counts at WOT or in the weeds at IDLE. Due to some series resistors it actually reads 33% at Idle, 75% at off idle, and 100% at full scale. The adapters will be available on the store for the standard conversion parts such as the infinity MAF (or others) or the 240TB,ect. . Details to be figured out later. What I assume will happen is that as people start modifying and have needs for adapters, pigtails, or brackets, I'll help design the solution for them & then add it to the store if it looks like others could benefit from it. The AFM wires can handle the CPS and MAP, but a jumper as mentioned in the other post would have to be worked in. My design goal was to give the HellFire a tremendous amount of adaptability for those who need it without creating a nightmare for those that just need a sweet reliable & tuneable stock replacement. Len

Sarah, Pretty much yes to all you said. (man, do I get tired of saying that. ). I even have the 3d printer shipping to me next week to model some of the plastic parts and rubber molds I'm going to eventually need. We have other needs for the printer at work so I pulled the trigger on one a few weeks back. I've wanted to build something like the 123ignition disty but its farther down the road. To start with, I'll do almost exactly what you said. I haven't set any details in place as to how I will do the harness wiring for it, but will offer a plug & play harness of some sort once I get to that point. One thing I was planning was leds in place of where the stock wires would be & then fire them for grins and giggles. One thing different though was that I would just machine a 36-1 slotted wheel and use a missing tooth arrangement. This gives you better resolution & the missing tooth syncs you to Cylinder 1. That way the VR in the disty can go away. There is still some gear lash/slop in the drive gears for the disty, so it's not quite as good as a true crank trigger wheel, but it's pretty close. Wiring/installation would be easier too of course and the sensor would be self-contained/sealed rather than down at the engine crankshaft pulley in the salt/grime. I was planning on just locking the disty in one place and all timing would come from the HellFire config, but it's just as simple to twist the disty as it is to change a number for the static timing, maybe even more so. Good ideas all around, and thanks for the input/feedback. Len

This is doable with the stock harness with some caveats. They would be connected like this: MAP -> stock AFM Wiper wire. TPS -> stock TPS, (I can read stock switch or analog TPS with ZERO changes to wire or plug - How cool is that!) CHT -> stock CHT IAC (Idle Air Control) have to find an IAC to plumb in yourself, but the wire going to the AAR comes from the ecu in the stock harness so we can use it to control it. I thought ahead and already have the PWM output available to this wire. On the stock ECU this wire is grounded & serves as the power GND for the AAR. My assumption is that Bosch thought at some point in the future they may try to control this as well. CPS (crank position sensor). This one using the stock harness is not straightforward, but not impossible. We need a wire and we need a connection to the CPS input circuit. The wire could be the AFM REF wire since it is already very close to the front of the engine, but this wire only runs to the analog inputs inside HellFire, it normally does not connect to the CPS input circuit. The user would have to jumper it over either outside in the harness near the case(easier for most) or internal to HellFire (more difficult, but cleaner looking install). When I re-spin the board and release the Hybrid I will add some jumpers internal to make this easier. Len

Thanks for all the remarks, everyone. Phar.. pretty much everything you said is in the works. Here's a few quick notes & I'll respond later with more details, and feel free to ask more questions. The AFM plug as three wires for three analog channels available. IAT, the AFM signal itself, and the AFM ref signal. The old ECU need the reference as the AFM was fed with unregulated +12. I feed it a regulated voltage so the REF signal is now available to use for anything the user wants in the engine bay. My instinct is that wideband o2 is the most useful. External MAP would be another choice as the external sensor mounted in the intake is better than a vaccum line to the onboard. In that case, the onboard MAP turns into constant BARO measurement. If you run a MAF instead of the AFM, it will just run on the AFM Wiper signal. (For testing, I"m going to have a MAF and AFM in series - MAF on the now available AFM ref singal. BTW, Having the pins mappable via the GUI is way freakin' handy for me testing.) I'll check out the MAF number you noted. I bought one from ebay that's off an Infinity that is easily obtainable and inexpensive. It's rated for a lot more flow so I need to verify my sensitivity at stock Z air flow is not down in the weeds. I have up to 16bits of a/d resolution so we should be fine. The thermotime switch and CSV are completely external to the ECU so those wires don't help much. The AAR actually has a wire that runs back to the ECU but it's to a pin that's missing on the stock connectors. I will also be offering turn key new replacement harnesses, stock of course, plus pre-configured wiring solutions for a MAF setup, ignition, ect. The pre-configured will also be part of a Stage Kit where you get the ECU, Harness, sensors, ect. I don't have any details mapped out, but that's the plan. I have some ideas/schemes for Auto AFM calibration that are similar to what you mentioned. To start with, I'm just tweaking numbers by hand. I also will implement a histogram of AFM readings which over X number of cycles will pinpoint any dead spots. Then I'll just "fix" those for the user & try to heal an AFM that otherwise works great, but has only one tiny spot. I've thought a bit about a smart/creative way to determine the sequential pattern. I have some ideas, but truthfully it's low down on the list. Sequential has an advantage for better idling, but the amount of time I'll need to put in to try to auto-detect the sequential I just don't have right now. If someone wants sequential, they will need the Hybrid version and run with a trigger wheel (either in the disty or on the crank). I do have inputs for vehicle speed. If the user adds a sensor that has digital ouput, HellFire Classic is fine & they can use one of the four spare inputs. If you have a reluctor type input, they will need the Hybrid. The Zx has the same connector, but different pinout. I'll offer one for that engine immediately after the s30s are taken care of. The software will be almost identical. The only difference is the board dimension and the pinout. Note: The same goes for most any L-Jet equipped vehicle. They all need to be retrofitted to HellFire Equipped! As for MS. I have no experience with that system at all & I have tried to refrain from learning much about it so that my design stays fresh. I want HellFire to be a great system for what I believe the end user wants, and what the users (primarily from this forum) have indicated they want. It's hard to do any research of course without running into MS info, and the two system will share a lot of common features (as well as any other standalone EMS for that matter) just because they are both engine management systems. For all the math involved and massive software/firmware labor, basic engine control boils down to measure airflow - calculate fuel - spray fuel. As for interpreting their stuff, it's easier for me to just work from scratch. Then it will be right...or wrong.....then right. One of the auxillary inputs can be used for a master reset if someone really wanted this, but I'm not designing a system that needs to be rebooted...EVER! At least, that's the goal. An EMS that needs that feature is someone scary. I realize that in the MS world with homebrew builds, 2 layer non shielded pcbs, board hacks, and DIY changes & DB25 connectors, ect. ect. that a FailSafe option is much more needed & warranted. With HellFire being more of just a production plug and play, the need for that failsafe should be much less. Still, I concede you have a valid point and I can easily add a selection in the drop down to do a failsafe boot via one of the external inputs. I do know I'll need it during testing. Actually, it's kind of already implmented. You can select between multiple tunes stored, such as tune1, tune2, ect. The gui can select of course, but I had considered an external toggle to switch between the two. I was thinking one for performance, one for emissions, one for the teenage son borrow the car for prom. Ok, enough for now. Thanks so much for your feedback. That is what I need to make the system as good as it can be. Len

Just a quick update. I had a good morning testing HellFire. After getting some hardware kinks sorted out, I ran the stock system while HellFire ran in a slave mode just monitoring the system but not controlling the injectors. I was able to compare my pulsewidths to the stock system....all looked pretty good. I then swapped out the stock ECU, plugged in HellFire and it cranked right up and idled nicely. WOOT! WOOT! Actually it idled better than the stock unit as the stock unit is running way rich for some reason. (AFM needs calibrated I'm sure) HellFire ran rich too until I adjusted the numbers on the AFM calibration some. I was able to run the RPMs up and keep adjusting the AFM calibration curve and after 10 min was able to have a pretty good reving engine. There is still a lot of tuning to do & firmware to add for enrichments, but today was a good indication that things were working as they should & I was very happy with the results. Sadly, the impending 3" of sleet that was falling cut my day short. Len

Got sidetracked today helping a friend fix his daughter's Camry so didn't do any altitude testing. I had just connected both HellFire and the stock ECU to my z and was doing pulse width comparisons & troubleshooting one of my circuits when he called. (Insert Homer Simpson "Dohhhh!") I'll try and spend some time tomorrow on it, but I've got a lot going on so I'm not making any promises. I have to chase my circuit issue down, hookup my wideband O2 that came in, and clear out a hole in the shop for a 10' long 1912 18" swing SouthBend lathe that I traded for last year. It shows up Monday. Luckily I get to get rid of some machinery as well, but it's still a net floor space loss. It's looking like an all day Tetris game with 2000lb machines. Len

Mike, That's the wires that would go to your Altitude switch under the dash if you had one. I'll be out in the shop fouling plugs with HellFire today, so I'll try and play with that circuit on the stock ecu and look at the outputs on the scope. Lenny

mjr Also I saw your note on the AAR above. The HellFire alone won't magically fix your AAR issues. I have an idle air valve control output on the HellFire Hybrid, but it's not plug and play by any means. We will have to find an aftermarket Idle Air valve that will have to be retro-fitted in place of the AAR with the associated wiring & air line plumbing. I do have some nifty ideas about this, but it won't be ready for the initial release. BTW, my plan is just to use my foot for the extra air needed to warm up the engine. Len

The altitude will make you run rich not lean. There is less O2 in the air that is sucked in, but the ECU doesn't know this...so it just dumps fuel thinking there is more O2 than you have, thus a richer mixture. The AFM doesn't have an altitude switch, it's on the ECU. I think most all ECUs had the altitude circuitry its just that they didn't mount the external bellows/switch. Since you are at 9000, you could easily find the two wires hanging out under the dash (usually two 6" ish white wires coming from the harness right near the ecu connector) & you could be the altitude switch. See if you have those & I'll double check what I'm telling you to do, but I think it's as simple as just connecting those two together and you will lean your mixture a tad. Lenny

Willoughby, There are plans for an Android App, and I have a connector on the pcb to install a Bluetooth module. These plans are down the road & won't be on my work radar until the end of the summer at the earliest, but I have thought about it. I have some Android development coming up at work in the near future so when I'm finished with that, I'll start on the HellFire interface then. Len

mjr Sarah is right in that the missing pins are NOTHING to be concerned about & in fact the extra pins are not connected internally whatsoever in the ECU you have that has all the pins. I've not been able to pin down and production date/lot number on which ecus have all the pins and which only have the necessary ones. Bosch, I'm sure for cost savings, had AMP custom make the connector with the pins missing. My theory is occasionally they couldn't get the custom part and went with the stock AMP part number which of course had all of them. Or maybe they had different sub-contractors or facilities making them and each facility chose the easiest to get connector??? For whatever reason, it's hit or miss...at least for the Z cars. As for which #'d ECUs run which cars, there is a list of what year models had which ECU numbers, but it remains to be seen as what the internal differences were between the ECU numbers. I'm sure there were differences, but they are minor in such a way that ANY ecu from those years will run ANY of the cars. Now, will one year model ECU run another years engine a little lean/rich? Possibly, but they have all drifted so far that who knows. If you took two brand new ECUs from different years, could you tell a difference? I don't know for sure. One question I have is when you were testing did you go back and forth between the ECUs to confirm rich with A, normal with B, rich with A, normal with B? I'm assuming you didn't do that to confirm, but I'm guessing your test would be highly repeatable & is another piece of evidence showing how they ECU can run the car, but run it rich because of drift. Good information that you're uncovering. Len

Well...lets hope stoichiometric & lean. 10-4 on the numbers. Len

Thanks, Once I get a full screen of them on there, I'll post another pic. For testing I'll have them everywhere & silly things such as three/four methods of airflow prediction MAF, MAP, AFM, Alpha-N. Assuming I don't get confused, it ought to be quite fun. Len

gr, I think the next step might be to investigate your AFM. Blue has a good writeup on them on his site. If you pop the cover off you can play around with it while the car is idling and see the effects of tightening/loosening the spring. You don't really do anything with the spring while it's running, just move the vane a little more/less with your finger simulating more/less airflow in the engine. If you are indeed to rich, you should hear the engine RPMs raise a bit when you move the vane a little less than what the actual air is making it swing open, simulating less air flowing in the engine. This would collaborate your rich assumption as by playing with the AFM you're telling the ECU to dump less fuel. Lenny

Inquiring minds update. Didn't get much done in the shop this weekend, which was killing me as the weather was perfect. However, I did put up a nice fence around the pool. It went like this...drill hole in concrete, think about acceleration tables, drill hole in concrete, think about AFM calibration, ect. ect. However, this evening I began cleaning up the virtual dash. The first pass virtual dash was functional and proved the architecture but was very lacking in coolness and polish. (I believe the first pass was shown earlier in the thread) There is still much to do on this part of HellTune, such as full skinability but for now I just created a few simple styles to choose from. Here's an example of what they will look like. A Grey/Silver one A Gold Skin A Tan one For those interested in how they were created. I first used photoshop to create the image of the dial that I can play with face gradients & bezels. Then I save out the skin (just the dial face with NO number/tickmarks, nothing other than the blank face & bezel) as a .bmp. HellTune then uses the single skin.bmp for all the gauges drawn. Big, small, medium, all the gauges sizes use the same base bitmap, and then I draw whichever sensor ID I want on the face using a gauge definition. The definition defines the number of ticks, min,max, needle color ect. As I mentioned, it needs a more attention & I have to add more gauge definitions but it works well now and is fun to see work on the bench with the ECU sending me live data. Note: By exposing the definition in the form of a simple text file, the virtual dash does in fact become somewhat skinnable, although it might be a bit cumbersome & not "WYSIWYG". Len

Andrew. I do plan on having something similar to "Stages" & a nice writeup on the pros/cons of each. I posted a quick overview of this on the Zfuel thread. For me, personally. I can't wait to ditch that cold start valve/AAR and all the associated plumbing. The AFM would be right behind it & like you run with MAP. Lenny

Thanks, Mike. We have some nice weather this weekend, so I hope to make another video. Len

Live? You have a Z Car...look at all that room back there. You might have to work a bit to squeeze a sofa in though. Len

Captain!!!! I was just logging in to PM you. How's the valve surgery holding on the wifemobile? Yes. I needed a "bit" more to do between the hours or midnight and 6! Last night it was cloud server software (day job..in theory) that will translate nicely to the HellFire website. Lenny

mgood. I like 'Inferno'...its sounds like infernal too which makes me think "Am I ever going to finish this Infernal software???" Len

CG, Thanks for the great writeup/cover of your rebuild. Rebuilds take a ton of time, and the fact that you took extra time to document for us is appreciated. I wish I would have seen the thread earlier and followed along. Lenny