Captain Obvious

I got no beef here. I just thought the whole thing was a little weird... Out of the blue, mousemedic resurrects a year and a half old thread and posts incorrect information about 260's when the original thread wasn't even about 260's in the first place. ??? I wasn't going to add anything more after my original post unless mousemedic came back and asked a question. I was expecting the whole thing to go back to sleep. I just didn't want it to go back to sleep on an incorrect note. I suspect that detailed discussion about the 74 temp switch in a "1976 water temperature switch" thread is likely to get passed by in the future. Probably best suited to a different thread with a more appropriate title. Sorry. Yes, I did. It's because you asked no questions questing. It was all statements stating. But if you're questing, I'm no expert, but I'm happy to do what I can to provide clarity and knowledge: The 74 manual is admittedly obtuse when it comes to the temp switch. I've found the switch is described in multiple sections "functionally" instead of all in one place showing all the things the switch does. The only single source that I've found that shows everything in the same spot is the wiring diagram itself. The 74 switch is open circuit when cool (below 77 degrees F) and closes when warm (above 88-106 degrees F). It has two connections, one to ground, and the other to the "EGR Relay". When the switch warms up, it energizes the coil of that relay. Note that different years switches operate differently. On the wiring diagram, the water temp switch and the EGR Relay that it controls are both in the lower left corner. Note that there's a grounding mistake on the black wire from the temp switch (missing dot) on the diagram - Nothing connected to the temp switch would even work at all if the car were actually wired as it's drawn. The driver's side turn signal and marker lamp wouldn't work either. The EGR Relay has two sets of contacts. The N/C contacts start closed (when the engine is cool) and go open when the engine warms up which enables the EGR system. The N/O contacts start open (when the engine is cool) and go closed when the engine warms up which (on the automatic transmission cars only) switches the ignition timing from advanced to retarded. The manual transmission cars have all the same wiring to the ignition module, but use a different ignition module that ignores the timing change signal. I do not believe there are any other connections on the wiring diagram to anything involved with the temp switch and/or the relay that it controls. In other words, I believe the ignition timing and EGR functions are the only two things that the temp switch can possibly affect. All 74's used the water temp switch, not just the auto transmission versions. On the manual's it was used to control the EGR function. On the auto's it was used to control ignition timing, and the EGR function. If you were to use a manual trans ignition module on your auto car, your timing would be fixed to the advanced pickup. If you have a manual trans car and have removed the EGR valve, then the water temp switch and the EGR relay are both doing absolutely nothing. As before, I'm no expert, but I'm pretty comfortable with the 74 and the temp switch. I've been through the manual, I've studied the wiring diagram, I've tested the switch, I've tested the relay, I've redrawn the whole circuit in a form that makes more sense to me... And even after all that, it's still certainly conceivable that I've missed something and I'd be happy to hear about it.

I've got no problem with that page except that it isn't the whole story. There's more to it than that. Take a look at EC-16 and you'll see that the same switch and the same relay also controls the EGR function. And that EGR control happens on every 260 regardless of what transmission it has. Still not sure? Study the wiring diagram. It's there too.

I don't know where he got his info from, but the way it's stated it's not correct. All 74's used the water temp switch, not just the auto transmission versions. On the manual's it was used to control the EGR function. On the auto's it was used to control ignition timing, and the EGR function. Maybe it's a language issue in the way it's being described? Switch a few words around and look what happens... Incorrect - "The automatic only used the temp switch to switch pickups in the distributor." (the auto used it for more than just this) Correct - "Only the automatic used the temp switch to control ignition timing." (OK since the manual trans cars didn't change ignition timing based on temperature). "The temp. switch is used only in 260Z with the automatic trans." is incorrect on multiple levels since not only did all 74's use it, but on the automatic trans versions it was used for more than just ignition timing. All good?

Thinking about it? Sure. Am I going to go through with it? Probably not until I have a real reason to. My stock ignition seems to be working as intended, and I've got so many other things that need attention that I probably won't poke that hornets nest until I have a good reason to. That's a good price you've got there though....

That is not correct. All the 260's use the temp switch regardless of the transmission type.

Something else I did a little different was my pump installation procedure. After I was done with the priming process, I pulled the pump out, dumped most of the oil out of it, and while it was mostly empty, put the drive shaft into the pump, aligned the shaft punch mark with the oil hole, stuffed the shaft and pump up into the engine, used one bolt to hold it loosely in place, and verified that the distributor drive tab was where it belonged. So far, other than putting the pump in mostly empty, everything is by the book: And then here's where I veered a little from tradition. I clipped a small pair of vice-grips onto the distributor end of the drive shaft and used some masking tape to hold them temporarily into place. This allowed me to pull the pump back out without the drive shaft coming with it: Why? Two reasons. 1) Because the pump alone without the shaft is smaller and easier to handle. Less risk of dumping out my priming oil, and 2) Because now I could put a little gasket sealer on the pump gaskets and not have to mess with getting the distributor shaft in the right orientation. I didn't want to smoosh the gasket sealer, only to find that I had to pull the pump out again because the dist drive wasn't in the right spot. It went like this: I pulled the pump again after clipping on the vice-grips, gooped the mating surfaces with sealer, refilled the pump to almost the top with oil, stuffed it back up into the engine for the final time, in and tightened all the bolts. Only other detail to keep in mind is that you cannot rotate the pump internals during this process or the tab on the driveshaft won't line up with the pump slot. Just pour oil into both sides of the pump, but don't rotate the internal gear and rotor. One last thing I forgot to explain why the first thing I did was take the pump apart, and it goes like this... I did a little searching for Melling pump topics on the Z forums, and there are threads on both zcar.com and hybridz that indicated it would be a good idea to check the pump end clearances before installation. Members jeffp, Pyro, WangsMan seem to be the ones most involved, and here are some of the threads I found: http://www.zcar.com/70-83_tech_discussion_forum/cast_iron_oil_pump_689487.msg1279920.html http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/88729-truth-on-l6-oil-pumps http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/61680-kameari-high-performance-oil-pump-worth-it So anyway, I took the pump apart, deburred all the razor sharp machined corners (pet peeve), lapped the mating surfaces to check for high spots, and checked the end clearance. Lapping the mating surfaces highlighted that there was some metal upset when Melling pressed in the two locator pins, and once that was ground flat, the rest of surfaces were good. And for the end play, I measured .002 cold, so I think I should be OK. Also for posterity, the thickness of the Melling gasket, and came up with .006 thickness. Then I measured the Datsun gasket from my old worn out pump, and it is .004 thick.

Yup. Unfortunately, it means installing the pump without it's drive shaft, priming the system, and than pulling the pump again to reinstall it's drive shaft. It's a pain, but effective. Here's my oil pump replacement: http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/thread45302-2.html

Sweet. I'm now always skeptical about the stock spray bars after what I've seen on a few.

Blue, Did you verify your cam oiling looks proper? siteunseen, Those are good healthy streams you got there... What were you using to spin the pump, or is that just the starter motor turning things?

Your fuel rail looks correct 74 to me. Your carbs and balance tubes, however, came from 70-72. And, yes... most of your emissions parts have been removed. The vacuum hose that comes from the front carb and T's to the distributor and the charcoal canister is correct. That's what it's supposed to do. So what hose it that you want more info on? Can you take a pic?

Thanks for the info on the cradle. Forgot to ask before... Does the engine on that cradle have an oil pan installed?

I've got the scan from XenonS30, but I'll snatch a copy of yours if it's cleaner. Do you think it's worth the bandwidth if I already have one?

I looked in all the FSM's for guidance on how to install both the bushings and the washers, and didn't find any pics with enough detail to be 100% certain of direction of either of them. I put the thick side of the bushings (with the rounded corners) on the side which contacted the body because that's where the rod is supposed to pivot. If you picture what this thing does in application, the rod will swivel up and down at that point when the wheel moves up and down over bumps, etc. The receiving cups welded to the frame of the car are cupped on the inside as well to accept the bushings. The rounded corners seemed to me to dictate "I'll fit nice into the cups on the frame and will rotate at this point". And the washers I installed like all shock absorber and sway bar washers I've messed with in the past... With the concave portion facing inward towards the bushings. Lastly, I compared the whole installation to a 74 260 which I'm pretty sure has never had any work done to that portion of the suspension and it seemed they had the thinner portion away from the frame. I can't be 100% absolutely positive that's the way the 260 came from the factory, but the car was in the family since the early eighty's and I doubt the bushings needed any attention prior to that point.

One of my tension/compression rod nuts fell off somewhere and I lost some parts on the road. While inspecting the other arm (the one that didn't fall apart by itself), I discovered that I only had one correct large washer (out of four), and the other smaller washers looked suspect as well. I also did a little searching here on the site and found that the recommended configuration is poly up front, but rubber in back to lower the stress on the rod. After a bunch of searching, I turned up P/N 45G25036 bushing kit from AC Delco that is very nice and not only includes rubber bushing, but includes all the washers and nuts for one complete side. The washers are high quality, and the bushings are well made. I would recommend this kit if you are looking for rubber bushings. I would also recommend this kit if you simply need the washers or the spacers. AC Delco calls it a "BUSHING,FRT LWR CONT ARM ROD INSL" or a "Strut Rod Kit" Rock Auto calls it a "Shock Absorber Bushing" Shows up on Amazon as a "Pitman Arm Kit" Here's what I started with: Here's the bushing kits. One per side: Here's the washer and bushing configuration: Ready to go back on the car: I know that this is old hat for most of you, but it was my first time, and I was really impressed with the quality of that kit for such a low price.

Thanks much. Doesn't have to be too detailed. He's pretty handy with his table saw. Just something that I can point him to and say "Something kinda like this". I'm going to be helping with the engine pull, and I'm going to be lobbying for a pull with the tranny attached, so whatever "dolly" he comes up with will have to account for the trans as well, but in any event, the overall concept is still the same.

Engine looks beautiful. Hey, do me a favor? As mundane as it sounds, would you please take a pic of the wooden support that your motor is sitting on once you lift the motor up and off? I've got a buddy who's going to pull the motor out of his Z and stuff it to the back of his garage for maybe a year. I suggested he build a little wooden structure like what you've got there and put a set of heavy duty casters on the bottom so he could roll it around the garage if he needed to. Lift the motor out of the car and set down on a rolling frame made out of wood? And then... I see your pic with something similar to what I suggested to him!! :bulb: Yeah, I know... "A talking frog? Now THAT'S cool!"

And you type faster that me!!

Haha! Excellent! I wish you speedy delivery! 280~Master, Have you got any pics of this?

Aren't you worried that your arms will get tired if you try to lift it that long?

Exactly. In fact, I was eyeing up the one on my daily driver, and it looks very similar to the Toyota one you just posted. I was going to go to a junkyard today and poke around to see if I couldn't find something that looked like it would be an easy mount, but it was just too darn hot. I figure I can wait a day or two more. And.... As an added bonus, I believe the one on my DD uses a servo to move the valve, so I might be able to kill two birds with one trip to the yard. Once it's a little cooler.

Thanks Jim. I was thinking about a servo controlled valve in the future and that kit looks like it would be a very simple install. Neat stuff. But for now, I just want to drive the darn thing before it starts snowing again! Would you believe this heater project started with tension/compression rod bushings? And Blue, I know you're only half kidding because you know the story. The valve itself wasn't blasted on the outside (like so many other parts), but I wonder what has worked it's way to the interior through coolant circulation.

I've got a non-A/C system now, and one of the things that I DO like about it is that there's no vacuum control of anything... It's all cables. Still not a great system, but at least I don't have to deal with vacuum actuators and a bundle of old cracking vacuum hoses. At this point, fiddling to keep the temp right would be a huge improvement for me. My heat is always full on. I bought the car last winter, and it wasn't much of a problem then, but now that it's summer, it's a problem! My top priority right now is to get some sort of cable actuated valve in there, and beyond that I'm imagining improvements to the original system. Just not right now. If I come up with a valve substitution, I'll be sure to let you know.

Haha!! I just read the exact same page not more than five minutes ago!! Yeah, I found some info on people that rebuild the valves, and yes... Mine could sure use the help. But if I'm right about the function of the capillary, then I could live without it. At least unless I heat the core so hot that my air box bursts into flames! :eek: I'm thinking that any mechanical valve that I can manage to stuff in there will work. I would really like to relocate the valve to the engine compartment so I don't ever have to mess that deep into the dashboard ever again. This whole thing started out trying to figure out why my air always blew hot regardless of the temp control lever. Now I've got the whole interior torn out and I don't know how the scope this project has managed to spiral so far out of control.

I took the capillary device off the rest of the valve today and added heat again. Now that it doesn't have the pressure of the valve's spring pressing against the little plunger tip, the tip did extend a little when I heated the coil. However, it was compressible back with finger force. Also, when I was done, there was a tiny bit of some kind of liquid seeping out around the plunger tip. Not much... Only seen under magnification, but there was something coming out. I stand by the theory that it's an upper-temp limiting device, and I believe it is supposed to be filled with some kind of liquid. I suspect some of my liquid has leaked out over the years and the resulting bubble is compressible which renders the device useless in application. So nobody has ever seen any documentation as to the function and/or purpose of this thing? I'm the only one curious enough to look into it? Ever??

I'm pretty sure it's hollow. I didn't cut it open, but there's a blob of solder at the end of the coil that resides inside the air box. I assume that solder is to seal the end. It would be difficult to convince me that they could get any useful info through that thing if it was simply conduction through a solid wire. Not impossible, but difficult.