Carl Beck

Hi Go240Zags (everyone): Believe it or not.. I'll get this discussion back to at least DATSUN and 240-Z's, even while keeping it associated with Spokane, Washington! Don't want to hijack the thread, but traffic is slow... First... all 240-Z's came with lap belts and shoulder belts. Both being required by the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS). In the Series I, 1970/71 model years the two had individual buckles. One for the lap belt and another for the shoulder belt. From the Series II "Late Model 1971" and forward model years, the shoulder belt hooked onto the seat belt's male side of the buckle. As you mentioned and I am told - one can use the retracting mechanism from the 280Z 2+2, although I've never done it. I happen to like the manually adjustable types far better. Meanwhile, back in Spokane, Washington.... Yes, I know Paul. I actually purchased my first 240-Z in March of 1970 from Valley Datsun. Paul Jaremko sold it to me.... that is a long side story in and of itself... I had been at the local Porsche Dealer trying to trade my 67 911S in on a 1970 911E..... we couldn't get together on the price (they wanted to give me next to nothing for my 911 and they wanted top dollar for theirs..). I also had a 1955 Ford Thunderbird at the time. So as I was on my way back to Fairchild AFB... I happened to pass Valley Datsun and they happened to have a silver 240-Z in the showroom window. It was late in the day and I thought they were closed, so I turned around and went back to look in the showroom windows. I had never seen one before and wondered what it was... whatever it was, it was beautiful!! As I peered in, Paul came out of his office, saw me standing there... and motioned for me to come to the side door. He let me in.... and to make a very long story short... I bought that car. HLS30 001777. Being assigned to the 92nd Bomb Wing of the Strategic Air Command... in 1970... my 240-Z sat 6 months in the hangers at Fairchild, as the Wing rotated overseas... six months in SEA then six months in the States... While in the States, Paul and I went auto-crossing on the weekends etc... and I wound up selling DATSUNS for him evenings and weekends...(while off-duty at the base). When I was finally discharged from the service, I took a job as New and Used Car Sales Manager at Jaremko Motors (downtown store). I am proud to say that Paul and I were friends, and still are to this day. He and his entire family are typical of the people that make you proud to be an American. At the auto-crosses, no one could beat Paul. I don't know if you know it, but Paul Jaremko won Nissan their First SCCA Regional Championship in 1964. Paul completed 14 successive victories in a DATSUN SPL310. (as mentioned in John B. Rae's book on the History of Nissan USA). Fred and Pauline, Paul's parents, were among Mr. Katayama's first supporters and first Authorized DATSUN Dealers on the West Coast. Their Daughter and her husband owned the Dealership in Cor de'Lane, Idaho (Boudrey Motors) (spl??). So what does all this have to do with seat belts and shoulder belts in the 240-Z? If it wasn't for those very early Dealers and racers.. we would never have seen the DATSUN 240-Z by 1970. I still have the 1972 DATSUN 240-Z that I bought from Paul, at Valley Datsun at the end of 71. For that matter I still have a son that was born in Spokane in 73. Spokane is a town located in a beautiful area of the Country and it's filled with wonderful people. ( I just couldn't take the Winters and the Space Program was located here in Florida... so by 73 it was time to move). FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Ron: Ah.. gee, I wish you hadn't reminded me. One of the top 240-Z drivers in C-Production lost the SCCA Championship Run-off's at Mid-Ohio a few years ago... when it turned humid, started to rain and he then realized that his defrosters didn't work... he realized it even more as the second place car passed him to finish in first place... as he struggled to wipe the windshield so he could see... he had the defrosters working for the next season... (wish I could think of his name...) FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Go240Zags: If you were around the "Bubble Inn" between 69 and 73... then you would have at least mentioned Bing Crosby in the same breath as Gonzaga High School and Gonzaga University .... yes/no? Was it "Goofy's" that had the hot spiced wine in the Winter... anyway there was nothing else in the country like "Gonzaga Girls" back then.. and I enjoyed every minute of them... ;-) FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Guys: How about a real Ferrari... for $65K USD. http://adcache.collectorcartraderonline.com/10/7/1/76809171.htm The 365GTC/4 (four cam).. was picked as one of the Best of the Decade by one of the car mags. a few months back (where the 365GTB, was followed by the DATSUN 240-Z as First and Second for the 70's). For about $65K USD, you could buy one of the new Brock Daytona Coupes.. the replica's of the Shelby Cobra Daytona Coupe designed by Peter Brock. Under the Heading of Misleading: "HE ORIGINAL 250GTO SELLS FOR AROUND $3M USD AND I BELIEVE THERE ARE*ONLY 8 LEFT IN THE WORLD" All 49 originally built are accounted for...as far as I used to know, when I followed such things, all are still in existence. None were ever convertibles either. No doubt it was a fun project for someone to build... and it might bring around $10K to $12K USD if the right buyer could be reached... but I agree that this guy is simply dreaming. There was a GTO Kit conversion going on at one of the local Z Car Speciality Shops. It was there for many years ... but it had a real Ferrari V12, duplicate GTO Dash etc etc. - you had to look a little closer to realize it wasn't real.. wonder if the guy ever completed it..(de Elegance Z Shop here in Clearwater).. I think this owner simply wanted to get pictures of his car on-line. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Chris Wrote: >Carl, >I disagree with you. I thought we were talking about #1 car values >and your example is not a #1 car. No matter. Hi Chris (everyone): I numbered my examples, only so that they could be referred back to, later in that Post. Didn't mean to indicate that the example I numbered #1, inferred a #1 Condition car (it certainly wasn't written that way, with stone chips and door dings etc.). Everything I put in the example numbered "1", would apply to the green Z in the URL with the exception of slightly higher mileage and California rather than AZ car. (of course it sold for slightly less also). >Chris continued: >I also disagree with you about Black Pearls being sold without the stripes. I would of course be interested to know the basis for your disagreement. I can only tell you that I was at the Datsun Dealership here in Clearwater, when friends of mine working there at the time, were attempting to install the strip kits from the Sport Appearance Package (SAP) on one of the Black Pearls they received. >If what you say is correct, then ZCCA rules would indicate that the stripes > as a dealer installed feature would not be stock. Same apply for the ZZap? Are you sitting down?.... Not only were the stripe kits installed (or screwed up) at the Dealership - the entire Sport Appearance Package was. That included not only the stripe kits, but the Racing Mirrors and the Rear Sun Shade. Even more shocking, you may find the fact that not all Black Pearl Edition 280-Zs came with the SAP. Some had only the $90.00 Black Pearl Paint option (thus were sold with no strips, no racing mirrors, no rear sun shade). I put a copy of the Dealer Notification Sheet/PR Release and a copy of a window sticker for a Black Pearl on the Z Car Home Page a few years ago. http://zhome.com/History/BlackP.htm If your interpretation of the ZCCA rules were correct.. ie. that anything "installed by the Dealer" would not be considered "stock" -then the carpets and hubcaps aren't stock either, as they also came packed in the cargo area and also had to be "installed" by the Dealer. Nissan Motors Inc. USA put the SAP kit together here in the USA. The Shade Kit, which also included the Racing Mirrors was produced here in the USA and sold as a separate item over the parts counter, likewise the racing mirrors could be purchased individually (starting back in 72). The ZZAP-Zzzz decal package was produced here in the USA and I'm pretty sure installed by Distribution And Auto Services Inc. (DAS) at the Port of Los Angeles. They did the 79 280ZX-R package as well, along with many other "specials" (decal packages and special paint schemes) for the North American Market... such as the NFL Team promotional cars. Nissan Port Operations and DAS played a major role in the factory distribution process set up to provide the end customer with the cars they wanted, where they wanted them here in the USA. I think that for the ZCCA to be consistent in their definition of "stock"... they would have to say that stock is defined as; as the car and all items included by Nissan, arrived at the Authorized Dealer. BTW -- DAS installed "Port" A/C for example in the 260Z and 280Z's. The quickest way to tell the difference between Port A/C and the A/C installed at the factory in Japan, was to look at the fan speed selector switch in the dash. The Port A/C had a 3 spd. fan while the A/C installed in Japan had a 4sp. fan. And where did that "Black Pearl" paint come from you may ask?... a spray booth at the Port????..... no, no, no tell me that can't be true...!! FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Ricksaia: In that case, that's what I would do... it's easy enough to swap in the original engine. It would make the car far easier to resell and getting the full value of the car in stock condition, would be well worth the time and effort to swap in the original engine. While you have the L28 out, you can refresh the engine compartment as well. Then you could resell the L28 as well.

ZRush wrote: >....snipped.. >.....Beautiful Z but looks like just another black Z. I would never have >known the BP unless I saw the paint code..... Hi Vicki (everyone): Sometimes, people get so much money wrapped in a restoration, they fear doing anything that might reduced it's future resale value. In that case, retaining a set of Original OEM strips for that Black Pearl might not be too bad an idea. The people on the Black Pearl Register got together and had the strip kits reproduced, in that case I'm with you. I would have bought one of the reproduction sets, and put them on the car. Of course some people just don't like pin stripping on the Z's. In 1978 when the Black Pearls came out... many customers didn't want the strip kits installed. In other cases, the detail guys at the dealerships simply screwed up the strips when trying to apply them.. so the car was sold without the strips to begin with. It is the "Paint Code" (and the paint of course) that make it a Black Pearl.. the First Black Z Car Produced by Nissan... it was a test market for the 1979/80 280ZX model line up... to see if Americans would buy a Black Z. Of course they did, and of course we saw "Black Gold" ad.'s for the 280ZX's... So if you see a 1978 280Z with the Black Pearl paint... it's not just another black Z.. it is the first Z offered in Black and it was fairly limited in the numbers produced. ( I think there were something close to 1000 painted Black Pearl). FWIW, Carl

Chris Wrote: >I think your #1 description sounds more like the "high retail" and >"good to excellent" condition. In that case, I would refer you to >the Wall Street Journal and NADA guides. A 1970 model year with >only 57,000 miles would be well past the $15,000 point. Just look >at what happened to Burt's car. Hi Chris (everyone): With stone chips, door dings and 57K miles...? No. Nice as it is, that's a #3 Car.. Burts car has 14K original miles plus hours of detailing... it's a #2 car that with farther detail changes could be a #1 car. Here's one with slightly more miles...of course it's sold.. @$7,500.00. the new owner and his wife are VERY happy with this Z. See: http://ZHome.com/Adelle/CalZGreen.htm >In my opinion, "here's the original engine sitting on the floor over here" >has no value at all. Maybe tempting value, but parts in a box have no >value to the sale of a car. I think there is a difference between "parts in a box"... and having or not having the original matching number engine in a Classic Car. My point was also that having the engine (out of the car) would not "increase the value", but rather prevent the value from plummeting.... I would agree with Jerry... and that's the advice I give to people when they ask.. spare parts should be sold as "Parts For Sale".. and not thrown in with the car. At the time, as you point out, the parts thrown in with the car really have no significant value to the car buyer.. he is really interested in the Price of the Car. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi ricksaia / everyone: I think the answer is that it won't be worth less, whereas it would be worth less if you didn't have the original engine. Just how much less depends on the overall condition of your Z to begin with. #1......Let's say that you had a 1970 DATSUN 240-Z. It's a one owner car with a known history. Bought and kept in AZ (Arizona is very dry)... it is completely rust free, never wrecked with 57K miles. It's Silver, no cracks in the dash, interior all but perfect.. Always maintained in top condition, you could get in it and drive to New York without a problem. (all hoses and belts are less than two years old, the brakes and clutch are fine etc.). There are only a couple very small stone chips and a couple of very minor door dings, but the paint is bright and shinny, as is all chrome. The frame rails are straight and rust free, as are the floorboards... That car would sell easily for $8,500.00 to $9,500.00 today (slightly less in California). It might take a couple of weeks, or even a couple of months to locate the right buyer... but he/she is out there now looking for this car. One might put an asking price of closer to $10,500.00 as someone might even pay that... #2.......Now let's say you have that same car... with the exception that you have an L28 in place of the original matching number engine... and you no longer have the engine. Now it is a $4,500.00 car... The people that buy Collectable Classic Cars... simply will not buy a car that is no longer capable of being "Restored". They will pay top money for one that is... and they will simply pass on anything that isn't. The person that will buy the car without it's original engine, is the person that simply wants a nice 240-Z to drive, to take to local club meetings/gatherings. The person that loves the 240-Z's but has no desire to ever "Restore" one... Or the person that wants a nice car to modify... These people will usually not be willing to pay anything close to $9,500.00 for a project car or a daily driver. Actually this car is too nice for them... unless they can steal it. #3......Now same car, only with the original engine not installed but available... Good running L28, 5spd. and R200 presently installed ...$5,500.00 to $6,500.00. $2000.00 deduction for taking the risk that the original L24 won't need to be rebuilt along with the work to reinstall it. The other difference is... you can sell #1 fairly quickly, you can sell #3 for slightly less money and it will take more time to sell. #2 will take the longest time to sell.... unless you lower the price. Now lets say that with "YOUR" car, you didn't keep it a factory color, you have a dash cover, the carpet is shot, the seats need to be redone... but it has a pretty paint job (which doesn't match the paint under the hood) and it runs well. Let's also say that it has a bit of bondo where the rust used to be, including the floorboards!!.. it needs a few mechanical details taken care of... and the chassis has about 190K miles on it.... it really won't matter a lot if you have the original engine or not. Just what I see in the market... Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http;//ZHome.com

Carl S. Wrote: >Does ANYONE have a "build sheet" for a Z Car? I have never seen , >nor heard of anyone who did. It is my belief that they simply do not exist. >Just because Chebby or Ford provided them doesn't mean that Nissan did. Hi Carl / everyone: I'd phrase it; "Chevy, Ford and others provide build sheets because their assembly line workers need to know what "factory options" should be installed on the car they are building. At the Dealerships, the New Car Sales Managers ordered cars from the factory, equipped certain ways for their inventory (depending upon what sold best in their locations) and they Special Ordered cars at their customers directions. Because the DATSUN 240-Z's for the North American Market had no factory options, there was no need for a "build sheet" for each individual car. The 240-Z's were most likely built following a daily or weekly Production Order. The Production Orders would specify the number of cars, the color of the cars (and therefore the color of the interiors installed), how many cars got standard transmissions and later how many got A/T's. The Production Orders would allow the assembly lines to be supplied with the needed parts... (so many white interiors, so many black interiors - so much white paint, so much red paint, so much gold paint etc. etc.). FWIW, Carl B.

gnosez wrote: >As an off-shoot for those wondering how a Nissan restored 240Z would >fair in a judged car show where ZCCA rules apply, an inquiry has gone >out to the individuals responsible for determining the rules for ZCCA's >"stock" class to see what they say about "resto-mod" or whatever you >want to call these 240s. I imagine it will take a few weeks to get a ruling >from this group of people but I will post it as soon as I hear. Hi Gnosez /everyone: A "Stock" 240-Z, A Modified 240-Z and a Vintage Z are three entirely different categories. I seriously doubt anyone that knew anything about the Marque would put any of them in the same category for a seriously Judged Competition. Secondly, the ZCCA depends to a large extent on the financial sponsorship of Nissan Motors. They would not be foolish enough to put Vintage Z's in the common classes of "Stock" nor "Modified" cars. The Vintage Z Program Cars are an Automotive Historic Milestone themselves and therefore will always be of more interest to the public and the serious collectors. Five years from now, there will most likely be 1000 Very High Quality Modified 240-Z's around, a 100 Pure Stock 240-Z's and 1 Vintage Z. Maybe the numbers are 4000, 400 and 40... Whatever the absolute number.. the ratio's well be about that.. Enthusiasts are always drawn to examples of the Marque that offer something more interesting in terms of their history. Cars owned by famous people, famous competition cars, factory specials etc. are simply "SHOWN"... they usually don't even compete in the normal Show Car Categories. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Jerry / everyone: I'm not sure what happened to the Values on the NADA Web Site... However, looking back over the years, the NADA CPI Book has changed their "Definition of Categories" at least more than once. In 1989 their reported "HIGH" values were NOT for 100 Point Show Cars... In 1998 their reported "Excellent" values would seem to indicate that they are for 100 Point Show Cars. There Web Site... seems to return to their earlier definitions of categories.. ie "High" values are NOT for 100 Point Show Cars... Also notice their remarks related to data collection and "projecting values" in 1998... which wasn't there in 1989. Below are the remarks and definitions as published 1998 and 1998 (taken from books I kept). NADA Cars of Particular Interest (CPI) Value Guide: 1989 to 1991 Editors Remarks: The sources of data are auctions, dealer sales reports, market letters, club newsletters, CPI make and model surveys by questionnaires and other sources regarded as reliable. The market data is recorded and processed with the aid of computers employing editing processes which are standard in the industry. Definition of Categories: CPI does not assign condition categories to the column headings because values generally move in small increments and there are seldom well defined points which indicate condition. In a general sense, the LOW value represents an intact and functioning automobile which can be restored at reasonable cost. The AVERAGE value in indicative of a clean, front-line ready automobile. The HIGH value is representative of a car which requires nothing. It may be a show car, but not a 100 Point car. There are some cars in CPI which are rarely, if ever, driven, but most cars are assumed to be driven. = = = = = = = = = 1998 Editors Remarks: The sources of data are auctions, dealer sales reports, market letters, club newsletters, CPI make and model surveys by questionnaires and other sources regarded as reliable. The market data above is analyzed by CPI editorial staff and values are projected for the next edition. Definition of Categories: FAIR: Presentable condition. Runs and Drives and will pass a safety inspection. May be driven on a daily basis. Generally in need of a cosmetic restoration, but not a ""basket case". There are many cars on the road that fall below CPI Fair category, and well be priced accordingly. These are commonly referred to as "beaters", and are usually not worth restoring, as the restoration costs will usually all most certainly exceed the value of the finished vehicle. GOOD: Very nice condition. In fact most casual observers would describe the vehicle as "excellent". Good Cars show very little wear and are driven sparingly. Many are used as weekend drivers. Many older restorations fall into this category. EXCELLENT: Nearly perfect condition. The vehicle has usually been professionally restored to the current highest standards, but a few exceptionally well cared for original cars may qualify. All components are original or are an exact replacement. Most excellent cars are not driven more than a few miles per year, if at all. There are vehicles, usually due to an interesting history or special circumstance, which will sell for more than CPI's "excellent" figure, but these are extremely rare and would require extensive documentation. == = = = = = = = = Current Remarks on the Web Page: Definitions Of Categories: Low Retail Value This vehicle would be in mechanically functional condition, needing only minor reconditioning. The exterior paint, trim, and interior would show normal wear, needing only minor reconditioning. May also be a deteriorated restoration or a very poor amateur restoration. Most usable "as-is". Note: This value does not represent a "parts car". Average Retail Value This vehicle would be in good condition overall. It could be an older restoration or a well-maintained original vehicle. Completely operable. The exterior paint, trim, and mechanics are presentable and serviceable inside and out. A "20-footer". High Retail Value This vehicle would be in excellent condition overall. It could be a completely restored or an extremely well maintained original vehicle showing very minimal wear. The exterior paint, trim, and mechanics are not in need of reconditioning. The interior would be in excellent condition. Note: This value does not represent a "100 Point" or "# 1" vehicle *. * "100 Point" or "# 1" vehicle is not driven. It would generally be in a museum or transported in an enclosed trailer to concourse judging and car shows. This type of car would be stored in a climate-regulated facility. ========= End Quote = = = = = = BTW - Jan/Feb/March, 1998 CPI VALUES 240-Z For 1970 240Z: Fair: $2100.00 Good: $3750.00 Excellent: $7500.00 For 71-73 240Z: Fair $1900.00 Good: $3400.00 Excellent: $6800.00 For What It's Worth, given their Web Site Definitions of "High Retail".... there are some cars sold in that condition for $14K.... most are closer to $16K.. Given the 100 Point definition... $18K to $24K would be closer today IMHO. Super rare examples are even higher.. Carl

Hi Guys: If you look at the Vintage Air Web Site, you will see that they specialize in supplying the Street Rod and Custom Car markets (huge here in the US) They do build standard systems for commonly used Street Rod bodies ... They also offer a broad range of custom designed evaporators/heaters from which one can select the size/shape needed for custom applications. I'd say they go far beyond offering just a universal product, although one could nonetheless call it that. Their SuperCooler III hooks directly to the three existing outlets in the Dash.. I just unplugged the existing ducting from the OEM unit and stuck it back on the SuperCooler's three outlets. The Supercooler also has two outlets for the defroster vents.. I used the OEM holes for the heater hoses as well. I used the same mounting points for the SuperCooler, as were used for the OEM heater and aftermarket A/C kit. I did have to make a couple of strap hangers out of simple flat stock. You can get the SuperCooler with all electronic controls.. Of course when you remove the OEM system, the levers and cables that control it are also removed. (this also leaves more room for your radio/stereo) The weakness of the system is that it is a recirculate only system. Unlike the OEM systems in most cars today, you have no fresh air intake. Likewise you have to seal off the fresh air intake of the OEM Vent system... up under the dash. (the original aftermarket kits were also "recirculate only") I will say that given the number of small cars on the market today, all with great OEM systems installed in very limited space ... if one had the time to search, I'm sure that a typical Honda Sedan or Toyota Sedan would yield an evaporator/heater combination that could easily be retrofit into a 240-Z. Once you get into it, you see that it's really not a big job to do the installation of the components yourself. While the Vintage Air SuperCooler IIi puts out about twice the air flow of the original aftermarket systems, and it does cool the car here in Florida on 100+ F degree days... It still doesn't hold a candle to the A/C systems in my old 88 Chevy Pick-up. One of the main reasons being that the Factory systems are designed to introduce fresh air, and are therefore designed with far more total cooling capacity. Half the battle however is preventing the loss of cold air, while preventing as much heat absorption into the cabin as possible to begin with. Heavy window tinting, good body seals and floorboard insulation all have to be as good as possible. If you park the 240-Z out in the sun all day, due to the large glass area the interior becomes a huge heat sink and any system will have a hard time overcoming that heat load. If I were doing it again.. I might redesign the center console so cold air outlets could be supplied at the rear of the front seats. Just to get the heat out of the rear deck area quicker. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Doug /everyone : In 1970, in the SCCA's C-Production Class, "aerodynamic devices" were not allowed to be added to the production cars. (this was a Production Class after-all). Peter Brock devised an air "spoiler" for the radiator combined with a brake cooling scoop" for the BRE 240-Z's that were being raced by BRE Racing. He told the SCCA's tech. inspectors that for the brake cooling ducts to work they had to scoop cool air in from the front of the car. No sir, that's not an "aerodynamic device", it is simply an air spoiler and scoop for cooling air for the radiator and front brakes. (allowed at the time under SCCA's rules). This was born the BRE Front Spook. (spoiler + scoop). Of course the fact that the Spook all but cancels the 140 lbs. of lift generated by the Z's body design at 70 mph, by adding 105 lbs of downforce was simply .... uh... a side benefit... ;-). The rear spoiler was a factory production part and thus allowed under SCCA's rules at the time. Although not "standard equipment" for the North American models, it was standard equipment on the Euro. Spec. Models (as was the 5spd which was also used in SCCA C-Production). The rear spoiler adds 75 lbs of downforce to the rear wheels and thus cancels the 20 lbs of lift at 70 mph on the stock car, and 35 lbs of lift at the rear with a front Spook installed.(adding downforce to the front of the car, pushes the rear up.. thus 35lbs. of lift at the rear with the front Spook installed). FWIW Carl Any 240Z driven on the highway really should have a Spook!

Hi Andrew /everyone: The Vintage Air unit actually sits higher under the dash than the old kits did. When I installed mine a couple years ago - Vintage Air didn't have the fully electronic controls they do now. So I simply make a replacement finisher panel for the center of the dash - with larger air outlets and no levers from the OEM system. If you remind me a few days from now - I'll try to get you some pictures.. It certainly doesn't look "stock"... but you might be able to retain the stock look with the new controls (you could put them in the glove box for example). What one really needs - for an A/C system that REALLY WORKS.. is to pipe cold air to the rear hatch area. With the present systems it is very hard to get good circulation of the air behind the seats... and that is where a lot of the HOT air is. If you park your car out in the sun... it's very difficult to get it cooled back down in less than half hour.. (where most modern OEM systems will cool a hot car down in minutes). E-mail me a reminder in a few days.. cbeck@becksystems.com FWIW, Carl

Hi Gee: Everyone has different expectations ... but the A/C in the 260Z works in just an OK manor here. It certainly isn't nearly a capable as any modern factory system. As I understand it, the Courtesy system is basically the same as the original add-on kits, with the exception of using a more modern rotary style compressor and being R-134a ready. Some people have told me they are satisfied with it... I guess it all depends on your local needs/expectations. FWIW, Carl

Hi Gee: I live in Florida, USA. It gets hot and humid here. I've been driving Datsun 240-Z's now for the past 35 years. As I got older, the desire for really good A/C got stronger and stronger. The aftermarket A/C kits designed in the early 70's and sold though the DATSUN Dealers was about the worst A/C I've ever had in a car. In my opinion it was more a "Sales Tool" than anything else. The Datsun Dealers simply wanted to be able to say "Yes", when ask if the 240-Z could be equipped with Air Conditioning. The after-market kit really did a very poor job of cooling the car, as compared to any standard A/C system on GM, Ford or Chrysler automobiles of the same period. Putting one of the old after-market A/C kits in the 240-Z is a waste of time and money as far as I am concerned. As someone pointed out earlier, the evaporator in that system is placed ahead of the OEM heater/Vent system. So the OEM fan has to suck air through the evaporator, then blow it through to the OEM heater/vent system Given that the OEM fan can't move enough air to begin with, and the old ducting leaks air everywhere - an inadequate system is farther degenerated. Cooling a 240-Z is a major job to begin with. The cars as designed, have very little insulation and leak air like a sieve. On top of that, the hatch back design creates a huge greenhouse, within which the air heats to super high temperatures. The "Factory A/C" systems that came in our late 260Z's and 280Z's was a vast improvement over the after-mark kits for the 240-Z's. But they will not fit in a 240-Z unless you change the entire dash. The dash in the our 260/280Z's was actually an inch or two deeper, so the Factory A/C evaporator would fit behind it. (it won't fit behind the 240-Z dash) There is only one solution as far as I am concerned. Take the entire OEM heater/vent system out and throw it away. Then go to" Vintage Air" and buy one of their SuperCoolers. This approach however, will not leave your car's dash looking pure stock. (you have to eliminate the OEM heater/vent control levers). http://vintageair.com/ The Vintage Air SuperCooler has both the heater core and the A/C Evaporator in a single compact box. Then air is blown through the system (so if it leaks, it leaks cold air out via the OEM duct work. The Vintage Air Super Cooler is also available with all electronic controls. You can use the 260/280/280ZX A/C Compressor mounting bracket to mount a newer style rotary compressor from those models. With the Vntage Air system you would also want to upgrade your alternator... the Vintage Air Fan draws massive amounts of current.. but it moves massive amounts of air also. If you are planning on using R-134a...(and you should).. then you want to make sure that every component in the system you set up is designed specifically for that gas. (don't let people tell you it doesn't matter). The molecular size of R-134a is smaller than the old R-12. So you have to have a condenser and evaporator with tubes of a smaller diameter. That is so that the molecules of the R-134a stay in direct contact with the metal of the tubes, and thus conduct the heat to the outside and the cold to the inside of the car. Compression fittings that used to retain R-12, will leak R-134a. For a R-134a system you have to use "0-ring" type fittings. As I recall, when it was all said and done.. I think I spent something close to $1,200.00 on all the parts (new everything). I used the OEM 280Z/280ZX compressor (Hitachi). It is possible to mount a far less expensive compressor if you can find or have made the necessary mounting brackets. I am happy to report that I finally have an A/C system in my 240-Z that will actually cool the car down on a hot day!! FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Jerry // everyone: In your opening remarks to this thread, you said: "Now I know there are enthusiasts and there are purists, and their perspectives will be different on this subject. I would like to change all our perspectives on this subject, even if ever so slightly. In the context that that we usually hear the term "Purists"; as in "the Purists"... It seems to be a reference to a fanatically motivated, although small group, of individuals who insist on forcing their gospel on the Classic Car Community they happen to be in. They don't hesitate preaching fire and brimstone to anyone publicly, if the unwashed dare to modify a sacred Classic. Like all fanatics, the Purists really enjoy getting in your face and under your skin, while at the same time failing completely to comprehend the true meaning of the Gospels Of Restoration. Having properly identified and defined them above, let's set that group aside for the minute, for they are "False Purists". The "True Purist" is really a wonderful combination of subject knowledge, artistic ability, perseverance and perfectionism. The True Purist is our most honest historian, working tirelessly on uncovering the true origins of our marque.... ie. "as it left the factory". The True Purist can be found grouped within one or several categories of automotive enthusiasts. He might actually be a "restorer of classic cars" or a "Collector of Classic Cars". The True Purist might simply be one who first performs exhaustive research and then writes about the marque. In many cases the True Purist may be a combination of all these or none. One doesn't have to "own" a 100 Point Concours Example, nor even to "build" one. The True Purist may simply be a person who has only a driving thirst for knowledge related to the subject of our affections. One who appreciates possessing ever deeper and finer, especially if little known, facts about the how the cars were built in the first place. The fact is, the True Purist and the Enthusiasts are one and the same. The True Purists will appreciate your Classic, no matter where it falls on the continuum from 100 Point Concours Original to Beautifully Modified. The True Purists will always appreciate "Cinderella" and disdain a "Frankenstein Monster". What makes a True Purists different from the average enthusiast? The True Purists will know in fine detail, the difference between the two. Preservation is the first step to restoration. With kind regards to the True Purists among you. Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Chris wrote: >...snipped....... "This number may have been the number of cars Nissan actually bought." Hi Chris (everyone): Having been in direct communications with with the buyer for the Vintage Z Program, while he was buying... I can tell you with certainty that he was finding it all but impossible to buy more than around 45 cars, for the $3,500.00 budgeted. I did send him leads as they came in and I did try to get him to buy HLS30 000240 for the "charity" car ... Nissan didn't want to spend the $8,500.00 that the owner wanted for that car. I'd guess that the number of 150 was based on indicated demand. The initial price that Nissan put on the cars was around $23,995.00. At that price point there was a pretty quick and strong interest from buyers. FWIW Carl

Hi Chris / everyone: I have updated the Vintage Z Register... There is a hyper-link to pictures of each car on the Register now. There is a list of the Original Z-Car Stores also hyper-linked The Vintage Z Register Is Now linked on the Z Car Home Page http://ZHome.com The Direct URL Is: http://zhome.com/IZCC/ZRegisters/Vintage/VintageZ.htm We are now looking for input of Vintage Z's not on the Register... if you know of one, e-mail me the information at: beck@becksystems.com I'll also be Posting a note to the "big list", to see if we can reach more Vintage Z Owners. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Este: I'm with Carl S on this one... I've never found anything as good a Kroil. The downside is you have to order it - and wait for it to come. At least no one around here carries it in stock. www.kanolabs.com They make several variations, for specific uses.. I'd try to aerosol AEROKROIL (most likely later you'll be ordering it in bulk). They also put out a useful newsletter.. sign up for that, lots of good tips there as well. I usually look in the Parts Manuals first - to see how things come apart. All most all the views are Exploded Views that show every nut and bolt. Mike used to sell the Parts Manuals on CD-ROM, I don't know if he still does or not. If not Courtesy Nissan sell them. www.courtesyparts.com FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Chris (everyone): Just wanted to point out... as you mentioned earlier.. at least some of the Vintage Z's did not get their original matching number engines back. Note on the Register at least one of them got an L28. (now that's an upgrade!!). Also .. are those the VIN's with Automatic Transmissions that you have as well? Could be A/T equipped cars were less expensive to buy, when Nissan was buying them... or it could be that in general terms the 240Z's with A/T were driven and cared for more carefully. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com beck@becksystems.com

Hello Chris (everyone): Per an earlier discussion related to collecting the VIN's of the Vintage Z's. I've set up a Vintage Z Register on the Z Car Home Page... I have listed the VIN's I've collected so far, if anyone knows of others not listed there... please send as much information as you can. Or if you have additional information about the cars listed please send that as well. With "usual" Registers, it is the owners that register their cars. As we are just trying to get this started, and gather as many of the VIN's as possible, we will start by "reporting" Vintage Z's we have seen either in person or on the net. So far, I only know two of the owners... the rest are VIN's from cars listed on ebay with pictures of their dash plaques or other documentation. In each case I've listed the source of the information. If it's useful, at a later time - I may link the VINs to the ebay listings so people can see the descriptions that the owners/sellers provided. If anyone has kept a copy of the ebay page source.. to retain that information about a car you have recorded.. send it along with the other information and we'll add it to the database. The direct URL Is: http://Zhome.com/IZCC/ZRegisters/VintageZ.htm At least this way we can all see what we have collected to this point. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com beck@becksystems.com

Hi Chris: Today at 7:13AM you wrote: >.."Thanks for the "Mad Mike" letter. Would you please highlight the passages that >refer to a discussion about buying up old Zs, refurbishing them, and selling them back >to the public again? I just can't find it. >Sounds like he had a good time though. So let me get this straight. He "threatened >to make house calls" and that constitutes representation?" Truth is stranger than fiction... I'd say that when the opportunity came about...Mike went to Nissan HQ and represented the ZCCA in the discussions with Mr. Hanawa. Although not planed far in advance, although not as formally structured as Mr. K's quote would indicate... I'd say yes.. what Mad Mike did on that day constitutes representation (at least of the people that elected him Executive Director of the ZCCA). The Mad Mike involvement was first brought up - because you quoted Mr. K saying "a representative from the American clubs was sent to Tokyo to plead with Nissan to revive the Z"... At that point there was nothing said about the Vintage Z Program... other than highlighting the events that took place prior to 97, and which lead up to the Programs Birth... Mr. K's full statement ties the "representation" directly to the events that lead up to the Vintage Z Program - does it not? My point was - related to Mr. K's statement and your questions about that statement... 1. Mike wasn't actually "sent" there as his trip report reflects... 2. who he represented.. when the chance arose ie. ZCCA and its members and 3. Who he met with when he was there.. (the man who would the following year become President of Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan). Chris wrote again today: >"Yes I AM 25% sure Mike had something to do with it." I have to admit that I'm very confused by that statement at this time. What/which ""it" you are referring to? There is no question that Mike and his visit to Mr. K in Japan in 95... is the person and the event that Mr. K is talking about in that quote. Yes/No.. or as I ask before, is there someone else that says differently? If you are referring to "it" being the Vintage Z Project... I have no idea what all, if anything, Mad Mike had to do directly with the Vintage Z Project. Other than, like all of us at the time, indirectly just trying to support the concept and the program while it was evolving at Nissan... Chris wrote: >"And finally...Carl, if I am stepping on toes, just tell me and I'll sit down and shut up. >Is Pete going to write a book, or was that just more talk? It has been six years." Well as you can see from his farewell letter.. he seems to have been planning on writing a book then; and from the letter he wrote me the other day.. which I read to you.. he seems to be in the process of writing his book now. I told him that you were putting together an article about the Vintage Z's and ask him if he'd be willing to share some information with us, I have not received his reply yet. I don't see your efforts as stepping on anyone's toes. If anything articles related to the subject, should just stimulate interest and help future sales of his book... yes/no? Other than discussions like this one... where else do we see anything being published that would lead to more interest? >Otherwise, I am not into writing adversarial posts claiming my story is right >and your story is wrong. Does "my story" mean Chris and "your story" mean Carl? Or is that a general statement? I don't feel anything has been "adversarial".... we have been back and forth on a couple of points... like the Mad Mike thing... but I wonder at times if I have made my points clear enough; because when you reiterate them in your own words... it leaves me with the impression that there is still great confusion there... Your statement today, >"please highlight the passages that refer to a discussion about buying up >old Zs, refurbishing them, and selling them back to the public again? >I just can't find it. leaves me with the impression that there is still confusion between background information, which Mr. K tied to the Vintage Z Program, with his statement (which you quoted).. with the expectation that it is meant to be proof of the conception point of the Vintage Z Project.... Just wanted to make sure that you understood - and that everyone following along understood - no one ever said that the representative talking to Mr. Hanawa, suggested anything other than saving the Z for America and Nissan Motors. That started the ball rolling or at least accelerated it a bit after Atlanta. Buying up cars came a couple of years later...so I am surprised that you would be looking for it in Mikes report, or that you think I said it would be there... nonetheless, the Vintage Z might not have happened at all, if the groundwork hadn't been done years before hand. I think we both agree that the story leading up to the concept of the Vintage Z's is as important to understanding their significants, as the story of how they were repurchased, reconditioned and resold... FWIW Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

halz wrote: >I've tried to keep up with the dialogue in this thread. It seems to me that >the "Factory Restored Zs" should more accurately be termed "Nissan Motor >Corporation USA - supported restoration program". Hi halz: That might be more accurate.. and I'd say that if that's what you want to call them that, I'm sure we'll all understand what cars you are talking about. You might shorten that to "Nissan Vintage Z Program Cars", or shorter still "Nissan Vintage Z's"... Wait a minute... no, on second thought, if we call them "Nissan Vintage Z's" or "Nissan Vintage Z Program Cars"... that might be misleading. Someone would think that Nissan Motors owns them. "Nissan Motor Corporation USA - supported restoration program" might be misleading too. In most places Nissan seems to have called them "reconditioned".... they weren't really restored (meaning to make as original again). >I'm not sure if Nissan actually does manufacture vehicles in a factory in the >USA. Now you can be sure. Nissan has several factories that produce cars and trucks here. They just built a multi Billion Dollar assembly facility for their full size trucks and SUV's here as well. As I recall the build the Altma's here, and some production was exported to Japan. >- they certainly didn't make the Z-series there That's for sure... of course "they" ("they" being your reference to Nissan Motors Ltd.) didn't make them in Japan either. Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan, didn't actually build the car in the first place. Nissan Motors Ltd. did the design, the engineering, the distribution, sales and marketing... but they did not produce the car. The Z's were produced by a subcontractor. Shin Nikkoku Kogyo Co., Ltd was started in 1949 to build rail road cars AIR. It formed an alliance with Nissan Motors Ltd. in 1951, it became a publicly traded corporation in 1961. The company name was changed to Nissan Shatai Koki Co., Ltd in 1962. It began production of the Z Car in Oct. 1969. The company name was changed again in 1971 to Nissan Shatai Co., Ltd. It is a publicly held corporation, not a wholly owned subsidiary of Nissan Motors Ltd. (as Nissan Motors USA is). FWIW, Carl