Carl Beck

Carl S wrote: >People seem to think that because we are discussing this now (in >2005) that the desire for things like a 5 speed wasn't known at the >time the 240Z arrived on these shores. That's not the case. It was >often discussed in trade magazines, and at race events by >enthusiasts as well. Also, I wonder what was the percentage of >Manual Transmission equipped 240Z's v.s Automatic Transmission >equipped 240Z's? 50/50? 60/40? 70/30? Maybe 40/60? (I don't think >so, but I really don't know) You sure don't find many of them (Auto >Trans Z's) around these days. The Auto trans seemed to be more >accepted in the 280Z, 2+2, and ZX models. Hello Carl. You are of course correct, there were enthusiasts that wanted a 5spd. and of course, finding nothing else wrong with the 240-Z the automotive magazines writers did have to say something negative (just to appear balanced). Although I thought that the cheap diamond patterned vinyl provided them with something negative to say If the enthusiast wanted a 5spd. he had only to tell his Dealer. It was easily ordered through the Parts Dept. and easily installed by the Service Dept. A brand new 5spd. cost $375.00 in 1970/73. (of course you could change the gear sets as well). If you were poor.. you went to the junkyard and got one out of the 2000 roadster, then purchased the parts necessary to convert it to the Z from Datsun Competition and installed it yourself.) I know several of people that did that.... most simply changed the rear gear. Nonetheless the 240-Z really was aimed at a far larger market as you suggest. The 240Z was by design a "Sports/GT", not a pure "Sports Car" in the more British sense of the term. Nor was it strictly a "Grand Touring Car"... It was by design a well balanced combination of the two, that was intended to have far broader appeal than either individually. The 240-Z was aimed at putting traditionally American "non sports car buyers".. into their first Sports/GT. Mr. K didn't want to just capture market share in the Sports Car market.. he really wanted to greatly expand the market, to include new buyers. Mr. K wanted to sell Sports/GT's to people that had never bought them before. Most Americans didn't buy the traditional Sports Cars because they were for the most part underpowered, harsh riding and cramped. Coming from Great Britain, Italy and Germany they did not enjoy a reputation for quality nor reliability. They were all but strictly "enthusiast's" cars. The 240-Z was also aimed at gaining market share in the "Second Family Car" market here in the US. Much the same as many compact cars were at the time from the Big Three. You didn't "Sell" the "compacts" from Ford, GM, Chrysler as "Family Cars" (at least that was not how they trained you to sell them) ... you sold them as Second cars for the family. Believe me, I sold a ton of 240-Z's rationalized as the perfect second car for the family.. The 240-Z offered more "utility" than any mere sports car of the era.. and as much utility as a Pinto or Vega (hatch backs).. 95% of their time driving, Mom or Dad were in the car by themselves anyway, so a two passenger car made perfect sense as a second car. (please sign right here ...). Features and the benefits of them, had to be rationalized in the buyers mind, before they would sign on the dotted line... The 240-Z was loaded with features and benefits that made it easy to rationalize as the second family car. (a side benefit was it was COOL... and BEAUTIFUL...a more Positive Image for the driver and it offered Datsun reliability) Since I sold these cars for a couple years.. I can only tell you about our Customers... Most (75% or more) had never even considered buying a "Sports Car" before they saw the 240-Z.. they simply liked the looks of the 240-Z and it was in the price range of other cars they were looking at. Of our 151 Z Car Original Owners... only about 32 of them had owned a Sports Car before... The Z was everything the traditional sports car weren't. The Z was roomy, rode well on it's fully independent suspension, was powerful and smooth, and it had Datsun's reputation for reliability. We received maybe one out of 20 240-Z's with A/T... I don't know if that was typical or not. But it seemed to be. A few people simply had spouses that refused to drive a stick shift... so the compromise was the Z with an A/T. I do not recall any of my customers wishing for a 5spd. (some of the people I raced or autoX'ed with did). Carl S wrote: >It carved out it's own niche in the market largely from Baby Boomers who were >coming of age, had no children, and wanted something exciting and different. >They were disatisfied with the quality and style and range of products from >Detroit. A lot of us (in that demographic) already had manual trans equipped >cars and considered them desirable. In a general sense I'd agree that the Baby Boomers were an important segment. More so for the influence they had on their parents. However, by it's original definition the Baby Boomers were born between 1948 and 1956..Now it seems to be defined as 1946 to 1962.. In 1970 the oldest Baby Boomer was 24 and not quite yet out of College.. or just out looking for a first job. They were also just the tip of the iceberg for the huge swelling of the population to follow. From 1970 to 1973 they really weren't that large a segment of the buyers. Most of the people that I sold 240-Z's too were between the ages of 28 to 38. Most(when I say most here I mean at least 80%) were married, most had at least one child. The vast majority had above average incomes, in the professions or trades (school teachers, engineers, architects, carpenters, draftsmen, contractors, small business owners etc.). I was 25 at the time, and I can tell you that I sold very few 240-Z's to people my age. Most people my age were buying 510's, 1200's and Pick-up's. (all below $2,500.00). For the most part my buyers were simply looking for something "special" to reward themselves with, while still making a rational purchase. I'd say that 95+% of them never raced, never auto-crossed, never used their Z as a "Sports Car". (just as 95+% of SUV never leave the paved highways). I would certainly agree that they were dissatisfied with the offering from Detroit at the time and they were looking for something "different". Carl S wrote: >I don't really think that tarriffs had much to do with the ability of Japanese >auto imports to compete in North America." You are correct. In 1970/73 there were no tariffs on Japanese automobiles coming into the US. Protective tariffs were common in Europe, carried over from the reconstruction after WW-II. A tariff was later placed on "commercial vehicles".. which caught the Pick-up (so they were simply shipped without their bed, then "assembled in the USA") Carl S wrote: >Another interesting point is that about the time Mr. K left the USA was when >the Z cars began to morph into larger, more cushy "American" styled cars. Actually, the same process of market research that lead to the 240-Z for the US, also lead to the 280ZX for the US. While you and I didn't like it as much... the 280ZX sat new sales records. The Z evolved with the generation of people that originally purchased it. As they got older, the feedback they gave Nissan was that they wanted more luxury (power windows, power steering, cruise and GOOD A/C)... The mistake that Nissan made was not coming to market with another car that the younger generation wanted... to keep them in the Datsun/Nissan fold. Of course the other mistake was to change the Brand Name at the same time... da.... I personally believe that if Mr. K had stayed in the US, those major mistakes would not have been made by Nissan. Carl S wrote: >I do agree with the statement that......."When you're selling an item with a 6 >month wait, you can literally produce what you want and the demand will snap it >up." I'd phrase that somewhat differently to reflect the actual situation. "When you're selling an item with a 6 month wait, you ARE producing what the customers want.. don't screw with it!! anyway, just my perspectives... kind regards, Carl B.

Hi Kats (everyone): First let me say that from memory only... I recall replacing the smaller OEM Oil Pressure Sending Units (25240-89910) on the L24's with the much larger units from the 2000 Roadsters. It was a long time ago and I could be remembering it incorrectly. Or maybe I need to order another Roadster Sending Unit to remind myself what they looked like... Second: In my Nissan Parts Manual revised June of 1974, it shows: 25070-89910 Switch Oil Pressure From 08/73 In my Nissan Parts Manual revised December of 1979, it shows 25070-89901 Gauge Oil Pressure From 08/73 Is it possible that by Dec. 73 they "corrected" the part number, changing it from 25070-89910 to 25070-89901? Or did they create an error with that change? Checking the online Parts Sources.. 25070-89910 good number Sw Oil Press $46.36 25070-89901 supercedes to 25070-89972 Sw Oil Press $46.32 25240-89910 good number Gauge Oil Pressure $10.96 It would be interesting to "see" what part you would get today, if you ordered the 25240-89910. It would be interesting to find what part number is listed in the 2000 Roadster Parts Manual. The car pictured in the Jan. 1970 Road & Track... which we believe was HLS30 0006, 00007 or 00008... has the Large Oil Pressure Sending Unit shown. The car pictured in the Aug. 1970 ROAD TEST Magazine also shows the Large one. The car pictured in the Oct. 1971 ROAD TEST Magazine also shows the Large one. (first tests of the Automatic Transmission). If I can find an old oil pressure sending unit... I'll let you know what I find. Right now however it would seem that you have the correct unit for the early L24's in the Datsun 240-Z. kind regards, Carl

Hi Kats: On your web site, you show what you call an "early" oil pressure switch. That "looks" like the "Oil Pressure Sending Unit" that was used on the 2000 Roadster's. Many people switched from using the oil pressure sending units that were supplied on the L24, to using the ones for the roadsters because the ones used on the roadsters were more accurate and held up better. The hyper-link to "Rubber glomet for cables" http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903/workrub.html results in either a blank page being displayed, or I get redirected to some other Google site. Can you fix that link? I'd like to know what/which rubber Grommet you need. Screws for door strikers: I believe that the silver one's shown are as original.. but I will go pull the one's for HLS30 00020 to see what they look like. All the Z's here at the house have the silver bolts shown (71, 72, 72, 73). Do you know the difference between a "screw" and a "bolt"?.... Have you ever been bolted? (an old joke;-) kind regards, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Kats: When I spoke to Mr. K the first time in Atlanta 1995, he said he took the "FAIRLADY" badges off the first Z Cars and replaced them with "DATSUN" emblems. Although we did not specifically state it... I believed at the time he was talking about the first three production cars to arrive in the States... they are also known as the "Press Cars" which were later given to the race teams HLS30 00006, 00007 and 00008. According to articles written at the time, the first ship from Nissan that contained Z Cars for sale to the public, held 36 DATSUN 240-Z's and arrived in early Jan. 1970. According to Mr. Brock, BRE received their first Z from the second boat-load which contained several hundred 240Z's in Feb. 1970... that is why BRE started their race car program three months after Bob Sharp Racing got one of the Press Cars in Dec. of 1969. You may recall that John Morton had to use a 2000 roadster, up-classed from D-Production to C-Production to gain enough championship points, to make the 1970 SCCA C-Production Class, American Road Race of Champions for 1970.. (which of course he won for BRE). Years later, in Dearborn at the Induction Ceremony for Mr. K into the Automobile Hall Of Fame in 1998, Les Cannaday and I were standing in the Hotel hallway around our rooms talking to the man that was the L.A. District Sales or Service Manager in 1969... I'm sorry I can't think of his name right now and I'm not sure of his position. He told Les and I the same story and said he was there at the time and he was the person that went and got the "DATSUN" emblems to put on the cars. Sorry I can recall the man's name, we meet so many people from the very early days of Nissan USA at that ceremony I had a hard time keeping them straight. That same person is the one that remembered selling the BRE Baja Z for Peter Brock in 75... so Les or I should have his name somewhere.. He was a tall/big man and may be the person in the films... I'll let you know if I can find his name again.. I don't think that there is any question that Mr. K personally removed the "FAIRLADY" badges from the Z... He said he did and others that were there at the time have confirmed it. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com IZCC #260

Hi Go240Zags (everyone): Believe it or not.. I'll get this discussion back to at least DATSUN and 240-Z's, even while keeping it associated with Spokane, Washington! Don't want to hijack the thread, but traffic is slow... First... all 240-Z's came with lap belts and shoulder belts. Both being required by the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS). In the Series I, 1970/71 model years the two had individual buckles. One for the lap belt and another for the shoulder belt. From the Series II "Late Model 1971" and forward model years, the shoulder belt hooked onto the seat belt's male side of the buckle. As you mentioned and I am told - one can use the retracting mechanism from the 280Z 2+2, although I've never done it. I happen to like the manually adjustable types far better. Meanwhile, back in Spokane, Washington.... Yes, I know Paul. I actually purchased my first 240-Z in March of 1970 from Valley Datsun. Paul Jaremko sold it to me.... that is a long side story in and of itself... I had been at the local Porsche Dealer trying to trade my 67 911S in on a 1970 911E..... we couldn't get together on the price (they wanted to give me next to nothing for my 911 and they wanted top dollar for theirs..). I also had a 1955 Ford Thunderbird at the time. So as I was on my way back to Fairchild AFB... I happened to pass Valley Datsun and they happened to have a silver 240-Z in the showroom window. It was late in the day and I thought they were closed, so I turned around and went back to look in the showroom windows. I had never seen one before and wondered what it was... whatever it was, it was beautiful!! As I peered in, Paul came out of his office, saw me standing there... and motioned for me to come to the side door. He let me in.... and to make a very long story short... I bought that car. HLS30 001777. Being assigned to the 92nd Bomb Wing of the Strategic Air Command... in 1970... my 240-Z sat 6 months in the hangers at Fairchild, as the Wing rotated overseas... six months in SEA then six months in the States... While in the States, Paul and I went auto-crossing on the weekends etc... and I wound up selling DATSUNS for him evenings and weekends...(while off-duty at the base). When I was finally discharged from the service, I took a job as New and Used Car Sales Manager at Jaremko Motors (downtown store). I am proud to say that Paul and I were friends, and still are to this day. He and his entire family are typical of the people that make you proud to be an American. At the auto-crosses, no one could beat Paul. I don't know if you know it, but Paul Jaremko won Nissan their First SCCA Regional Championship in 1964. Paul completed 14 successive victories in a DATSUN SPL310. (as mentioned in John B. Rae's book on the History of Nissan USA). Fred and Pauline, Paul's parents, were among Mr. Katayama's first supporters and first Authorized DATSUN Dealers on the West Coast. Their Daughter and her husband owned the Dealership in Cor de'Lane, Idaho (Boudrey Motors) (spl??). So what does all this have to do with seat belts and shoulder belts in the 240-Z? If it wasn't for those very early Dealers and racers.. we would never have seen the DATSUN 240-Z by 1970. I still have the 1972 DATSUN 240-Z that I bought from Paul, at Valley Datsun at the end of 71. For that matter I still have a son that was born in Spokane in 73. Spokane is a town located in a beautiful area of the Country and it's filled with wonderful people. ( I just couldn't take the Winters and the Space Program was located here in Florida... so by 73 it was time to move). FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Ron: Ah.. gee, I wish you hadn't reminded me. One of the top 240-Z drivers in C-Production lost the SCCA Championship Run-off's at Mid-Ohio a few years ago... when it turned humid, started to rain and he then realized that his defrosters didn't work... he realized it even more as the second place car passed him to finish in first place... as he struggled to wipe the windshield so he could see... he had the defrosters working for the next season... (wish I could think of his name...) FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Go240Zags: If you were around the "Bubble Inn" between 69 and 73... then you would have at least mentioned Bing Crosby in the same breath as Gonzaga High School and Gonzaga University .... yes/no? Was it "Goofy's" that had the hot spiced wine in the Winter... anyway there was nothing else in the country like "Gonzaga Girls" back then.. and I enjoyed every minute of them... ;-) FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Guys: How about a real Ferrari... for $65K USD. http://adcache.collectorcartraderonline.com/10/7/1/76809171.htm The 365GTC/4 (four cam).. was picked as one of the Best of the Decade by one of the car mags. a few months back (where the 365GTB, was followed by the DATSUN 240-Z as First and Second for the 70's). For about $65K USD, you could buy one of the new Brock Daytona Coupes.. the replica's of the Shelby Cobra Daytona Coupe designed by Peter Brock. Under the Heading of Misleading: "HE ORIGINAL 250GTO SELLS FOR AROUND $3M USD AND I BELIEVE THERE ARE*ONLY 8 LEFT IN THE WORLD" All 49 originally built are accounted for...as far as I used to know, when I followed such things, all are still in existence. None were ever convertibles either. No doubt it was a fun project for someone to build... and it might bring around $10K to $12K USD if the right buyer could be reached... but I agree that this guy is simply dreaming. There was a GTO Kit conversion going on at one of the local Z Car Speciality Shops. It was there for many years ... but it had a real Ferrari V12, duplicate GTO Dash etc etc. - you had to look a little closer to realize it wasn't real.. wonder if the guy ever completed it..(de Elegance Z Shop here in Clearwater).. I think this owner simply wanted to get pictures of his car on-line. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Chris Wrote: >Carl, >I disagree with you. I thought we were talking about #1 car values >and your example is not a #1 car. No matter. Hi Chris (everyone): I numbered my examples, only so that they could be referred back to, later in that Post. Didn't mean to indicate that the example I numbered #1, inferred a #1 Condition car (it certainly wasn't written that way, with stone chips and door dings etc.). Everything I put in the example numbered "1", would apply to the green Z in the URL with the exception of slightly higher mileage and California rather than AZ car. (of course it sold for slightly less also). >Chris continued: >I also disagree with you about Black Pearls being sold without the stripes. I would of course be interested to know the basis for your disagreement. I can only tell you that I was at the Datsun Dealership here in Clearwater, when friends of mine working there at the time, were attempting to install the strip kits from the Sport Appearance Package (SAP) on one of the Black Pearls they received. >If what you say is correct, then ZCCA rules would indicate that the stripes > as a dealer installed feature would not be stock. Same apply for the ZZap? Are you sitting down?.... Not only were the stripe kits installed (or screwed up) at the Dealership - the entire Sport Appearance Package was. That included not only the stripe kits, but the Racing Mirrors and the Rear Sun Shade. Even more shocking, you may find the fact that not all Black Pearl Edition 280-Zs came with the SAP. Some had only the $90.00 Black Pearl Paint option (thus were sold with no strips, no racing mirrors, no rear sun shade). I put a copy of the Dealer Notification Sheet/PR Release and a copy of a window sticker for a Black Pearl on the Z Car Home Page a few years ago. http://zhome.com/History/BlackP.htm If your interpretation of the ZCCA rules were correct.. ie. that anything "installed by the Dealer" would not be considered "stock" -then the carpets and hubcaps aren't stock either, as they also came packed in the cargo area and also had to be "installed" by the Dealer. Nissan Motors Inc. USA put the SAP kit together here in the USA. The Shade Kit, which also included the Racing Mirrors was produced here in the USA and sold as a separate item over the parts counter, likewise the racing mirrors could be purchased individually (starting back in 72). The ZZAP-Zzzz decal package was produced here in the USA and I'm pretty sure installed by Distribution And Auto Services Inc. (DAS) at the Port of Los Angeles. They did the 79 280ZX-R package as well, along with many other "specials" (decal packages and special paint schemes) for the North American Market... such as the NFL Team promotional cars. Nissan Port Operations and DAS played a major role in the factory distribution process set up to provide the end customer with the cars they wanted, where they wanted them here in the USA. I think that for the ZCCA to be consistent in their definition of "stock"... they would have to say that stock is defined as; as the car and all items included by Nissan, arrived at the Authorized Dealer. BTW -- DAS installed "Port" A/C for example in the 260Z and 280Z's. The quickest way to tell the difference between Port A/C and the A/C installed at the factory in Japan, was to look at the fan speed selector switch in the dash. The Port A/C had a 3 spd. fan while the A/C installed in Japan had a 4sp. fan. And where did that "Black Pearl" paint come from you may ask?... a spray booth at the Port????..... no, no, no tell me that can't be true...!! FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Ricksaia: In that case, that's what I would do... it's easy enough to swap in the original engine. It would make the car far easier to resell and getting the full value of the car in stock condition, would be well worth the time and effort to swap in the original engine. While you have the L28 out, you can refresh the engine compartment as well. Then you could resell the L28 as well.

ZRush wrote: >....snipped.. >.....Beautiful Z but looks like just another black Z. I would never have >known the BP unless I saw the paint code..... Hi Vicki (everyone): Sometimes, people get so much money wrapped in a restoration, they fear doing anything that might reduced it's future resale value. In that case, retaining a set of Original OEM strips for that Black Pearl might not be too bad an idea. The people on the Black Pearl Register got together and had the strip kits reproduced, in that case I'm with you. I would have bought one of the reproduction sets, and put them on the car. Of course some people just don't like pin stripping on the Z's. In 1978 when the Black Pearls came out... many customers didn't want the strip kits installed. In other cases, the detail guys at the dealerships simply screwed up the strips when trying to apply them.. so the car was sold without the strips to begin with. It is the "Paint Code" (and the paint of course) that make it a Black Pearl.. the First Black Z Car Produced by Nissan... it was a test market for the 1979/80 280ZX model line up... to see if Americans would buy a Black Z. Of course they did, and of course we saw "Black Gold" ad.'s for the 280ZX's... So if you see a 1978 280Z with the Black Pearl paint... it's not just another black Z.. it is the first Z offered in Black and it was fairly limited in the numbers produced. ( I think there were something close to 1000 painted Black Pearl). FWIW, Carl

Chris Wrote: >I think your #1 description sounds more like the "high retail" and >"good to excellent" condition. In that case, I would refer you to >the Wall Street Journal and NADA guides. A 1970 model year with >only 57,000 miles would be well past the $15,000 point. Just look >at what happened to Burt's car. Hi Chris (everyone): With stone chips, door dings and 57K miles...? No. Nice as it is, that's a #3 Car.. Burts car has 14K original miles plus hours of detailing... it's a #2 car that with farther detail changes could be a #1 car. Here's one with slightly more miles...of course it's sold.. @$7,500.00. the new owner and his wife are VERY happy with this Z. See: http://ZHome.com/Adelle/CalZGreen.htm >In my opinion, "here's the original engine sitting on the floor over here" >has no value at all. Maybe tempting value, but parts in a box have no >value to the sale of a car. I think there is a difference between "parts in a box"... and having or not having the original matching number engine in a Classic Car. My point was also that having the engine (out of the car) would not "increase the value", but rather prevent the value from plummeting.... I would agree with Jerry... and that's the advice I give to people when they ask.. spare parts should be sold as "Parts For Sale".. and not thrown in with the car. At the time, as you point out, the parts thrown in with the car really have no significant value to the car buyer.. he is really interested in the Price of the Car. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi ricksaia / everyone: I think the answer is that it won't be worth less, whereas it would be worth less if you didn't have the original engine. Just how much less depends on the overall condition of your Z to begin with. #1......Let's say that you had a 1970 DATSUN 240-Z. It's a one owner car with a known history. Bought and kept in AZ (Arizona is very dry)... it is completely rust free, never wrecked with 57K miles. It's Silver, no cracks in the dash, interior all but perfect.. Always maintained in top condition, you could get in it and drive to New York without a problem. (all hoses and belts are less than two years old, the brakes and clutch are fine etc.). There are only a couple very small stone chips and a couple of very minor door dings, but the paint is bright and shinny, as is all chrome. The frame rails are straight and rust free, as are the floorboards... That car would sell easily for $8,500.00 to $9,500.00 today (slightly less in California). It might take a couple of weeks, or even a couple of months to locate the right buyer... but he/she is out there now looking for this car. One might put an asking price of closer to $10,500.00 as someone might even pay that... #2.......Now let's say you have that same car... with the exception that you have an L28 in place of the original matching number engine... and you no longer have the engine. Now it is a $4,500.00 car... The people that buy Collectable Classic Cars... simply will not buy a car that is no longer capable of being "Restored". They will pay top money for one that is... and they will simply pass on anything that isn't. The person that will buy the car without it's original engine, is the person that simply wants a nice 240-Z to drive, to take to local club meetings/gatherings. The person that loves the 240-Z's but has no desire to ever "Restore" one... Or the person that wants a nice car to modify... These people will usually not be willing to pay anything close to $9,500.00 for a project car or a daily driver. Actually this car is too nice for them... unless they can steal it. #3......Now same car, only with the original engine not installed but available... Good running L28, 5spd. and R200 presently installed ...$5,500.00 to $6,500.00. $2000.00 deduction for taking the risk that the original L24 won't need to be rebuilt along with the work to reinstall it. The other difference is... you can sell #1 fairly quickly, you can sell #3 for slightly less money and it will take more time to sell. #2 will take the longest time to sell.... unless you lower the price. Now lets say that with "YOUR" car, you didn't keep it a factory color, you have a dash cover, the carpet is shot, the seats need to be redone... but it has a pretty paint job (which doesn't match the paint under the hood) and it runs well. Let's also say that it has a bit of bondo where the rust used to be, including the floorboards!!.. it needs a few mechanical details taken care of... and the chassis has about 190K miles on it.... it really won't matter a lot if you have the original engine or not. Just what I see in the market... Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http;//ZHome.com

Carl S. Wrote: >Does ANYONE have a "build sheet" for a Z Car? I have never seen , >nor heard of anyone who did. It is my belief that they simply do not exist. >Just because Chebby or Ford provided them doesn't mean that Nissan did. Hi Carl / everyone: I'd phrase it; "Chevy, Ford and others provide build sheets because their assembly line workers need to know what "factory options" should be installed on the car they are building. At the Dealerships, the New Car Sales Managers ordered cars from the factory, equipped certain ways for their inventory (depending upon what sold best in their locations) and they Special Ordered cars at their customers directions. Because the DATSUN 240-Z's for the North American Market had no factory options, there was no need for a "build sheet" for each individual car. The 240-Z's were most likely built following a daily or weekly Production Order. The Production Orders would specify the number of cars, the color of the cars (and therefore the color of the interiors installed), how many cars got standard transmissions and later how many got A/T's. The Production Orders would allow the assembly lines to be supplied with the needed parts... (so many white interiors, so many black interiors - so much white paint, so much red paint, so much gold paint etc. etc.). FWIW, Carl B.

gnosez wrote: >As an off-shoot for those wondering how a Nissan restored 240Z would >fair in a judged car show where ZCCA rules apply, an inquiry has gone >out to the individuals responsible for determining the rules for ZCCA's >"stock" class to see what they say about "resto-mod" or whatever you >want to call these 240s. I imagine it will take a few weeks to get a ruling >from this group of people but I will post it as soon as I hear. Hi Gnosez /everyone: A "Stock" 240-Z, A Modified 240-Z and a Vintage Z are three entirely different categories. I seriously doubt anyone that knew anything about the Marque would put any of them in the same category for a seriously Judged Competition. Secondly, the ZCCA depends to a large extent on the financial sponsorship of Nissan Motors. They would not be foolish enough to put Vintage Z's in the common classes of "Stock" nor "Modified" cars. The Vintage Z Program Cars are an Automotive Historic Milestone themselves and therefore will always be of more interest to the public and the serious collectors. Five years from now, there will most likely be 1000 Very High Quality Modified 240-Z's around, a 100 Pure Stock 240-Z's and 1 Vintage Z. Maybe the numbers are 4000, 400 and 40... Whatever the absolute number.. the ratio's well be about that.. Enthusiasts are always drawn to examples of the Marque that offer something more interesting in terms of their history. Cars owned by famous people, famous competition cars, factory specials etc. are simply "SHOWN"... they usually don't even compete in the normal Show Car Categories. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Jerry / everyone: I'm not sure what happened to the Values on the NADA Web Site... However, looking back over the years, the NADA CPI Book has changed their "Definition of Categories" at least more than once. In 1989 their reported "HIGH" values were NOT for 100 Point Show Cars... In 1998 their reported "Excellent" values would seem to indicate that they are for 100 Point Show Cars. There Web Site... seems to return to their earlier definitions of categories.. ie "High" values are NOT for 100 Point Show Cars... Also notice their remarks related to data collection and "projecting values" in 1998... which wasn't there in 1989. Below are the remarks and definitions as published 1998 and 1998 (taken from books I kept). NADA Cars of Particular Interest (CPI) Value Guide: 1989 to 1991 Editors Remarks: The sources of data are auctions, dealer sales reports, market letters, club newsletters, CPI make and model surveys by questionnaires and other sources regarded as reliable. The market data is recorded and processed with the aid of computers employing editing processes which are standard in the industry. Definition of Categories: CPI does not assign condition categories to the column headings because values generally move in small increments and there are seldom well defined points which indicate condition. In a general sense, the LOW value represents an intact and functioning automobile which can be restored at reasonable cost. The AVERAGE value in indicative of a clean, front-line ready automobile. The HIGH value is representative of a car which requires nothing. It may be a show car, but not a 100 Point car. There are some cars in CPI which are rarely, if ever, driven, but most cars are assumed to be driven. = = = = = = = = = 1998 Editors Remarks: The sources of data are auctions, dealer sales reports, market letters, club newsletters, CPI make and model surveys by questionnaires and other sources regarded as reliable. The market data above is analyzed by CPI editorial staff and values are projected for the next edition. Definition of Categories: FAIR: Presentable condition. Runs and Drives and will pass a safety inspection. May be driven on a daily basis. Generally in need of a cosmetic restoration, but not a ""basket case". There are many cars on the road that fall below CPI Fair category, and well be priced accordingly. These are commonly referred to as "beaters", and are usually not worth restoring, as the restoration costs will usually all most certainly exceed the value of the finished vehicle. GOOD: Very nice condition. In fact most casual observers would describe the vehicle as "excellent". Good Cars show very little wear and are driven sparingly. Many are used as weekend drivers. Many older restorations fall into this category. EXCELLENT: Nearly perfect condition. The vehicle has usually been professionally restored to the current highest standards, but a few exceptionally well cared for original cars may qualify. All components are original or are an exact replacement. Most excellent cars are not driven more than a few miles per year, if at all. There are vehicles, usually due to an interesting history or special circumstance, which will sell for more than CPI's "excellent" figure, but these are extremely rare and would require extensive documentation. == = = = = = = = = Current Remarks on the Web Page: Definitions Of Categories: Low Retail Value This vehicle would be in mechanically functional condition, needing only minor reconditioning. The exterior paint, trim, and interior would show normal wear, needing only minor reconditioning. May also be a deteriorated restoration or a very poor amateur restoration. Most usable "as-is". Note: This value does not represent a "parts car". Average Retail Value This vehicle would be in good condition overall. It could be an older restoration or a well-maintained original vehicle. Completely operable. The exterior paint, trim, and mechanics are presentable and serviceable inside and out. A "20-footer". High Retail Value This vehicle would be in excellent condition overall. It could be a completely restored or an extremely well maintained original vehicle showing very minimal wear. The exterior paint, trim, and mechanics are not in need of reconditioning. The interior would be in excellent condition. Note: This value does not represent a "100 Point" or "# 1" vehicle *. * "100 Point" or "# 1" vehicle is not driven. It would generally be in a museum or transported in an enclosed trailer to concourse judging and car shows. This type of car would be stored in a climate-regulated facility. ========= End Quote = = = = = = BTW - Jan/Feb/March, 1998 CPI VALUES 240-Z For 1970 240Z: Fair: $2100.00 Good: $3750.00 Excellent: $7500.00 For 71-73 240Z: Fair $1900.00 Good: $3400.00 Excellent: $6800.00 For What It's Worth, given their Web Site Definitions of "High Retail".... there are some cars sold in that condition for $14K.... most are closer to $16K.. Given the 100 Point definition... $18K to $24K would be closer today IMHO. Super rare examples are even higher.. Carl

Hi Guys: If you look at the Vintage Air Web Site, you will see that they specialize in supplying the Street Rod and Custom Car markets (huge here in the US) They do build standard systems for commonly used Street Rod bodies ... They also offer a broad range of custom designed evaporators/heaters from which one can select the size/shape needed for custom applications. I'd say they go far beyond offering just a universal product, although one could nonetheless call it that. Their SuperCooler III hooks directly to the three existing outlets in the Dash.. I just unplugged the existing ducting from the OEM unit and stuck it back on the SuperCooler's three outlets. The Supercooler also has two outlets for the defroster vents.. I used the OEM holes for the heater hoses as well. I used the same mounting points for the SuperCooler, as were used for the OEM heater and aftermarket A/C kit. I did have to make a couple of strap hangers out of simple flat stock. You can get the SuperCooler with all electronic controls.. Of course when you remove the OEM system, the levers and cables that control it are also removed. (this also leaves more room for your radio/stereo) The weakness of the system is that it is a recirculate only system. Unlike the OEM systems in most cars today, you have no fresh air intake. Likewise you have to seal off the fresh air intake of the OEM Vent system... up under the dash. (the original aftermarket kits were also "recirculate only") I will say that given the number of small cars on the market today, all with great OEM systems installed in very limited space ... if one had the time to search, I'm sure that a typical Honda Sedan or Toyota Sedan would yield an evaporator/heater combination that could easily be retrofit into a 240-Z. Once you get into it, you see that it's really not a big job to do the installation of the components yourself. While the Vintage Air SuperCooler IIi puts out about twice the air flow of the original aftermarket systems, and it does cool the car here in Florida on 100+ F degree days... It still doesn't hold a candle to the A/C systems in my old 88 Chevy Pick-up. One of the main reasons being that the Factory systems are designed to introduce fresh air, and are therefore designed with far more total cooling capacity. Half the battle however is preventing the loss of cold air, while preventing as much heat absorption into the cabin as possible to begin with. Heavy window tinting, good body seals and floorboard insulation all have to be as good as possible. If you park the 240-Z out in the sun all day, due to the large glass area the interior becomes a huge heat sink and any system will have a hard time overcoming that heat load. If I were doing it again.. I might redesign the center console so cold air outlets could be supplied at the rear of the front seats. Just to get the heat out of the rear deck area quicker. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Doug /everyone : In 1970, in the SCCA's C-Production Class, "aerodynamic devices" were not allowed to be added to the production cars. (this was a Production Class after-all). Peter Brock devised an air "spoiler" for the radiator combined with a brake cooling scoop" for the BRE 240-Z's that were being raced by BRE Racing. He told the SCCA's tech. inspectors that for the brake cooling ducts to work they had to scoop cool air in from the front of the car. No sir, that's not an "aerodynamic device", it is simply an air spoiler and scoop for cooling air for the radiator and front brakes. (allowed at the time under SCCA's rules). This was born the BRE Front Spook. (spoiler + scoop). Of course the fact that the Spook all but cancels the 140 lbs. of lift generated by the Z's body design at 70 mph, by adding 105 lbs of downforce was simply .... uh... a side benefit... ;-). The rear spoiler was a factory production part and thus allowed under SCCA's rules at the time. Although not "standard equipment" for the North American models, it was standard equipment on the Euro. Spec. Models (as was the 5spd which was also used in SCCA C-Production). The rear spoiler adds 75 lbs of downforce to the rear wheels and thus cancels the 20 lbs of lift at 70 mph on the stock car, and 35 lbs of lift at the rear with a front Spook installed.(adding downforce to the front of the car, pushes the rear up.. thus 35lbs. of lift at the rear with the front Spook installed). FWIW Carl Any 240Z driven on the highway really should have a Spook!

Hi Andrew /everyone: The Vintage Air unit actually sits higher under the dash than the old kits did. When I installed mine a couple years ago - Vintage Air didn't have the fully electronic controls they do now. So I simply make a replacement finisher panel for the center of the dash - with larger air outlets and no levers from the OEM system. If you remind me a few days from now - I'll try to get you some pictures.. It certainly doesn't look "stock"... but you might be able to retain the stock look with the new controls (you could put them in the glove box for example). What one really needs - for an A/C system that REALLY WORKS.. is to pipe cold air to the rear hatch area. With the present systems it is very hard to get good circulation of the air behind the seats... and that is where a lot of the HOT air is. If you park your car out in the sun... it's very difficult to get it cooled back down in less than half hour.. (where most modern OEM systems will cool a hot car down in minutes). E-mail me a reminder in a few days.. cbeck@becksystems.com FWIW, Carl

Hi Gee: Everyone has different expectations ... but the A/C in the 260Z works in just an OK manor here. It certainly isn't nearly a capable as any modern factory system. As I understand it, the Courtesy system is basically the same as the original add-on kits, with the exception of using a more modern rotary style compressor and being R-134a ready. Some people have told me they are satisfied with it... I guess it all depends on your local needs/expectations. FWIW, Carl

Hi Gee: I live in Florida, USA. It gets hot and humid here. I've been driving Datsun 240-Z's now for the past 35 years. As I got older, the desire for really good A/C got stronger and stronger. The aftermarket A/C kits designed in the early 70's and sold though the DATSUN Dealers was about the worst A/C I've ever had in a car. In my opinion it was more a "Sales Tool" than anything else. The Datsun Dealers simply wanted to be able to say "Yes", when ask if the 240-Z could be equipped with Air Conditioning. The after-market kit really did a very poor job of cooling the car, as compared to any standard A/C system on GM, Ford or Chrysler automobiles of the same period. Putting one of the old after-market A/C kits in the 240-Z is a waste of time and money as far as I am concerned. As someone pointed out earlier, the evaporator in that system is placed ahead of the OEM heater/Vent system. So the OEM fan has to suck air through the evaporator, then blow it through to the OEM heater/vent system Given that the OEM fan can't move enough air to begin with, and the old ducting leaks air everywhere - an inadequate system is farther degenerated. Cooling a 240-Z is a major job to begin with. The cars as designed, have very little insulation and leak air like a sieve. On top of that, the hatch back design creates a huge greenhouse, within which the air heats to super high temperatures. The "Factory A/C" systems that came in our late 260Z's and 280Z's was a vast improvement over the after-mark kits for the 240-Z's. But they will not fit in a 240-Z unless you change the entire dash. The dash in the our 260/280Z's was actually an inch or two deeper, so the Factory A/C evaporator would fit behind it. (it won't fit behind the 240-Z dash) There is only one solution as far as I am concerned. Take the entire OEM heater/vent system out and throw it away. Then go to" Vintage Air" and buy one of their SuperCoolers. This approach however, will not leave your car's dash looking pure stock. (you have to eliminate the OEM heater/vent control levers). http://vintageair.com/ The Vintage Air SuperCooler has both the heater core and the A/C Evaporator in a single compact box. Then air is blown through the system (so if it leaks, it leaks cold air out via the OEM duct work. The Vintage Air Super Cooler is also available with all electronic controls. You can use the 260/280/280ZX A/C Compressor mounting bracket to mount a newer style rotary compressor from those models. With the Vntage Air system you would also want to upgrade your alternator... the Vintage Air Fan draws massive amounts of current.. but it moves massive amounts of air also. If you are planning on using R-134a...(and you should).. then you want to make sure that every component in the system you set up is designed specifically for that gas. (don't let people tell you it doesn't matter). The molecular size of R-134a is smaller than the old R-12. So you have to have a condenser and evaporator with tubes of a smaller diameter. That is so that the molecules of the R-134a stay in direct contact with the metal of the tubes, and thus conduct the heat to the outside and the cold to the inside of the car. Compression fittings that used to retain R-12, will leak R-134a. For a R-134a system you have to use "0-ring" type fittings. As I recall, when it was all said and done.. I think I spent something close to $1,200.00 on all the parts (new everything). I used the OEM 280Z/280ZX compressor (Hitachi). It is possible to mount a far less expensive compressor if you can find or have made the necessary mounting brackets. I am happy to report that I finally have an A/C system in my 240-Z that will actually cool the car down on a hot day!! FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Jerry // everyone: In your opening remarks to this thread, you said: "Now I know there are enthusiasts and there are purists, and their perspectives will be different on this subject. I would like to change all our perspectives on this subject, even if ever so slightly. In the context that that we usually hear the term "Purists"; as in "the Purists"... It seems to be a reference to a fanatically motivated, although small group, of individuals who insist on forcing their gospel on the Classic Car Community they happen to be in. They don't hesitate preaching fire and brimstone to anyone publicly, if the unwashed dare to modify a sacred Classic. Like all fanatics, the Purists really enjoy getting in your face and under your skin, while at the same time failing completely to comprehend the true meaning of the Gospels Of Restoration. Having properly identified and defined them above, let's set that group aside for the minute, for they are "False Purists". The "True Purist" is really a wonderful combination of subject knowledge, artistic ability, perseverance and perfectionism. The True Purist is our most honest historian, working tirelessly on uncovering the true origins of our marque.... ie. "as it left the factory". The True Purist can be found grouped within one or several categories of automotive enthusiasts. He might actually be a "restorer of classic cars" or a "Collector of Classic Cars". The True Purist might simply be one who first performs exhaustive research and then writes about the marque. In many cases the True Purist may be a combination of all these or none. One doesn't have to "own" a 100 Point Concours Example, nor even to "build" one. The True Purist may simply be a person who has only a driving thirst for knowledge related to the subject of our affections. One who appreciates possessing ever deeper and finer, especially if little known, facts about the how the cars were built in the first place. The fact is, the True Purist and the Enthusiasts are one and the same. The True Purists will appreciate your Classic, no matter where it falls on the continuum from 100 Point Concours Original to Beautifully Modified. The True Purists will always appreciate "Cinderella" and disdain a "Frankenstein Monster". What makes a True Purists different from the average enthusiast? The True Purists will know in fine detail, the difference between the two. Preservation is the first step to restoration. With kind regards to the True Purists among you. Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Chris wrote: >...snipped....... "This number may have been the number of cars Nissan actually bought." Hi Chris (everyone): Having been in direct communications with with the buyer for the Vintage Z Program, while he was buying... I can tell you with certainty that he was finding it all but impossible to buy more than around 45 cars, for the $3,500.00 budgeted. I did send him leads as they came in and I did try to get him to buy HLS30 000240 for the "charity" car ... Nissan didn't want to spend the $8,500.00 that the owner wanted for that car. I'd guess that the number of 150 was based on indicated demand. The initial price that Nissan put on the cars was around $23,995.00. At that price point there was a pretty quick and strong interest from buyers. FWIW Carl

Hi Chris / everyone: I have updated the Vintage Z Register... There is a hyper-link to pictures of each car on the Register now. There is a list of the Original Z-Car Stores also hyper-linked The Vintage Z Register Is Now linked on the Z Car Home Page http://ZHome.com The Direct URL Is: http://zhome.com/IZCC/ZRegisters/Vintage/VintageZ.htm We are now looking for input of Vintage Z's not on the Register... if you know of one, e-mail me the information at: beck@becksystems.com I'll also be Posting a note to the "big list", to see if we can reach more Vintage Z Owners. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Este: I'm with Carl S on this one... I've never found anything as good a Kroil. The downside is you have to order it - and wait for it to come. At least no one around here carries it in stock. www.kanolabs.com They make several variations, for specific uses.. I'd try to aerosol AEROKROIL (most likely later you'll be ordering it in bulk). They also put out a useful newsletter.. sign up for that, lots of good tips there as well. I usually look in the Parts Manuals first - to see how things come apart. All most all the views are Exploded Views that show every nut and bolt. Mike used to sell the Parts Manuals on CD-ROM, I don't know if he still does or not. If not Courtesy Nissan sell them. www.courtesyparts.com FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com