Carl Beck

Hi Kats: It is only a matter of time before Datsun 240-Z's will be very carefully judged based upon having every nut, bolt and screw being "correct" for the model and date of the car. It might be five years, it might be ten, but you are young enough to see and enjoy the time when it has been accomplished. The very fact that we collect these correct parts, are interested in them, discuss them, will drive the eventual Judging Standards somewhere, at some time in the future - to include them in minute detail. Like the path taken years ago by previous Classic's - at some point in the future we will have the documentation gathered together in one place, and published in one form - that will define for the future Judges exactly what is "correct" and what therefore isn't. At first this documentation won't be perfect - but it will evolve to ever higher and higher standards over the following years. This may happen over time within the ZCCA - or it may happen outside the ZCCA. Somewhat the same manor it happened in the Corvette Community or the Thunderbird Community. There is however a growing number of people that would like to focus strictly on defining what a Datsun 240-Z as it left the factory should look like. When this now small but growing group of people is large enough - I think you'll see the documentation developed that will be necessary to "Certify" 240-Z's as being "as they left the factory". So hang in there and keep gathering those coveted rare parts.... hope to see you in Daytona this year... Carl B.

Hi John: There might be some truth to that today - the real question is if it will hold true for long. The Buyers of Classic British Iron - are for the most part the generation that proceeded the Baby Boomers. They were 25 to 30 years old when the first big Healey's hit the market and today some of them have the funds to have the dream car of their day. No question the big Healeys have much appeal - beautiful classic lines and a full roadster at that. The Baby Boomers however out number their previous generation by about 3 to 1 and when the Datsun 240-Z came out they were 25 to 30. Now the Baby Boomers, flush with cash, are fully in the Classic Collector and Special Interest market - most obviously in the Muscle Car market... but within that generational group - it's the Datsun 240-Z that was and is the dream car of their youth. The fact that the above is true - is one of the, if not the, most important qualities of the Datsun 240-Z. Almost overnight it changed the American Consumers perception of the Quality of Japanese Automobiles. That is the reason that the Datsun 240-Z is considered to be one of the ten most important cars in U.S. Automotive History. Just the way I see it.... Carl B.

Hi John (everyone): This has turned into a long magazine article - so read it when you have the time. In advertising/marketing there is a concept referred to as "Product Ladders". Product Ladders are a conceptual way of looking at how consumers rank competing products in over-all terms. One of the most famous examples of how this was applied, took place in the Automobile Rental industry. At the time Hertz was the leading automobile rental company in the U.S. and it was about seven times bigger than it's nearest competitor. Hertz used the advertising slogan of "We're #1" which was followed by the fact that Hertz was there for you at all major airports in the country - so you could count on them to have a car almost anywhere you needed one, when you needed it. American's love Champions/Winners.... and hate sore losers. A rather bright guy took on the Avis account for a medium size advertising agency and at that point in time Avis was about the sixth largest automobile rental agency in the U.S. He came up with the advertising slogan "Avis, we're #2 - so we try harder"... which after the first few years was shortened to "We Try Harder". That slogan defined a Product Ladder in the consumers minds for the Automobile Rental Industry for the first time, even though thousands of other consumer products had done the same over the years, and even though most didn't realize it some did. What "Product Ladder" do you think people paying $40K to $60K for a big Healey have in their minds? Perhaps it's a "Classic British Sports Car" Product Ladder. Jag. D-Type on the top rung all the way down to a Triumph Spitefire at the bottom (no offense to Spitfire owners - I admit I know nothing about that product ladder -it's just an example to put the image in your mind). In the above sense - it makes sense that if one can not afford a D or E-Type... lovers of Classic British Sports Cars move down the rungs until they find a rung on the ladder that they can afford. On the other hand, the really big money people run out of D-E's to buy at the top and they start adding the cars to their Collections from the lower rungs - a big Healey perhaps - to their Collections. Today that rung seems to be at the $40K-$60K level - approaching the top rung for small money people - and the question to be answered over the next ten years is - "Will the big money people be willing to come down the Ladder to start buying them up and in so doing - start bidding against one another for them". We'll all be watching to see if that happens. One thing that does happen is this - as the prices paid for the Top Rungs go up - the entire Product Ladder moves up and usually it's one rung at a time. The main reason a big Healey is today commanding $40K-$60K is because an E-Type is now what??? $85K to $120K and there are still some nice #3 cars that can be bought every once in a while. In the past couple of years I've personally seen several #2 Datsun 240-Z's change hands in the $30K to $35K range, and one #1 280Z be sold for $40K. I have more than a couple of serious Collectors constantly bugging me to find them #1 or #2 Datsun 240-Z's - and there is no doubt in my mind that any of them will gladly pay $40K to $50K for a #1 Condition car - the problem is, I haven't found a single #1 Condition 240-Z that any owner will part with, and very few #2 Condition cars. So what Product Ladder do these Collectors have in their minds, what class of Collectors are they (small money or big money) - and on what rung do they place the Datsun 240-Z. ???? My best guess, based on watching this market pretty closely, having dabbled in Classic, Collectible and Special Interest cars a bit myself and now dealing with a growing number of these Collectors would be: a) The Product Ladder is "The Worlds Best Sports/GT's and/or Sports Cars". The rung is not quite the bottom one but close - because there are very few inexpensive cars on that Product Ladder to begin with. c) At present it is both small money and big money Collectors in the market. Small money and big money Collectors overlap today in the $75K to $125K price range. What is amazing to me is that Datsun 240-Z's are now sitting side by side in Collections with half million dollar Ferrari's and Porsches as well as $100K BMW's and M/B's. The Chevy Corvair will always be at the bottom rungs of the "Classic, Collectible and Special Interest Chevy" Product Ladder - even though they are unique, have great competition history and industry leading technology. Nonetheless I doubt they will ever make the leap to other Product Ladders like the "Worlds Best Sports/GT's or Sports Cars". Can the Big Healey's ever make the leap to other Product Ladders where their value will increase at a much higher rate of appreciation - we'll have to wait to see. Maybe it's happening now - maybe not. Could be like the Corvair's the big Healey's well stay strictly on the "Classic British Sports Car" Ladder.. The Datsun 240-Z has already made the move from the "Japanese Sports Cars" Product Ladder and their present market values encourage their restoration even at twice the cost of their current market values. Personally, I'd rather have two #2 Condition Datsun 240-Z's today at $30K each than one Big Healey at $60K. I believe it would be a far safer bet - and worse case you'd actually have a car you could drive anytime anywhere. Will a Datsun 240-Z ever bring higher values than the big Healey's?... I could easily see that happening because the Z seems to have far broader appeal on several different Product Ladders. You see this reflected in polls like AUTOMOBILE Magazine's rankings of the best Sports/GT's of the Decade - were for the decade of the 70's the Datsun 240-Z ranked second only to the Ferrari 365-GTB Daytona. The idea that a group of automotive experts and/or top enthusiasts even thought of the Datsun 240-Z in the same light as the decades super exotics should tell you something. Time will tell.... FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Arne: Hope you know I was just razzing you a little... the truth is you must know the "values" pretty well as you bought the Red Z at the RIGHT price. regards, Carl

Hey... is this the same Arne that was telling me that the Silver Pig in Texas, with Lip Stick - WAS worth $15K - - and how your saying that a Series I car with 39K original miles isn't worth $15K??? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1971-Datsun-240z-Mint-Condition-California-Beauty_W0QQitemZ290092734632QQcategoryZ6187QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Have you been in the cabin too long this Winter :-)... Someone has now bid that Silver 71 up to $10,101.00 - if that car is worth $10K - then the Series I car is worth $18K AT or no AT... even with a few dents in the floor.. heck - a crack free Series I dash alone is worth a grand.. Time for a Florida Vacation Arne... come on down! Carl B.

oops... Carl B.

Hi Guys: The L24's in the 240-Z's have always be "cold natured". When they were brand new - starting from cold (anything below 70 degrees is cold to them)... it took several seconds of cranking to catch and start. As the cars age - the mechanical fuel pumps loose a little efficiency.. and it takes longer for them to suck the gas back into the fuel lines - then push it to the carb.s. The longer the car sits without being started - the longer it takes the first time to start. If you are in a colder area of the US/Canada... in the Fall and Winter months... it can easily take 5 to 10 seconds of cranking when the temp's are below 60 degrees. The efficiency of the battery and the battery terminal connections will also cause delayed starting. Make certain that your battery terminals, cables and connections at the starter are CLEAN and TIGHT. Fuel Injected Z's and all newer cars - maintain fuel pressure in the lines - atomize the fuel more completely via high pressure rather than high temp.'s - and meter the air/fuel mixtures with far more precision - so they "instant start" for the most part - don't expect an L24 with carb's to do that. Once everything is warmed up - the L24's should fire on the first couple of cranks.. FWIW, Carl B.

I've always used 6 to 7 lbs/ft based in the bolt diameter... The main reason I use a torque wrench on them is to get a uniform compression of the valve cover gasket. Oh.. I've used Nissan OEM Valve Cover Gaskets and used to buy the Fel-Pro gaskets. Never had any trouble with either. seems to work... Carl B.

I use a light coating of Permatex "High Tack Gasket Sealant" - on the valve cover side only. That way, when you lift the valve cover off to adjust valves - the gasket stays with the valve cover. The valve cover is cast aluminum alloy - and can be somewhat pitted... so a little sealant is useful. The head on-the-other hand is a far higher quality casting and machined to an ultra smooth surface - you really should not need a sealant on that interface. It is VERY important to torque the valve cover bolt down to their spec. -in the proper order (center out ward). The re-torque them after the engine has been run though a few heat cycles. Also important to use valve cover bolts with good and clean threads. As Chris said - make sure you are dealing with very clean surfaces. Here is a good reference chart <a href=www.permatex.com/documents/GasketDressingSelector.pdf TARGET=NEW> Permatex Gasket Dressing Selector </a> FWIW, Carl B.

Hi John: I was under the impression that the "Collector" Cars could only be "Exhibited" at the ZCCA Conventions once they attained the Gold Medallion Award. After that they would be exhibited/displayed, but no longer allowed to compete in Judged Events at the ZCCA Annual Convention. (yes/no?) Nonetheless, I agree that part of the over-all progression of the Datsun 240-Z's will be their growing entry into the Concours Events. Collectors that now own Classics of several different Marquees are adding the Datsun 240-Z to their Collections. In private collections around the country Datsun 240-Z's now sit proudly beside Classic Ferrari's, Porsche's, Jaguars, Corvettes etc. That wasn't so much the case 10 short years ago. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of the evolution followed by the Enthusiasts and Collectors of a single Marque; more so than that of the over-all Classic Car environment. More along the lines of say the mid-year Corvettes - ie. their Bloomington Gold Certification or NCRS Flight Award for correctly restored Corvettes. In that context I put a group at each end of a more narrowly defined continuum Enthusiasts at one end and the Ultimate Collectors at the other - just to abstract the discussion from the hundreds of variables and exceptions of the real world. While I certainly enjoy being in the company of Dan and Charlie - I don't own a "Concours Quality 240-Z" in the sense of the term "as it left the factory". I do own and am restoring an historic competition car - but it is hardly "as it left the factory" and will be pretty much as raced - original Baja Dents left in the floors - lots of holes drilled for various reasons left in place etc. I hope it will be as cleanly prepared as BRE originally did it - but it will be restored more as a typical competition car - not really done to show perfection. (I've already got a couple of scratches in it..;-) Like several others I could name here - I have accumulated most of the parts needed to restore a 240-Z to #1 Stock Condition, I have a car that is a good basis... but so far I haven't started on that project. I do have a Blue 72 240-Z that I bought new at the end of 71 - I've refreshed it. I also have a White 72 that I bought to drive - I've refreshed it as well. I'd rate both a solid #3 condition Z's. Actually today there are of course more than just Enthusiasts or Collectors.... most of us are blends of the two extremes and it will stay that way for a while. I can think of several guys here, that would fall into three or four more narrowly defined groups. Enthusiasts: a) Racers/Performance Oriented (Historic, Drag, Road, Auto-crossing) Restorers - derive pleasure from the process of refreshing or restoring these cars c) Drivers - Grand Touring, Daily Driving, Weekend Drivers - own and drive for pleasure d) Original Owners - the 240-Z is a member of the family and most of us will die owning ours e) The enthusiasts that owns one "Collector Quality 240-Z" Collectors: 1) Actually Collect #1 and/or #2 Condition Cars - "the collection" is the goal. 2) An Enthusiast that happens to also own a #1 or #2 condition car - and shows it. 3) Collectors of Rare Parts that enjoy owning a collection of them 4) Collectors of Marque Memorabilia and Historic Items associated with the Marque 4). ..... As I said - interesting discussion at any rate... FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Moonpup: It might be hypocritical if that single exception was made because someone present when the rules were written - has a car with that exception. On the other hand it would seem to be just fuzzy thinking, or rationalized for one reason or another. In any event it certainly does not display good logic nor does it seem to support any clearly defined objective. Interesting discussion. The "issues" or "problems" with the ZCCA Show and Judging Rules are really typical of most Marquees - at this point in their life cycles. At the present time DATSUN 240-Z's in America are still owned mostly by Enthusiasts who are starting to realize that their Sports/GT really is a Classic, really is gaining in value yearly and really is becoming a rare sight on the roads. These same people are very proud of their cars and are interested in maintaining and improving them - then comparing them to other Enthusiasts Z's. IMHO the ZCCA Judging Rules reflect to a great extent - the cars and people that show up at the ZCCA Annual Convention. They also seem to support the ZCCA's perspective that the Car Show at the Convention is pretty much that - a car show. A place for everyone to gather for a few hours one day to see all the cars. Then pick the best from among them - in a few hours that day - so that the awards can be announced that night or the next. All this is perfectly fine - as long as everyone involved understands that and agrees to that - right from the beginning. I may be talking like an old man - but I can easily remember when the Classic Thunderbird Club went through this same period, with this same situation. Situation - What Situation? The situation is the transition of the Datsun 240-Z from "Enthusiasts Z" to "Collector Z". I see the situation reflected here and many other places. The Enthusiasts resent "check book cars" (because most of us don't have the check book balance needed). The Enthusiast actually resent or bad mouth "Trailer Queens" (because they don't want one - or because they can't afford one). The Enthusiasts want a "Stock" class that makes exceptions for all manor of items they don't consider to be of importance .. or to simply not judge them to begin with. "Stock" to them means a basically stock enthusiast's car. {Look at the dialog in this and many other threads}. On the other end of the "transition" however - are the "Collectors".... at present they are just getting started - but in the end they will hold most of the remaining 240-Z's in America (and for that manor around the world). At some point in the future 98% of the DATSUN 240-Z's in America will be either Condition #1 or #2 examples and there might be a few holdouts that keep their #4, #5 and even #6 cars until they die. Then their heirs will sell them. Anyone seen any #3, #4, or #5 Condition: -Early 50's MG TD's or TF's for sale lately? -53, 54, 55, 56, 56 or 57 Corvettes for sale lately? -55, 56, 57 300SL's for sale lately? -55, 56, 57 Thunderbirds for sale lately? -61 Pontiac Catalina or Bonnivelle's or 64 Pontiac GTO's For Sale lately? -63-67 Corvettes ? At some point in time all the above and many, many others were all drivers, enthusiast's cars... Now they are all judged to very very demanding and strict standards. "Stock" really means "as it left the factory". At National Level Events you won't hear anyone bitching about check book cars nor trailer queens. No one will insist that these car were meant to be driven... Almost without exception the keeper of these Classics will insist that they be preserved, protected and maintained in perfect condition. Over time - and it takes time - lots of time - the ZCCA will have to evolve it's judging rules/standards and perhaps evolve it's Car Show to reflect the types of cars and people that show up then.... fewer and fewer enthusiasts with daily driver 240-Z's or #3 and #4 Condition cars - to more and more Collectors with #1 and #2 condition 240-Z's. At that point they'll have to get down to the nity-grity, every nut, bolt and screw will have to perfect and "as it left the factory" in order to determine a class winner. During that prolonged transition period - not too many of us are going to be perfectly happy nor satisfied... FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Jerry: I'm with you - this is the type of car well worth being the basis for a full refresh or restoration - or just buying now and enjoying - kept in it's original condition it will appreciate over time. Throw a cheap, shinny new paint job on it and you would reduce it's market appeal and value... Properly refresh it - with a high quality, complete paint job.. and it would command a pretty penney in a few years. As always - If It Checks Out to be as presented... FWIW, Carl B.

Yes - when I said "flood car" I did mean it has the appearance of having been under water. I'm in Florida and we are seeing a lot of cars from Texas, LA, AL - that were totalled because of being under water - somehow showing up here with clean titles. My comment was with regard to the water marks on top of the starter - the large amount of rust high up on the engine block and the over-all appearance of the engine compartment. I wouldn't bet any money that it had in fact been under water - only that it had the appearance of cars that had been. Just a comment thown out there to prompt people to take a more careful or critical look. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Gary: I'm amazed at this .... usually I'm the one arguing for higher values on these cars!! The value of any of them - has to be based I believe, on the one standard known to all of us - "as it left the factory". We can and do debate all manor of minute details about "as it left the factory"... but overall, that is the one standard were we can all have a mutual meeting of the mind, a common metal image of what a car at that standard would look like. How anyone chooses to refresh or restore their car - is up them - but the quality of work, the cost of the various choices made - has to have an effect on the resale value - Yes/No? In my humble opinion - the car in question has a shinny paint job, re-chromed bumpers and not much else to recommend it. Lots of after-market stuff, lots of wrong parts and only a partial "refresh" done. (I hate it when an engine compartment is totally ignored). So what could you have bought for $15K - ?? How about a very low VIN, 69 production, pure stock, nearly perfect 240-Z with 60K actual, documented miles. Previously located in the Pacific North West.(it came with the original metal fan - removed for safety} This IS a $15K car.... Note the condition of the engine compartment, and I can assure you that it's as clean underneath as it is on top. I think the car Jerry pointed out is a far better buy...(if of course it checks out)... FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Guys: It sounds like the ZCCA needs to add another "Class" named "Personal Taste". This would be for cars that the owner has injected his personal taste into - without regard for any of the usual Competitive Show Car classes, class rules or judging standards. The Judgment in the Personal Taste Class - would then be based strictly on which car the Judges simply liked the best - who has done their thing - with the best Personal Taste. Or simply "display" the car in the Non-judged Class... At least at NY there were as many nice Z's outside as there were inside for the Judged Classes. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Ron: I'm not sure what the seller's reserve was for the car below - but it only brought a high bid of $12K. Check the detailing on this one, the documentation of the rebuild, the engine compartment etc etc etc. <a href=http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1972-Datsun-240-Z-Ground-Up-restortion_W0QQitemZ110088051231QQihZ001QQcategoryZ6187QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem TARGET=NEW> Nice White 72 </a> Like I said, I don't know where the above seller sat his reserve - but I've written him to ask.{matter of fact I just called him too} I'll guess he was thinking $18K to $20K... but it didn't sell - and now he may grab $15K. He has to have $25K or more in it... No question it is easy to spend $15K refreshing or restoring a 240-Z - but when you do it yourself you know what's under that shinny new paint - and if you put that kind of money into one - your going to have a far far better result. You are also more than likely to document the process with full before and after photo's and a box of receipts. Shop, shop, and shop - sooner or later you will find a 240-Z that someone else has done correctly and who has put well over $25K into - that can be bought for $15K cash. A truly solid #3 Car... FWIW, Carl

What you see here is "maybe" a good body, maybe a good paint job and maybe a few good parts. Almost everything else needs to be restored. Wrong Carpet Cracked Dash Wrong Door Panel - drivers side Wrong Steering Wheel Wrong Radio Wrong Wheels Engine Compartment Looks like a Flood Car. If the paint and body are actually done to OEM or better quality - it's a $7K car at best. Then you'd have to spend another $7K to put everything else right. Photo's of the undercarriage? Does he have photo documentation of the process used for the body and paint? Original Engine? Documentation of mileage and service history - owner history etc. Window sticker, original bill of sale, owner manual, service booklet? This car is a long way from a $15K 240-Z. Worth a close look - but IMHO already over priced at $8K By the way - who is bidding on this car so early? Do you know people that bid seriously before the last few seconds? (other than the sellers brother, mother, friends?) FWIW, Carl B.

New pictures show more rust than before... $3,500.00 max... and then only after close inspection.... this one has been ridden hard and put away wet. FWIW, Carl B.

Someone got a super bargain... Carl B.

They should bolt on with no problem - and it seems they did. The latches should work and it seems they did... The problem is - they won't seal, because the two doors have different shapes where they fit inside the bodyshell. The shape of the door frame above the rockers is different... Driven at speed you'll hear the difference and when it rains you'll see the difference. Someone on this forum went through this a couple years ago. Carl B.

Hi David: It the data tag is still in the engine compartment - It would be interesting to know the original engine serial number - Should be something close to L28-00200. Carl B.

You never know until you look at the car - BUT - if it's as presented it should bring $5K to $6K. Front bumper looks bent - it will need a complete refresh but should be a good car to start a refresh on... Carl B.

An update to this thread... Bryan rightful points out that his repo, was patterned after the shift boot supplied... So it is more than likely that the NOS shift boot on E-Bay and the one Kats pictured - is of a later style/design/manufacturer... So maybe we don't want the newer style... and maybe my comments were poorly thought out. So now it's time for everyone - including me - to go dig out the old shift boots and see what we come up with. I think I have a NOS boot that I ordered years ago, stuck away somewhere.. So I'll be trying to dig that one out... FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Gang: If you'd like to see a couple of seconds of the BRE Baja Z, as raced by Ventura Datsun in the MINT 400 in 1974 or 75 here is an old video clip... BRE sold the car in 74... Don't know if Ventura Datsun sponsored the Z or just held it and raced it themselves. Not sure who the Driver/Navigator are... still researching it at this point. Amazing what shows up on the Internet... <a href=http://www.photoahead.com/old/zcar.wmv TARGET=NEW> See: Venture Datsun MINT 400</a> FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Sad... 134 designs and not one I would spend my money on... Carl B.