Carl Beck

Hi Moonpup: It might be hypocritical if that single exception was made because someone present when the rules were written - has a car with that exception. On the other hand it would seem to be just fuzzy thinking, or rationalized for one reason or another. In any event it certainly does not display good logic nor does it seem to support any clearly defined objective. Interesting discussion. The "issues" or "problems" with the ZCCA Show and Judging Rules are really typical of most Marquees - at this point in their life cycles. At the present time DATSUN 240-Z's in America are still owned mostly by Enthusiasts who are starting to realize that their Sports/GT really is a Classic, really is gaining in value yearly and really is becoming a rare sight on the roads. These same people are very proud of their cars and are interested in maintaining and improving them - then comparing them to other Enthusiasts Z's. IMHO the ZCCA Judging Rules reflect to a great extent - the cars and people that show up at the ZCCA Annual Convention. They also seem to support the ZCCA's perspective that the Car Show at the Convention is pretty much that - a car show. A place for everyone to gather for a few hours one day to see all the cars. Then pick the best from among them - in a few hours that day - so that the awards can be announced that night or the next. All this is perfectly fine - as long as everyone involved understands that and agrees to that - right from the beginning. I may be talking like an old man - but I can easily remember when the Classic Thunderbird Club went through this same period, with this same situation. Situation - What Situation? The situation is the transition of the Datsun 240-Z from "Enthusiasts Z" to "Collector Z". I see the situation reflected here and many other places. The Enthusiasts resent "check book cars" (because most of us don't have the check book balance needed). The Enthusiast actually resent or bad mouth "Trailer Queens" (because they don't want one - or because they can't afford one). The Enthusiasts want a "Stock" class that makes exceptions for all manor of items they don't consider to be of importance .. or to simply not judge them to begin with. "Stock" to them means a basically stock enthusiast's car. {Look at the dialog in this and many other threads}. On the other end of the "transition" however - are the "Collectors".... at present they are just getting started - but in the end they will hold most of the remaining 240-Z's in America (and for that manor around the world). At some point in the future 98% of the DATSUN 240-Z's in America will be either Condition #1 or #2 examples and there might be a few holdouts that keep their #4, #5 and even #6 cars until they die. Then their heirs will sell them. Anyone seen any #3, #4, or #5 Condition: -Early 50's MG TD's or TF's for sale lately? -53, 54, 55, 56, 56 or 57 Corvettes for sale lately? -55, 56, 57 300SL's for sale lately? -55, 56, 57 Thunderbirds for sale lately? -61 Pontiac Catalina or Bonnivelle's or 64 Pontiac GTO's For Sale lately? -63-67 Corvettes ? At some point in time all the above and many, many others were all drivers, enthusiast's cars... Now they are all judged to very very demanding and strict standards. "Stock" really means "as it left the factory". At National Level Events you won't hear anyone bitching about check book cars nor trailer queens. No one will insist that these car were meant to be driven... Almost without exception the keeper of these Classics will insist that they be preserved, protected and maintained in perfect condition. Over time - and it takes time - lots of time - the ZCCA will have to evolve it's judging rules/standards and perhaps evolve it's Car Show to reflect the types of cars and people that show up then.... fewer and fewer enthusiasts with daily driver 240-Z's or #3 and #4 Condition cars - to more and more Collectors with #1 and #2 condition 240-Z's. At that point they'll have to get down to the nity-grity, every nut, bolt and screw will have to perfect and "as it left the factory" in order to determine a class winner. During that prolonged transition period - not too many of us are going to be perfectly happy nor satisfied... FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Jerry: I'm with you - this is the type of car well worth being the basis for a full refresh or restoration - or just buying now and enjoying - kept in it's original condition it will appreciate over time. Throw a cheap, shinny new paint job on it and you would reduce it's market appeal and value... Properly refresh it - with a high quality, complete paint job.. and it would command a pretty penney in a few years. As always - If It Checks Out to be as presented... FWIW, Carl B.

Yes - when I said "flood car" I did mean it has the appearance of having been under water. I'm in Florida and we are seeing a lot of cars from Texas, LA, AL - that were totalled because of being under water - somehow showing up here with clean titles. My comment was with regard to the water marks on top of the starter - the large amount of rust high up on the engine block and the over-all appearance of the engine compartment. I wouldn't bet any money that it had in fact been under water - only that it had the appearance of cars that had been. Just a comment thown out there to prompt people to take a more careful or critical look. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Gary: I'm amazed at this .... usually I'm the one arguing for higher values on these cars!! The value of any of them - has to be based I believe, on the one standard known to all of us - "as it left the factory". We can and do debate all manor of minute details about "as it left the factory"... but overall, that is the one standard were we can all have a mutual meeting of the mind, a common metal image of what a car at that standard would look like. How anyone chooses to refresh or restore their car - is up them - but the quality of work, the cost of the various choices made - has to have an effect on the resale value - Yes/No? In my humble opinion - the car in question has a shinny paint job, re-chromed bumpers and not much else to recommend it. Lots of after-market stuff, lots of wrong parts and only a partial "refresh" done. (I hate it when an engine compartment is totally ignored). So what could you have bought for $15K - ?? How about a very low VIN, 69 production, pure stock, nearly perfect 240-Z with 60K actual, documented miles. Previously located in the Pacific North West.(it came with the original metal fan - removed for safety} This IS a $15K car.... Note the condition of the engine compartment, and I can assure you that it's as clean underneath as it is on top. I think the car Jerry pointed out is a far better buy...(if of course it checks out)... FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Guys: It sounds like the ZCCA needs to add another "Class" named "Personal Taste". This would be for cars that the owner has injected his personal taste into - without regard for any of the usual Competitive Show Car classes, class rules or judging standards. The Judgment in the Personal Taste Class - would then be based strictly on which car the Judges simply liked the best - who has done their thing - with the best Personal Taste. Or simply "display" the car in the Non-judged Class... At least at NY there were as many nice Z's outside as there were inside for the Judged Classes. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Ron: I'm not sure what the seller's reserve was for the car below - but it only brought a high bid of $12K. Check the detailing on this one, the documentation of the rebuild, the engine compartment etc etc etc. <a href=http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1972-Datsun-240-Z-Ground-Up-restortion_W0QQitemZ110088051231QQihZ001QQcategoryZ6187QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem TARGET=NEW> Nice White 72 </a> Like I said, I don't know where the above seller sat his reserve - but I've written him to ask.{matter of fact I just called him too} I'll guess he was thinking $18K to $20K... but it didn't sell - and now he may grab $15K. He has to have $25K or more in it... No question it is easy to spend $15K refreshing or restoring a 240-Z - but when you do it yourself you know what's under that shinny new paint - and if you put that kind of money into one - your going to have a far far better result. You are also more than likely to document the process with full before and after photo's and a box of receipts. Shop, shop, and shop - sooner or later you will find a 240-Z that someone else has done correctly and who has put well over $25K into - that can be bought for $15K cash. A truly solid #3 Car... FWIW, Carl

What you see here is "maybe" a good body, maybe a good paint job and maybe a few good parts. Almost everything else needs to be restored. Wrong Carpet Cracked Dash Wrong Door Panel - drivers side Wrong Steering Wheel Wrong Radio Wrong Wheels Engine Compartment Looks like a Flood Car. If the paint and body are actually done to OEM or better quality - it's a $7K car at best. Then you'd have to spend another $7K to put everything else right. Photo's of the undercarriage? Does he have photo documentation of the process used for the body and paint? Original Engine? Documentation of mileage and service history - owner history etc. Window sticker, original bill of sale, owner manual, service booklet? This car is a long way from a $15K 240-Z. Worth a close look - but IMHO already over priced at $8K By the way - who is bidding on this car so early? Do you know people that bid seriously before the last few seconds? (other than the sellers brother, mother, friends?) FWIW, Carl B.

New pictures show more rust than before... $3,500.00 max... and then only after close inspection.... this one has been ridden hard and put away wet. FWIW, Carl B.

Someone got a super bargain... Carl B.

They should bolt on with no problem - and it seems they did. The latches should work and it seems they did... The problem is - they won't seal, because the two doors have different shapes where they fit inside the bodyshell. The shape of the door frame above the rockers is different... Driven at speed you'll hear the difference and when it rains you'll see the difference. Someone on this forum went through this a couple years ago. Carl B.

Hi David: It the data tag is still in the engine compartment - It would be interesting to know the original engine serial number - Should be something close to L28-00200. Carl B.

You never know until you look at the car - BUT - if it's as presented it should bring $5K to $6K. Front bumper looks bent - it will need a complete refresh but should be a good car to start a refresh on... Carl B.

An update to this thread... Bryan rightful points out that his repo, was patterned after the shift boot supplied... So it is more than likely that the NOS shift boot on E-Bay and the one Kats pictured - is of a later style/design/manufacturer... So maybe we don't want the newer style... and maybe my comments were poorly thought out. So now it's time for everyone - including me - to go dig out the old shift boots and see what we come up with. I think I have a NOS boot that I ordered years ago, stuck away somewhere.. So I'll be trying to dig that one out... FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Gang: If you'd like to see a couple of seconds of the BRE Baja Z, as raced by Ventura Datsun in the MINT 400 in 1974 or 75 here is an old video clip... BRE sold the car in 74... Don't know if Ventura Datsun sponsored the Z or just held it and raced it themselves. Not sure who the Driver/Navigator are... still researching it at this point. Amazing what shows up on the Internet... <a href=http://www.photoahead.com/old/zcar.wmv TARGET=NEW> See: Venture Datsun MINT 400</a> FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Sad... 134 designs and not one I would spend my money on... Carl B.

Hi Marty: Agreed - the first prototype is pretty nice, but I believe with a few minor changes it could be better. Looking at the pictures from Kats and the NOS one on E-Bay.. it looks like the repop's grain pattern is somewhat off the mark, there is no rubber grommet supplied, and the stitching at the top goes too far up. The OEM product has little tucks at the very top... most likely to put less strain on the stitching.. Perhaps a small order of the proper size grommets from Badgerrubber.net. (if you supplied them with the complete spec.'s they might have the exact thing)... and a second prototype stitched up to look a little more like the OEM part would work some of this out.. and result in an even finer reproduction. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Bruce (everyone) That is a very common question usually ask by people who don't own Show Cars. The real problem is that even if they receive an answer, they don't seem to comprehend it, and they keep asking over and over... The truth is, to an extent you answered your own question in your last sentence. If Show Cars didn't exist and all that was left is "drivers"... in a few years no one would know what that ratty old driver, now driven into the ground, or turned into another wreck on the road - looked like when it was new, nor would they understand why anyone would want to drive such an old rag in the first place... FWIW, Carl B.

We Do - Right here in Florida...you just have to get out early in the morning, and before the Tourists Season begins. :devious: Carl B.

Hi Jerry: As far as I know - none of the 69 production, nor early 70 production HLS30's had the HS30's heater control panels in them. I don't know why - but I do seem to recall one version where the "off" was in the center position, then Room and Heat were at the ends... Might have been on the later 280'z when Factory Air was available... The 69 production HLS30's heater control panels,radio face plates and ashtray lids were gray - while the later panels were black.

Interesting side note - BRE called it a "spreader-bar" back in 73. Gives you an indication of it's purpose and set-up as far as they were concerned. FWIW, Carl B.

Interesting - the Stickers are quite different... Carl B.

Hi Randy: That TR-6 is stunning... I've always admired the styling on the car. Also good to hear that the Z is finishing up within your expected schedule... We're all waiting on pictures.. You really should plan to take some time and drive that TR-6 down for the Sebring 12 Hour mid March... Nothing like camping out in the infield with a Classic Sports Car at the 12 Hour. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Avery: I pretty much agree with what has been said - only want to add a few points... When water runs down the rear hatch glass - it pools up in the corners at the bottom. IF the rubber seal is actually sealed to the glass at that point - the water sits there and evaporates. IF NOT - then the water runs under the rubber seal and down into the window channel... where it sits until the paint fails and the metal starts to rust. So the first point is that you really need to get a new seal, and have it properly installed on the glass, then in the deck lid. Those spots in the corners around the rear deck lid glass/rubber - MIGHT still be very small or they might get larger under the seal.... At any rate they will NOT get better, only worse. They will also get worse quickly! Given the current rarity and associated high price of a solid Series I rear deck lid - I would highly recommend that you order a new rear glass seal, then pull the rear glass out of the deck lid. Take the deck lid to a good body shop and have them strip it - metal patch any small holes or area's that require repair, then repaint it. You need to look closely at the very bottom "lip" of the deck lid (where it overhangs the rear tail light finisher panels) . Make sure it's not starting to rust and if it is NOW is the time to fix it. It would seem that rust free Series I deck lids are now over $400.00 if you can find one for sale .. so you really do want to address these issues now, before they have much of a chance to worse.. See: <a href=http://zhome.com/Classic/CommonZRust/RustPrevention240Z.htm TARGET=NEW> Hidden Rust Area's Of The 240-Z</a>. To stop surface rust - you can sand the area to remove most of the surface rust - then treat the area with Ospho (a mild phosphoric acid solution that chemically converts Iron Oxide to Iron Phosphate). Ospho is a brand name - carried by most Automotive Paint Stores/Suppliers. Once the chemical conversion is complete - the area can be primed and painted. good luck, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Gang: The "weight" listed on the sticker under the hood - is the weight to be exerted by a mass, on the end of a lever, that is swing into the front bumper - to simulate the weight of the car traveling, depending on the requirement at the time, either 2.5 mph or 5 mph. Kinetic Energy released if the car hit an immovable object at either 2.5mph or 5mph.... The Vehicle Curb Weight is printed on a sticker in the glove box... required to be there by law for 1973, but was in place before that on the 240-Z's. Along with the tire inflation pressures... FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Mohammed: Great to see you have the car on the road and are enjoying it. Thanks for Posting the Video... regards, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com