Carl Beck

The main problems are 1) you'd have to have a flat bed to pick it up and you couldn't have it shipped without wheels and tires. 2) no mention of the condition of the most important parts is made.. that being the floorboards and frame rails... FWIW, Carl

Hi Chris: I believe I did read the first Post - carefully and completely. A "long block" is not a complete running engine. A long block does not contain, nor include the many items I ask about. Nor does the term "motor" more fully define what's being offered. Call your local Nissan Dealer (or any source that sells engines) and ask them exactly what you get if you order a "short block" or a "long block". I simply noted that naviathan specifically used the term "long block" as well as qualified it by saying from the Valve Cover to the Oil Pan - and since he seems to be involved in the process of building the engine - I felt that he certainly knew the difference between a long block and a complete running engine; other wise he would have said something to the effect that you get the complete engine along with all hardware necessary to install and run it in your Z. In terms of value - the long block would account for about 35% of the total cost... If they are offering the complete engine as set up, running and raced... the value of the tickets would be much higher as long as the price of the tickets stays the same. Just didn't want there to be any misunderstanding, especially since naviathan wanted to make it abundantly clear.. FWIW, Carl

If it will run a hundred miles with no problems, it will most likely run a thousand with no problems. Nonetheless, I'd take something to cut the heater hoses with, so you can loop them back and by-pass the heater if need be. I'd also take a fuel pump as a spare. Check and or change all the rubber fuel lines... if you haven't already done that. Old hoses and/or the fuel pump going out is about the only thing that's ever put the Z to the roadside If you have Mag's... make sure you have standard lug nuts to mount the spare if needed, and check to see that the spare has air. Drive safe, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

I ordered the Nissan OEM weather strips - only with the Pinch Welt attached. The corner at the "B" pillar is mitered... and about six inches past the point at which the weather stripping turns down at the "A" pillar - there is a splice. Along the threshold - the OEM parts have a couple of half moon cut outs, on the outside edge of the rubber seal..... but no splices. I followed another thread on the door weather-stripping and the use of the term "genuine" left me wondering exactly what that meant... Did your parts come in Nissan packaging? When MSA uses the term "genuine" does that really mean "genuine type".. or does it mean Nissan OEM parts? FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

So you win ONLY the Long Block? What happens to the rest of the engine? Intake,Fuel Injection System, Engine Management System, Turbo, Turbo Exhaust System, Intercoolers, Various sensors and valves, Fan's etc etc etc - will they be available for Sale in case someone wants to buy the entire - complete - set up? thanks, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hello Curtis: If you have HS30 00213, your car would most likely have a build date of 10/70 or 11/70. As it took between two and three months to get cars from the factory to and then into Australia, it would most likely have been inspected at the Port in Australia around 01/71 to 02/71. Let me know what the original engine serial number is, and we might be able to pin the build date down a little farther. The original engine serial number is stamped into the data tag located under the hood - and the engine serial number should be something like L24-17xxx to L24-18xxxx. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

More importantly Bill - did you get Wayne to turn his Sponsors over to you with the car? <vbg> Carl B.

Hi Mike 9 everyone) While at present there is no law that requires drivers to keep right except to pass, obstructing the flow of traffic is not legal in Florida. In the film, all the cars to the left of the far right hand lane could have been ticketed for obstructing traffic, even if they were driving the Posted Speed Limit. The law gives the Highway Patrol certain "criteria" that the drivers would have to meet - such as having more than 20 cars backed up behind them, having every reasonable chance to move right and get out of the way etc... but the law allows the Trooper to use his judgment in such cases and the courts usually stand behind the Troopers. Last year both houses of the Florida Congress passed a bill that required people to keep right except to pass on all limited access highways. The intention was a) to allow the orderly flow of traffic and thus provide the safest environment for all drivers, to reduce the incidences of Road Rage caused by inconsiderate drivers. Our Governor vetoed the bill saying that he didn't think people should be given a ticket for driving the speed limit. FWIW, Carl

Hi Chris: Yes... You could buy either or any as follows.. from 72 forward.. Rear Window Shade Rear Window Shade Kit - (the "kit" came with the Racing Mirrors and was included in the SAP on the Black Pears) Racing Mirrors I was just trying to replace one on my Blue Z today... Carl

Hi Mark: A really good body man "could" straighten that hood.. enough... then fill it with bondo... and for a couple months it might "look" fine, if the fit didn't matter too much ... But you wouldn't want to keep it... Time for a new hood... sorry to see it happen.. Carl B.... Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

I see an update to your Membership Data in 99... but nothing on the cars. This would be a good time to send it again..You can send it directly to me at beck@becksystems.com For Each Car the following must be complete VIN: Build Date: (from the Drivers Door Jam) Original Color: (Ext/Int) and current color if different: Original Engine Serial Number: (from the Data Tag under the hood) Name: City/State e-mail Comments: IZCC Membership #346 Public Register Yes/No?

Hi Guys: Series I - built 10/69 and into early 01/71 Vents on Rear Deck Series II - built 01/71 and into 08/71 Vents moved to side of car Series III - the 1972 Model year Z's.. 08/71 - 08/72 type B tranny, flip forward seats etc Series IV - the 1973 Model year Z's... emissions carbs... 08/72 - 08/73 Dash: Series I and II had the same dash - with no indent for the flasher decal/sticker Series III - indent for flasher decal/sticker & cig. lighter moved to dash Series IV - larger opening for lighted, pull type hazzard warning switch FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hello webteg: When it comes to the strength of the gear box - A or B are about the same actually. The "W" Warner Type Synchro's are brass, shift smoother but wear a little more quickly (80K to 100K miles), the "C" Servo or Porsche Style are steel, shift a little less smoothly but wear a little longer (100K to 120K miles). Nissan Competition recommended the "C" type for competition use. The "B" type transmissions were introduced for the 1972 Model Year 240-Z's and 510's.. which started production around 09/71. The truth of the matter is your major concern should be with the gear ratio's you will need for the tracks you run, more so than the strength of the gear boxes and secondarily with the availability of replacement or repair parts for either gear box. Many of the parts for the "A" box are getting hard to find today - especially the gears themselves. We have a listing of the various gear boxes and the standard ratio's on the Z Car Home Page (scrol down to the transmissions below the rear end listing) see: <a href=http://zhome.com/ZCMnL/tech/GearRatios.html TARGET=NEW>http://zhome.com/ZCMnL/tech/GearRatios.html</a> According to the Nissan Competition Dept.: When installing any of the 5spd. transmissions into the sedans the gearshift lever hole must be moved rearward in the chassis. Also Part Number 11341-N2020 must be used for the rear transmission mount (or the existing mount must be modified). On any of the vehicles, the stock driveshaft must be shortened and re-balanced. The shifter kit Part Number 99996-E3030 must be used on all late style transmissions (Type . The early Roadster style 5spd. can be adapted for use in the 510 - 08111-22210 Bolt 2ea. 11341-21030 Rear Transmission Mount 30401-22010 Bell Housing 30501-22010 Throwout Bearing Sleeve 37000-22010 Drive Shaft for installing transmisson in 510 only == = = = end Nissan pub - - - - - - - - - - It looks like the bottom line is - you are far better off getting the later style "B" transmission, as it comes with the correct Bell Housing and you can easily have your drive shaft shortened and re-balanced. The special shifter kit mentioned above - is really about the shift lever being bent into a more or less "S" shape - you can just bent the straight shifter to suit... See: <a href=http://zhome.com/ZCMnL/tech/69-83TrannyShifterDrawing.jpg TARGET=NEW>http://zhome.com/ZCMnL/tech/69-83TrannyShifterDrawing.jpg</a> and See: <a href=http://zhome.com/ZCMnL/tech/AandBtranny.htm TARGET=NEW>http://zhome.com/ZCMnL/tech/AandBtranny.htm</a> For a picture of the Competition Shifter - this will give you an idea of how much the straight shift lever would have to be bent. good luck... Carl Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

As I recall - there was a Z that did 167mph (or something close to that) at the Salt Lake a few years ago. A 280Z 2+2 with a turbo L28.. Newman/Sharp car (IMSA - GTU) was clocked at 156 mph on the back side of Daytona if I remember correctly - (but the turbo Porsches still blew by him out there.. I think the 280ZX 2+2 is the best body for the Salt Lake (of the older cars).. Yes a 200mph Z could be done - for something less than $85K... FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

If you have the installation instructions - can you scan them for me please? thanks, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Web Forms some times get screw up in transmission or sometimes for some reason the just don't transmit at all... You can contact our Membership Chairman directly..via e-mail: "Tony Fruzza" aktar@cosanostra.net thanks, Carl

VIN:HLS30 012746 Production Date:10 / 70 Color Body /Int :919 Yellow/ Black Orig.Eng.Number:L24 16254 Owner:Arne Berglund City/State/Cntry:Springfield, OR IZCC Member#: Comments:A/T converted to 4spd. e-mail:e21graymarket%40comcast.net Date Registered:07 May 06 <a href=http://zhome.com/IZCC/ZRegisters/classic.htm TARGET=NEW>http://zhome.com/IZCC/ZRegisters/classic.htm</a> first submitted 23 Nov 05 - missing original engine number second submit - 17 Mar. 06 - OK third submit - 07 May 06 - Ok Why the delay between March and May.... da.. I somehow missed it on the update in April...sorry... With over 15,000 members in the IZCC - and about 200 e-mail messages per day (it seems that way anyway).. I do get behind at times and things can drop thru the crack... If they do.. just e-mail and let me know.. no problem FWIW, Carl

That's easy - just buy a couple of them... work on one and drive the other. Two really nice 240-Z's still cost less than a new one... Carl B.

Yes - the original stage play "My Fair Lady" was a musical. As I recall - Mr. Kawamata saw it either on his first visit to the US in 57/58 or his second in 62... Oh...da... I see your point. I was following the original statement about the report that he saw the movie. If the DVD says only "the musical"... it would be technically correct.. as both the original stage play and the movie were called "musicals" Carl

The DVD is wrong... it was the original Stage Play. FWIW, Carl

Hi Alan: Actually Mr. Katayama's speech was delivered to the Nissan Emplyees at Nissan USA HQ - not to the sales staff. It was reported in John B. Rae's book, and was never advertising copy. Nonetheless, your resentment of Mr. K strikes me as misplaced. Just too funny Alan - you crack me up. I'll ask and/or suggest again, as I have many times before - why don't you publish the entire story of the Z Car as you see it. I'm sure we would all find that far more interesting... FWIW, Carl

Hi Alan (everyone): I believe there are many reasons for that situation and it's not really advertising copy nor sales flannel from Nissan. Rather it was started with the first books written on the subject of the Z Car - many by English authors, who read a lot of the stories reported by the American Magazines and blended that with a dose of British destain for the Japanese Auto Industry. From it's beginning the Japanese Auto Industry has been very closely linked to both the US and British Auto Industry. Japan started well behind either of the two countries - and in an effort to modernize they sought the technology and designs from the more advanced nations. A quick review of DAT/Datson/Nissan/Datsun's progression may give a clue as to why so many authors believed that most of the things coming from Nissan were copies of everyone else products and/or the work of hired designers, produced by machine tooling and technologies imported from GB and the USA. Indeed when they needed to start production of vehicles to supply Japan in 1925 - they invited the American Automobile Manufacturers to build plants in Japan. Then once they had the technology, the manufacturing processes, machine tools and a trained work force - they kicked the American manufactures out... This was seen by many as an all to typical and deceptive move by the Japanese. The fact that Nissan re-labeled the designs and entire products of others as "Nissan" made them appear less than forth coming to eyes in the Western world. With designs purchased, licensed or simply borrowed Nissan consistently presented an image of itself that many in the auto industry found downright misleading. (see 1937 in the summary for example). This explains to a large degree why so many were quick to believe the Goertz Myth.. They simply did not see the revolution within Nissan that was taking place from 1965 forward. What follows is my abbreviated summary - of the summary in Appendix B of: THE GRAHAM LEGACY; Graham-Page from 1932 by: Michael Keller Appendix B: by Bill McCall (covers the Nissan Motors connection) for those interested it's a good read.. you can order a copy from Amazon.com 1912 - Satoro Hashimoto, upon his return to Japan from the U.S.A. - creates Kaishinsha Company to manufacture and sell D.A.T. automobiles. 1923 - the Great Earth Quake completely demolishes Japan's public transportation systems. American companies are subsequently invited to set up manufacturing facilities in Japan, by the Japanese Government. 1925 - At the invitation of the Japanese Government - Ford sets up production facilities in Yokohama.(average production 10,000 units per year). 1927 - At the invitation of the Japanese Government - GM set up production in Osaka (average production 10,000 units per year) 1927 - At the invitation of the Japanese Government - Chrysler had also set up a smaller assembly plant in Japan. 1931 - Tabata Imono Group purchases Kaishinsha - and starts production of Son of DAT -DATSON. A copy of the British Austin 7 1931 - Japanese Army invades Manchuria. Army realizes they must have durable trucks. and buys them from US manufacturers. Later in the war Nissan will open production facilities in Manchuria with slave labor. 1933 - Reorganization results in "Nissan Motors" formation. This industry leader in Japan sold 650 vehicles that year in Japan. Gisuke Aikawa, President of Nissan Motors , producing less than 500 vehicles that year - was eager to produce larger cars and trucks. Aikawa was already familiar with American technological abilities, having previously imported engineering expertise, as well as a considerable amount of American machinery and equipment for earlier manufacturing endeavors (prior to his assignment at Nissan). From the beginning of Nissan Motor Company Ltd. several American engineers, led by William R. Gorham, played key roles in developing Nissan's operations. 1933 - The War Ministry and Ministry of Commerce and Industry in Japan call for a partial nationalization of the Japanese automobile industry. 1935 - The Japanese politicians draft legislation to assure the success of domestic automobile manufacturers.. and drive the American firms out of Japan. (the Automobile Industry Control Law). 1936 - February. Joseph Graham, of Graham-Page Motors Corp., meets Gisuke Aikawa, President of Nissan Motors Ltd. in Japan for the first time. Mr. Graham was in Japan representing L.O.F. in which he was a major shareholder as well. During this meeting, Graham suggests that Graham-Page would be interested in providing designs and equipment to Nissan. The brief meeting between Graham and Aikiawa would lead too a far-reaching agreement between the two disparate auto makers. 1936 - April 20... Nissan and Graham-Page sign an agreement. Nissan purchases from Graham-Page: - the design and the entire production line for the complete line of the 1934 Graham Crusader. - all machinery, equipment, fixtures etc etc. for the Model 73 Engine - since the engine was no longer in production in the US - Graham-Page (GP) was to produce and completely assemble 4 test engines. - - GP to produce 500 cylinder blocks, 150 completely assembled, and the remainder in various stages of assembly. - GP to design and produce a prototype stake body, cab-over Truck, and provide Nissan with complete engineering drawings, parts lists and specifications needed by Nissan to produce the truck. - GP to provide technical assistance, engineering support to set up an operational production line. Nissan corporate records indicate that throughout the negotiations they felt the Graham-Page representatives were sincere and ethical in the business dealings,. Representatives of the Michigan firm exhibited no fear or hesitancy in regard to helping the Japanese establish and guide their new industry. While in the US - GP representatives introduced Nissan representatives to many of their prime suppliers. Deals were made with Spicer Manufacturing in Toledo, Ohio to supply Nissan with front and rear axles as well as transmissions, clutches and propeller shafts with universal joints. Nissan also contracted with Bohnalite to supply aluminium pistons. 1936 - May - Nissan began to set up an engine block production line. The firms initial attempts at casting engine blocks were totally unsuccessful. Multiple failures convinced Aikawa to once again seek outside help. Nissan contracted with Ferro Machine Casting Company. Nissan then purchased equipment needed to establish a new casting shop, and the American firm was farther required to instruct the Japanese engineers how to operate and maintain the new casting equipment. A team of six Ferro engineers and specialists were sent to Yokohama to assist Nissan with the start up. The single change Nissan made to the original Graham-Page design was superficial. The Ferro name and numbers were removed from the left side of the block and NISSAN was cast into the right side. Construction of the new casting facility was begun in the fall of 36 and completed in 37. The first block was cast on March 25th, 1937. 1937 - The complete Graham-Page assembly line, tooling, equipment, technical drawings arrive in Japan and are set up for Nissan's production of the Crusader. By March of 1937 Nissan had completed the manufacture of two Nissan Model 70 passenger sedan and one Model 80 Truck. By years end 490 automobiles were produced. To convince the Japanese military that they had the capacity to build sturdy and dependable trucks suitable for military use Nissan produced a 27 minute film to illustrate how the Model 80 Trucks were manufactured. Proudly in the film, the new Nissan factory is shown on the banks of Tokyo Bay, the interior scenes were of the design studio. The large studio contained full size drawings of the truck as well as clay models and wooden bucks; the clear impression to be drawn was that the truck was entirely of Nissan design. The next images revealed the research and quality control labs established by Graham-Page staff, the same impression intended. The foundry views showed a detailed progression of crankshaft manufacture, from forging to trimming to balancing. Engine blocks are shown being bored, heads planed and tolerances checked. Huge American made 1,500 ton Hamilton presses are shown pressing roof sections, fenders, hoods and frame rails. The engine that came to Nissan from Graham-Page, an 84HP, in-line, seven main bearing, 224cid six cylinder provided the heart of Nissan's commercial line for several decades, as well as the Japanese Army's Trucks. 1941 - Japan attacks Pearl Harbor, which ultimately leads to the total devastation of Japan. 1945 - Japan surrenders to the Allied Forces and General Douglas MacArthur assumes leadership of the country as Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers (SCAP). 1947 - Dr. E. Edwards Deming becomes Advisor in statistical quality control techniques to the SCAP. http://www.deming.org/theman/biography.html 1949 - Nissan receives permission from SCAP to resume production, Production of trucks using the Graham-Page engine (previously tab'd the model A by Nissan) are primary products. 1950 - At the invitation of the Union of Japanese Scientists and Engineers, Dr. Deming becomes Teacher and Consultant (1950, 51,52, 55, 60 and 1965) The Deming prize was instituted by the Union of Japanese Scientists and Engineers and is awarded each year in Japan to a statistician for contributions to statistical theory. The Deming prize for application is awarded to a company for improved use of statistical theory in organization, consumer research, design of product and production. { Dr. Deming becomes the recipient of the Second Order Medal of the Sacred Treasure, from the Emperor of Japan, 1960, for improvement of quality and of Japanese economy, through the statistical control of quality.} 1951 - Nissan introduces it's first four wheel drive vehicle - modeled after the US Jeep's and using the same Graham-Page engine the vehicle is known as the 4W-60 and the 4W-70. A similar but larger vehicle using the same engine was introduced in 52. The vehicles were the forerunners of the Nissan Patrol. 1953 - Minor changes to Nissan's "A" engine, increased HP to 95HP at 3,600RPM - this became the Nissan "N" engine. 1955 - Nissan hired American automotive engineer Donald D. Stone to increase the horsepower of the "N" engine. By increasing the bore and incorporating a few other changes he was able to produce a 242 cid engine with a 105HP rating. This engine was designated the "NC" engine and had an "L-head" design, it was used for four years by Nissan. 1957 - Mr. Kawamata, as President of Nissan Motors, outlined his Strategic Plan For Nissan's Growth by exporting cars to the USA. (as did most of the Japanese Auto Industry - it wasn't just Nissan). Nissan needed to move to mass production, so that unit prices could be brought down and a domestic auto market could be grown in Japan. - - - - - -end summary -- - By the way - Mr. Gorham, Mr. Graham and Dr. Deming are all highly regarded in the Japanese Auto Industry to this day - and that is not just another American bias. I wonder, in your review of the books and articles wrtten by the Japanese authors - how many of them write about these men and their contributions to Nissan. While Mr Hiroshi Iida may well outline in his book - how he designed the Nissan L series engine - the simple fact that it was seen by most as an all but exact copy of the MB/Prince design - could be the reason most authors didn't bother to look for who within Nissan was responsible for the copy, but knowing Nissan's past practices - they simply stated that they saw it as a copy. Perhaps - if Mr. Lida has outlined what parts of his design were awarded patients - that perception of it being a copy could be over-come. FWIW Carl

Hi Victor (everyone) Gee - I had to go back and look at that Graphic... the dividing line is 1964, yes prior to the Prince Merger that started in 65 and was finalized by Jan. 66, - - but if you read the accompanying article - at the end of 64 was when Goertz left Nissan and the Nissan 2000GT/Yamaha A550X joint project was canceled by Nissan. I think you might have confused "Nissan's entire history" with the progression of the design of Nissan's line of sports cars. The graphic has to do with the sports cars design... OR - from your statement, should I guess that you DO belive Mr. Goertz is the original designer of the Datsun 240-Z? In effect, that design wasn't thrown in the dumpster, but rather carried forward by Mr. Matsuo???? I guess that is possible - Mr. Matsuo tells us that he was originally thinking of another 4cylinder sports car and many would argue that his initial concept drawings do look more than a little like the Yamaha A550X. According to Mr. Matsuo he never had seen anything related to that previous design effort.... thus the Nissan trash bin. If nothing from the previous effort was used - where else would it go? The Z Car most certainly did kill the roadsters as well. The graphic is really intended to convey an overall concept that Nissan made a major break with the past, when they reorganized their internal design department beginning with 1965. Farther to show that with the introduction of the Datsun 510 and then followed by the Z Car - Nissan was also building a huge marketing and distribution system to support US Sales by 1970. Nissan actually began to gather customer requirements for US customers in 1958. Below is part of a summary I drafted from among other places from the book: NISSAN/DATSUN A History Of Nissan Motor Corporation in U.S.A 1960-1980 by John B. Rae. Mr. Rae worked closely with Nissan Executives in Japan and Nissan's Historian as he worked on this book. - - - - - part of summary ....starts... 1957 - Mr. Kawamata, as President of Nissan Motors, outlined his Strategic Plan For Nissan's Growth by exporting cars to the USA. (as did most of the Japanese Auto Industry - it wasn't just Nissan). Nissan needed to move to mass production, so that unit prices could be brought down and a domestic auto market could be grown in Japan. Nissan makes a survey of American market prospects through two of its major Japanese trading corporations, Marubeni and Mitsubishi. In November of 57 Mr. Wakatsuki of Marubeni suggests that Nissan show its cars at the L.A. Import Auto Show in 58. 1958 - Mr. Yutaka Katayama, a Marketing Manager for Nissan Motors suggests and gains approval to enter Datsuns in the Moble Gas - Round Australia Trials. Finishing first in Class the little Datsuns draw world wide attention as well as add encouragement to Nissan's Export goals. 1958 March - In anticipation of sales to the US - Nissan sends Mr. Uno, General Manager of the North American Department, Mr. Hara, General Manager of the Planning Department and several engineers to the United States to initiate arrangements for testing Datsun cars and dealing with whatever technical problems that might come up. {Mr. Hara, later becomes Head of Nissan Design, and in 65 Mr. Matsuo's boss} 58 Oct. - Ray Lemke of San Diego, California becomes the first Datsun Dealer in the USA when he accepts a Datsun as part of his consignment of German cars from his Distributor, Woolverton Motors. 58 Nov. - Koichi Iwata of Nissan's Export Department brings two cars and a pick-up truck to the L.A. International Auto Show. The vehicles were modified in the hope of making them more suitable to the American market - compression was raised to 7.5:1 giving them 37HP from the 988cc OHV engine. (this was the British Austin engine). Iwata, attending that show - reports back to Kawamata (President of Nissan) that the cars are TOOO SLOW and UNDERPOWERED for AMERICA... Kawamata and other Nissan executives are shocked to hear that!! Iwata's report results in the formation of a "Special Project Team" to study changes in design needed to make Datsuns more suitable for the American and European markets. This Study and Planning, Iwata observes, was a very significant beginning. Much of the success of Nissan and other Japanese automobile manufacturers in the United States has been due to their willingness to study and respond to the conditions of the American market. Nissan far more than others except Volkswagon, grasp the seemingly elementary principle that if they wanted to sell cars in America, then they had better find out what kind of cars American's wanted to buy, and design and build accordingly. - - - end summary extract.......... The "capabilities" and "accomplishments" of Nissan Motors Ltd. are really founded far more upon building manufacturing facilities, controlling production processes and marketing products though distribution and service systems, than it is based on the original technology or design of their previous products, many of which were licensed copies of others or outright purchase of the designs of others. Where designs were not licensed nor purchased - far too many were as g72s20 originally said; " "combinations of "inspiration" and economic pragmatism."" FWIW, Carl

I don't see anything - what did you do yesterday? thanks, Carl

Hi Guys: "Does body filler bond better to metal or an epoxy primer?" - Really isn't the question most of us should ask - is it? It would appear that it did bond well to the epoxy... and we know that if properly applied, to a properly prepared surface - the epoxy primers bond well enough to metals. I think the question we would want to ask is - "what is the best practice, or the best process to use if we want the results of our work (or dollars spent) to last the longest.?" No matter what they name it (Metall etc) - nor what they call it (Metal reinforced, fiber reinforced, etc)- all modern two part body fillers are in fact man made plastic products. If they are two part compounds, one part being the resin and the other being the hardner... once you mix them together a chemical action is started and it never really stops until the plastic compounds fall apart again (granted that may be 20 or 30 years later...). If you put any plastic filler on bare sheet metal - because the plastic compound keeps drying and drying (hardening) it will draw moisture out of the air and though the sheet-metal. Sheet metal is very porous and as rust forms on it and the oxidation process proceeds, the metal becomes even more porous. As the body fillers draw moisture though the metal - they swell and that is why body fillers bubble up under your paint a year or three years later; especially if the opposite side of the sheet metal can not be properly sealed somehow. All plastic body fillers should only be applied on top of something that seals the metal from the filler. Epoxy primers will do that... so a thin layer of plastic filler, applied on top of the epoxy primers is prevented from drawing moisture through the sheet metal - and if it's then sealed from the top - with a sealer, or epoxy primer, or the final coats of paint - it should be fine for many years... The more time you can allow between applying the plastic body fillers - and performing the final sanding and paint application - the better. That gives the body filler more time to dry and shrink before it's under the final paint coats. I believe that the bottom line is - putting plastic body fillers directly on bare metal should be avoided at all costs. FWIW Carl Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com