Carl Beck

Allen T wrote: AT> At the very least, these figures show that the LHD cars were not AT> produced "first", and that there were indeed RHD cars being AT> pre-productionised at the same time. Hi Allen: I fail to see how you arrive at that conclusion. Kats numbers show 1 Domestic and 1 Export built in May (factory prototype). It also shows 2 Domestic and 2 Export in July - when Kats says the "pre-production" cars were started. That is no proof of which was "first". Also important to note that the "RHD" cars were Fairlady Z's. The Z Cars for Export were Left Hand Drive models - No production Right Hand Drive 240-Z's were "produced" until very late Jan or Feb of 1970. There are no 1969 RHD 240-Z's. AT> In fact, up to November 1969 AT> more RHD prototypes had been made than LHD prototypes. That's AT> nice to see, as it might help to get the message across with regard AT> to the LHD cars NOT being the "First" as is sometimes claimed. "Pre-productionized", "prototyped"... we'll never know for sure - what matters is "Production" as in "sold to the public". Given that the Fairlady Z was a RHD model - I don't believe that there was ever a question that they were both prototyped and produced at the same time as the LHD 240-Z. (who questioned that?). Both the Fairlady and Left Hand Drive Datsun 240-Z's were on display at the Tokyo Motor Show in 69. (NO RIGHT HAND DRIVE 240-Z's were there however - not in any coverage I've been able to find to date). As I said in an earlier reply - if you or anyone have photographs of "prototype" RHD "240-Z's" I'd sure love to see them. All the images of any "prototypes" of a 240-Z that I have found are LHD models. The "claim" of being "First" I believe applies correctly to the statements that follow: 1. The first 500 Datsun 240-Z's were produced in 1969 (might be a few more than 500 in fact;-). 2. No Right Hand Drive Datsun 240-Z's were "produced" in 1969. 3. The first Right Hand Drive (HS30) 240-Z was produced in late Jan or Feb of 1970. (HS30 00004 was the first one sold to the public as far as we know so far). Given that it's original engine was not produced until Jan of 1970 - the car could not have been built in 69. (the owner's research agrees with mine by the way - it was sent to Australia). Allen also provided some interesting photo's - thanks. Can you tell us any more about "when" they were taken? Interesting that they seem to have snow tires on all four wheels - and the guys are dressed in winter coats in the one picture... were both pictures taken in Phoenix? (maybe they took them to the mountains?). I have been told by a 25 year Datsun Parts Manager (1968 when he started to work for Datsun) - that the early 240-Z Parts Catalog stated that the rubber strips were added to the HLS30 Z's at HLS30 00013 - cars prior to that were fitted with the domestic front bumper (no rubber strips). So far no one has found a copy of the first few revisions of the 240-Z Parts Catalogs for me... Ron Johnson at Nissan Motorsports said he remembered that being the case - but couldn't find any documentation for me. There is also a rumor/story that a few pre-production Z's were sent to Nissan Canada for winter testing - As HLS30 00009 thru 00015 are un-accounted for.... the pictured Z's could be any one of those I suppose.. Kind regards, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com 69, 70, 71, 72, 72 & 73 BRE Z (yes it was actually titled and sold as a 1969 Datsun Cpe).

Hi Gang: I'm joining this discussion a bit late... so I'm trying to catch up. I've coped Kats entire Post - so I can intersperse comments/questions. Great info Kats - can you tell us who or what section at the factory supplied it? I assume you are talking to Nissan HQ - not the actual factory (yes/no?). Kats> Hello everyone, Kats> I would like to show a data which I got from the factory. I Kats> hope this will help someone's knowlege and questions Kats> clear. Kats> Unfortunatly it does not mention about HLS and HS Kats> seperatetly, it says Kats> only"E" for export model Kats> means HLS and HS. I would not assume that it means "either" - No "Production" (meaning cars sold to the public) HS30 240-Z's were produced until very late Jan or Feb of 1970. I have never seen any pictures of "prototype" Right Hand Drive 240-Z's in any of the books written on the subject either. (has anyone got a reference to one?). I have seen Prototype "Fairlady Z's" in RHD of course... but no 240-Z's. Kats> Also "D" for domestic model (JAPANESE)S30,PS30... Kats> Here they are, Kats> 1969 May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Kats> "D" 1 1 2 6 9 48 214 688 Kats> "E" 1 0 2 1 2 52 388 97 Kats> Some notes: Kats> On 10th Oct 1969, 2 silver 240z(HLS) arrived at NMC Kats> gardena california,for 3 months /16000miles road test. Kats> Actualy they were in each big wooden boxes!! They are Kats> preproduction #14 and #15. Kats> This means they are 14th and 15th build in the factory, Kats> they are not HLS30-00014 or 15. Rumor has it that several were sent to Canada also for pre-production Winter Testing. No verification of that yet. Kats> I got these,so far. Factory said there is no person who Kats> knows much more details of production numbers Kats> currently. It is sad Nissan didn't keep any of the production records either. I wonder who/why they found what they did? Kats> I guess they are HLS30-00004 and 00005. Kats> Reasons are, #1 The factory said they made 3 Kats> prototypes for testing assembly line and seeing how Kats> workers build. They were not given serial numbers and Kats> they are the ones in May and Jun which you can see Kats> above. They called "KOJYOU SHISAKU" If I can transrate Kats> directly,"factory prototype" Kats> Alan, you can help me please follow up! Kats> So,HLS30-00001 and 00002 should be the ones produced Kats> in Jul. They are called "SEISAN SHISAKU" transrate Kats> directly "production prototype"? They are exactly same Kats> as 240Z, I mean everything (whole thing)same as 240Z Kats> which were sold to the public. OK - so you are saying you believe the VIN's/Chassis Numbers started at 01 with the production prototypes in July of 69... sounds reasonable to me. Kats> You can count 11 240Zs in Jul through Aug. NO - I count 3 240-Z's and 8 Fairlady Z's July through Aug. Kats> Accordingly #14 and #15 must be produced in Sep,right? No - HLS30 00004 and HLS30 00005 would have been produced in Sept. (right?). Since HLS30 00006 and HLS30 00008 had a production date of Oct. 69 - that would seem to come out right as far as Datsun 240-Z's would go. (HLS30 00006, 00007 and 00008 were used on the Show Car Circuit - first shown at the New York Auto Show - 00006 was dented and sent to Bob Sharp Racing (it's still being raced in Vintage events here - likewise 00008 went to Speckman for race prep - and is still being raced in Vintage events here - none were sold to the public). Your figures show 537 240-Z's produced in Oct. Nov. Dec. of 69. That would seem to agree with the usual "first 500 produced" claim. (we've documented the fact that cars past HLS30 00500 had 69 production dates attached). Kats> One more interesting view I was told, You can see the Kats> numbers in Dec is much less than in Nov. The factory said Kats> that happend due to found ploblems in test driving,they Kats> slow down nearly stopped production. That's very interesting. Indeed, we have only found 4 cars still in existence with Dec. Production Dates. #87, 89, 496 and 587. You will notice they are quite far out of perfect sequence. Kats> Major ploblems are big road noise,viblation from rear Kats> axle,and steering kicking back. Test crew reported that Kats> from U.S.A. and the factory in Japan tried to solve these Kats> ploblems. Interesting - my first Z was HLS30 001777. After I had it for about four months - the dealer installed a clamp with a rubber bumper on the steering rack - to reduce the steering kickback and front end shake (that what they told me at the time). Never noticed any vibration from the rear axle. The real problem they had was the L24 had been designed for sedan use - then put in the Z. The L24 originally had a six counterweighted crankshaft. When subjected to the higher RPM's used in the 240-Z's they had very bad harmonic balance problems. They cracked flywheels and blew clutch pressure plates. This was solved by going to an eight counterweighted crankshaft. The "fix" was introduced in the late Jan. 70 production cars (about the third week). (engine serial numbers L24- 03607 or newer received the newer cranks). Kats> Mid to late Dec,the factory managed to clear ploblems Kats> anyway(not perfect),they shipped corrected 240Z(with Kats> some development parts, not sure how many 240Zs) by Kats> air. Another problem we had with the very early cars were the shocks leaked every 6K miles. The Datsun Dealer rebuilt the shocks free of charge duing the first 12 months on my Z - without regard to mileage... (I put 68K miles on that Z in 18 months - so I was way over 12K miles long before the year was up). Kats> Then the factory went to full swing production,very busy. Kats> I will add some so try soon. Kats> Best regards, Kats> kats Great job Kats.. keep at it. kind regards, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com HLS30 00020 HLS30 00042 and others..

Oops... Sorry - I was following #212 and 279 ( I think it was - a green 69). It was the green 69 that had a red front end..etc. sorry for the confusion.. Carl B.

HI Carl S. (everyone) A friend requested additional pictures of this car - Looks like it's had either a full front clip put on - or it was actually red to begin with. Rust in the frame rails under the floorboards - and in general seems to be pretty screwed up. I'd much rather pay $6,500.00 for an original, solid, rust free example to use as the basis for a full restoration. In the end, you'd save twice that much getting the car done. I understand that the "buyer" backed out on the deal after inspecting the car.

Hi Guys: Mike G. ask me to check in on this discussion. For those who do not know me. I bought my first Datsun 240-Z in March of 1970 and I've owned and driven them ever since. I've been researching the history of the Datsun 240-Z, in a fairly serious fashion for about 15 years now. I've compiled a listing of hundreds of VIN/Build Date/Original Engine Serial Numbers for both the Right Hand and Left Hand Drive models. I presently own HLS30 00020 and HLS30 00042 (among others). A close friend owns HLS30 00016 - the lowest left hand drive chassis number sold to the public. He also owns HLS30 00019 and HLS30 00052 (among many others). So I do have some knowledge related to the very early cars. Mike from Australia is correct in his statement about the "compliance tags" on Right Hand Drive models imported into Australia. In 1970 cars were accompanied by paperwork only which said in effect that they complied with all laws in force upon arrival at the Port of Entry. Compliance tags were affixed to the cars at the Port of Entry starting late in 1971 as far as we can tell. The lowest VIN imported into Australia was HS30 0004 and it was built in January or Feb. of 1970. I have communicated with the owner of this car and his research agrees with mine. Contrary to popular Myth in Australia - there are no 1969 production year Right Hand Drive models - they didn't start production until 1970. All 240-Z's imported into the US had to have their VIN affixed to the car - one tag visible through the windshield, the chassis had to have it's number stamped into the metal. The Date of Manufacture had to be affixed to the car. (required by our Federal Highway Admin for both Safety and Emissions requirements). One thing common to both Right Hand Drive (HS30) and Left Hand Drive (HLS30) models was the data tag in the engine compartment. It contained both the VIN and the Original Engine Serial Number. Nissan only had one production line for the L24 engines and they have only one series of serial numbers, so we can cross reference engine serial numbers to build dates - and arrive at a build date for the Right Hand Drive models as well - even though they didn't receive the data plates that provide that information. All that said - the VIN tags were always riveted in place on the dash. The very early cars into the US did not have the emissions evap. controls - so no vapor lines returning to the rear of the car. Many early cars into Canada did not have air pumps nor the air injection into the exhaust manifold. On the car in question - the hood stops on the firewall are incorrect for a very early car and the plastic fresh air deflectors from the radiator core support to the inner fender are not the original type found on early cars. The Throttle Damper - was standard on all US cars. But all / any of this could have been changed over the years. HLS30 000212 has been on my listing since Oct. of 1995 - it was owned by Greg Scott of Santa Claira, Calif. and had a build date of 11/69. One should request the original engine serial number for this car - it should be something close to L24- 02xxx. Carl S. is correct - inspect everything personally and very closely before you buy. Feel free to me mail me at: cbeck@becksystems.com regards, Carl B.