Marios280Z
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Everything posted by Marios280Z
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Thanks guys for all the analysis and advises. Chickenman, I have verified my thermotime switch and WTS wires, but Iwill revisit the path between WTS and the ECU. This morning when I disconnected WTS after first unsuccessful attempt at cranking, the car started right up but almost immediately started to run like crap. I turned the car off,I reconnected the WTS and started the car no problem. I wrote about it few posts earlier and Zed Head commented on it. I've played with FPR in one of my videos, and form all I have read it is operating correctly. I also tried to clamp the fuel return line form FPR to see if that would stop the leak, but it didn't. My battery voltage seems to be right on spot. Thanks a lot for the link to Rockauto. I may just order that when I come back from vacation. Question about starter. Is it the same unit in early 240Z as it is in my late 280? I may have access to a 240 parts car. It is 78. In one of my posts where I included a video I have filmed the entire process of me priming the fuel pressure and then starting process. I just watched the video on you tube again, I just don't recall which post # it is. Since I'm filming my fuel pressure gauge the video clearly shows that during cranking my pressure actually goes up a bit, so the pump is providing sufficient pressure. You can also see and hear how that started acts funky and does this strange buzz just as the engine tries to catch, and then it stumbles. I have also heard the fuel pump run many times when I had the starter disconnected and turn the key to START. That ignition module thing...Where the hell is it? Sorry..still learning... You are not talking about the ignition coil, are you? There is this little black box next to the ignition coil, but when I opened it up all it had was two wires on each side connected by nuts. Is that it? I cleaned them up when I was on the task of cleaning ground connections in the engine bay. OK guys,time to go to bed . Long trip ahead of me tomorrow. I will be off the grid for few days, so I will talk to you when I get back.
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That fuel pump relay, I must be blind because I didn't see it in the cabin. Where is it? It is not hidden in the engine bay under black metal cover on the right side of the engine, just in front of the battery, is it? Those are EFI relays, correct? The low enrichment during start is what has always been on my mind when I started doing all these tests. I just don't understand why. I think it is also emphasized by incorrect CSV operation. As I recall correctly, my voltage at the starter when cranking was acceptable as concluded by one of you guys here. The starter definitely makes this "big buzz" as you accurately described it. It has been doing that even more often recently and it prevents me from holding the key in the START position therefore not allowing for a longer cranking .
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Nope...It is still brass color, just not shiny...There was no residue on it so I did not sand it down.
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Zed Head, I get your point about the fuel, but I have gone through few tanks of gas so far with the same problem. EuroDat must have pissed his neighbor pretty bad, maybe his exhaust is to loud ? Yes, I saw that 52-72, and the 'somewhere " doesn't make me feel comfortable. I also believe it says somewhere in that section that one can "adjust" that, but I have not seen anywhere the procedure for adjustment. Also, according to what Chickenman experienced first hand, those units tend to fail, in which case the range goes out the window. I know a lot of people get rid of the CSV...Not sure I'm ready for it yet. Trust me, I don't want to spend the money on thermotime switch either. Putting a switch sounds like a noble idea, but it will only mask the issue I'm having. I will proceed with WTS signal trace first, make sure all is good, and check its resistance against the old one... Any hints on that starter discussion above?
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This is very interesting and almost fits my situation to a T. I have NEVER heard my CSV click and spray the fuel until I did the CSV-in-the-jar test with the thermotime switch put in the freezer for about 10 minutes (see my description few post earlier). At the same time my temps here were typically above 70. I did have couple of days in low 60 when I left the car outside and I still had a trouble starting (I'm guessing my CSV never sprayed extra fuel despite lower temps).
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Very interesting observations and theories both on the Clear Flooding and the starter. So now looks like I will have to replace my starter...? I already have to replace, in the near future, my radiator that started to slowly leak at the very top and only during operation (most likely due to increased pressure in the system). I cannot even take my girl to autocross to test here new shoes because of that radiator Is there a way to test and verify that the starter is really giving up? And if so, is there typically a way to fix it, of course pending the damage that I would find? The stupid thermotime switch is also over $100!! Crap...
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My plugs are currently NGK B6ES 11, one of the plugs listed in FSM. They are just few months old.
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What originally triggered me to do this priming approach was the fact that after installing inline fuel pressure gauge it was very clear that the fuel pressure in my fuel line was dropping to 0 after few hours. I did have the problem BEFORE I installed the gauge and therefore before I was priming the fuel pressure. I could try few times without the priming and see if it makes any change now that I have cleaned so many of electrical connections under the hood. Just keep in mind that at this point we are leaning towards the theory that I'm actually running lean on start up, not rich, because with an extra fuel (starting fluid squirt) or disconnected WTS (ECU provides more gas) the engine starts much easier. The reason why I let go off the key so quickly is because as soon as the engine tries to catch the starter makes this "grinding" noise just like it would if you attempted to crank already running engine. I'm not too familiar with an operation of a car starter so I don't really know what happens inside when I crank the engine and right when it caches. I just don't want to destroy my starter. I know one of the guys Capin Obvious or Zed Head, I think, has mentioned something earlier that in the videos he was noticing that my starter was acting strange but later on somebody else said that he didn't see anything wrong with how the starter operated...
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Thanks CO. Just a correction, the starting problems have started BEFORE I replaced WTS , NOT after I replaced it. I have performed the resistance test as you indicated in the FSM snap shot and the result I got seemed to be correct. That being said I'm using a crappy volt meter that I don't know any more how much I can trust. I do have the old WTS, so I will compare them when side by side when they achieve same ambient temperature. I will try retrace the signal from the WTS to ECU and also perform the WTS resistance/voltage test at the ECU connector. I do agree with you.The fact that on two different occasions/tests the lady acted way more enthusiastic when she got an extra amount of fuel (starting fluid in one case, fuel in other) does indicate that I'm running lean on start up. Just a note, I will be going on vacation tomorrow morning for a week and I will be off the grid. So there will not be any updates for a while.
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Zed Head, is the location of the breaker plate also described in the FSM? If it is , I will find it. If not, can you point me to it? Also, this morning after first unsuccessful attempt at starting. I went in and unplug the water temperature sensor as it was suggested few posts earlier. The result was that the car started right up on but as it was also mentioned (forgot who said it) that the car would run like crap, and it did started to stumble shortly after it fired up nicely. I then turn the car off, reconnected WTS and the car started nicely again followed with smooth operation. I will perform this test couple more times to make sure it wasn't just a fluke. Perhaps the new WTS I put in isn't really working correctly(just a reminder, the starting problems began before I replaced the WTS), or the signal between the sensor and ECU gets corrupted in some way.
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Zed Hed, I have not moved form the starting problem yet. It's quite annoying. Captain Obvious has asked how my spark plugs looked like, so I did a check. I've never done either of the two things you mentioned at the end of your post. I know I would need a timing light to check my timing, but I'm not even sure how to do it. Neither do I know how to check the distributor advance. Will I find info about those two things in FSM? I think I recall reading something about the timing, but that's about it. I will do some research on World Wide Web about those timing and distributor advance.
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Here is a short video of my spark plugs after running the car at operational temperature. Any thoughts?
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Thanks CO. Like I said earlier, I'm here to learn. Yesterday after coming back from work I attempted to start the car. When at first try it gave me hard time, I then sprayed starting fluid. She fired right up. This leads me to believe that I may be running lean at least at the start up. I decided to pull the spark plugs to take a look at them. Keep in mind that the car has not been driven in few days now and all I have been doing was starting it cold and running no longer than 1 minute at the time, never reaching operating temperature. From what I understand to get a good indication of what's going on in the cylinder by looking at the spark plug, the car needs to be driven at operational temperature for a while and than turned off and spark plugs pulled out. SO what you are about to see is just an indication of what takes place on cold engine. I will try and do the same after getting the car up and running at operation temps.
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Late last weekend I disconnected the AFM for the second time now. I made sure again that the flap was moving OK, I looked at the boot connecting it to the throttle body looking for significant cracks. I did see slight rubber cracks, but nothing was all the way through. Again having the throttle body available I used electrical connector cleaner and cleaned it some more. Last time I did this the car fired up twice in the row, after sitting in the garage over night and then next day after sitting outside at work. OK, so my morning test was inconclusive. I wasn't quite awake and I sprayed the starting fluid before I even attempt to start the car to see if she would give my hard time. Needless to say she fired right up. Coincidence? Did it have to do with the fact that I pulled the AFM? Or was it the starting fluid? Or was she just happy to see me? The weather was questionable so I turned her off and took my other car and left her in the garage for the day. When I came back from work I primed the fuel pressure and cranked the engine (no starting fluid), and she fired right up... I decided to do more CSV investigation. I pulled CSV out and stuck it in the jar. Disconnected the starter and turn the key to start. I could hear the fuel pump running, but there was nothing coming out of the CSV. Note, it was about 79 degrees outside. So I did the fuel pressure discharge per FSM. Still with the CSV in the jar I unplugged the CSV connector and using two leads I connected the CSV itself to the battery, at which point I heard audible click and the fuel was discharged from the fuel lines via the CSV to the jar. This proves that CSV, as long as it gets the right signal, works properly. So then I moved to thermotimeswitch, I pulled it out, plugged the hole and put the switch inside my freezer for about 10minutes. Pulled it out and quickly installed it where it belongs. With the electrical connector back on the CSV (still in the jar) and the starter still disconnected I turn the key to start for a second or so. I did get solid spray of fuel out of the CSV. But when I immediately turn the key to start for the second time, the CSV would not spray. Perhaps that was just enough time for the thermotimeswitch to warm up and open the circuit. Just to make sure, I then moved to the thermotimeswithc connector, unplugged it and provided voltage from the batter to the connector. CSV responded nicely with a solid spray. This proved that: 1) My CSV is working properly and as long as there is voltage and fuel it will spray. 2) The wiring connection between the CSV, the ignition key and the thermotimeswitch is all good 3) I'm not 100% convinced that my thermotimeswitch is working correctly.It just seems that it warmed up quite fast effectively disabling CSV. I will still play with starting fluid AFTER she gives me hard time starting to.
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This weekend was hot and humid and I really didn't have much time to spend in the steamy garage to do chilled thermotime switch testing. I did receive new oil temp sensor in the mail on Friday, since my old one was leaking oil, so I did replace that. I also quickly took off distributor cap off and the router and take a look at the pick up coil, but since I did not have any particular instructions and did not really know what to look for, I did not mess with it and did not attempt to remove it. Tomorrow morning I will try to use starter fluid to at least figure out if the engine runs a bit lean or rich while starting.
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It stumbles almost every time when I have hard time starting. I tend not to add any gas, but sometimes I do when I see it is "almost there" to overcome the stumble. I believe the video you refer to is the one when I had my idle screw set open pretty wide. After engine warmed up it would idle at or just above 1000rpm with that setting. I have not seen any unusual and excessive smoke out of my pipes (never saw anything black). If anything, there is a small amount of white smoke, but pretty much only in the mornings when it is a bit cooler (60s) and somewhat humid. Spark plugs... I got obsessed with them when I first got the car.Watched hours of videos to "learn" how to read them, and the more I watched the more I got confused with different approaches and reading techniques. Some said look at this portion of the plug, others said that portion of the spark didn't matter. At the end of the day I went and spoke with a local car guy, who races track and has an army of vehicles, including some MGs, Porshes, Hondas, and others. He also builds his engines for some of the cars, like MG, so i trusted he knew what he was talking about. He looked at my spark plug first hand (and at that point it was pretty new spark plug that I replaced). He said they looked really good. We then went for a ride, and except for a dry clutch bearing he did not identify anything wrong with how the car was driving. There was a specific engine noise at high RPM I went to him to talk about, but that is an item for a separate forum topic that I may bring to your attention when we figure out this starting issue. At the end of the day he concluded that it was nothing mechanical but rather some strange resonance between 4500-5500 rpm that causes high frequency vibration of something in the exhaust part of the engine.
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Will do.
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Right now looks like I have the CSV-in-the-jar test to do with the thermotime switch cooled off in the freezer. Perhaps the vacuum test if I can get my hands on one of them vacuum gauges. Other than that what else is there...? There is no way I didn't already look at the faulty item and concluded it was "good". I guess I have not looked at the condition of the pickup coil in the distributor. I could do it this weekend. Also, I'd like to challenge you guys with the question that I believe is linked to this issue. Why is my idle RPM so "low" right after starting the car? It is as if the ECU did not recognize initial starting condition and did not follow with the enrichment period as indicated in the graph in post #70 by ZedHead. What about the air temperature sensor in the AFM? Could that effect the richness/leanness of the fuel mixture in a way that would affect starting? What about that water temp sensor I replaced? It has new connector as well, it tests OK at the sensor with the resistance matching FSM specs, but what if the signal gets interrupted between the sensor and the ECU? At he same time if that was the case, wouldn't I have other driveability problems?
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Ha,ha, well, I did not have propane but I did have starter fluid. This morning when I fired it up cold I sprayed around the vac hoses I could see, especially around fittings. I sprayed around the AFM boot as well. I did not get any reaction from the engine :/ I guess it's a good think, but this still didn't point me to the cause of my issue
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Thanks siteunseen. If that's your engine, I'm jealous...Very clean, no more hose and wire nest and much simpler fuel rail.
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Actually, yes you misinterpreted y spray test . I unplugged the vac hose to FPR to get a bench mark and to see how the engine would react when introducing started fluid into the vac line (simulating vac leak). That's all. I did not actually perform the vac leak test yet. I forgot to mention but the other day I replaced the PCV valve since I purchased it some time ago (they were inexpensive and I've header that they can get clogged and stuck). The hose at the PCV end looked OK, but I have not investigated it on the other end. It's kind of hidden back there behind the throttle body and it looks like it actually expands in size as it connects to...something...
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Last night I had few minutes so I opened up the TPS cover to look at the connections. They did look OK, but since I was there I cleaned it up gently with a small file, sand paper and followed with electrical connector spray cleaner. Crossed my fingers and went to bed. This morning, still with my finger crossed, I primed the fuel pressure and attempted starting...Unfortunately it gave me some trouble with a typical symptoms. Another item checked off, more to come. I also quickly looked a the the large vac hose that runs between intake manifold and the carbon canister, as mentioned by Zed Head, and it looked OK. I will try to get a replacement this weekend just to be safe.I also tested starting fluid with the vac hose going form the manifold to the FPR. Small spray of it mad her rev up like an 18 year old girl. I did not have time to do vacuum leak test last night, plus the engine was too warm for my comfort to start spraying starter fluid.
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From the album: My 280Z
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From the album: My 280Z
