mdbrandy

Moore is an idiot. See: http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2002/1209/059.html?_requestid=2372&_requestid=6287 and http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20021119.html for some critical takes on his "Documentary". And as for the bank gun scene, it was staged. The first link above gives: BANK: Moore says North Country Bank & Trust in Traverse City, Mich., offered a deal where, "if you opened an account, the bank would give you a gun." He walks into a branch and walks out with a gun. ACTUALLY: Moore didn't just walk in off the street and get a gun. The transaction was staged for cameras. You have to buy a long-term CD, then go to a gun shop to pick up the weapon after a background check. I'm not saying we don't have too much violence and guns in the US, but don't get your information from Michael Moore.

My 11/69 production car has no rear defogger in the glass, and the console position for the switch is there, but was never cut out.

Well, I removed my dash tonight (there are a few rust holes high on the passenger firewall, and I didn't want welding to go on back there with the dash in). Before I even started, a couple pieces of the HVAC ductwork had fallen out from under the dash in pieces. While removing the dash, even being careful, a couple of the other sections essentially disintegrated. Extremely brittle. So, are these things available anywhere, or do I have to find used ones or fabricate something? A couple of them are completely unsalvagable - pieces less than an inch long.

Right - it's a given that I'll do that work, and I'm already well along. Just more elbow grease and sweat. Luckily, there isn't much thick sticky undercoating underneath. Only a little. Most of the bottom is coated with a very thin grey 'something' that looks like a thick paint (although not very thick). Most of it is in tough shape and flaking off. It's not sticky at all - it feels like old paint. It may actually be the original undercoating - I don't know what was there originally. I've never had a Z that was original enough to care :classic:

Both? Interesting. I'll see what the PO tells me about what he did.

I know that the PO parted out a '71 (which I have several boxes of parts from), so if the early '71's had the knob, it could still have been from that. Does yours have webbing or springs, though? If you have webbing, then this is probably the original seat with springs transplanted into it.

MikeW noticed in the picture I posted at the beginning of this thread that you can see impressions of what looks like webbing in the cushion in the bottom of my seats. So, either someone took the springs from a later seat and used them in the originals, or took the seat cushion from the early seat and put it in a later seat. Did the '73 have the lever that let the seat come forward more, or did that wait until the 260Z? These seats still have the big dial that tilts the back a few degrees. I'll ask the PO if he knows the pedigree of the seats.

I wouldn't cut anything until I had the floor, but you're right about the lap versus butt joints, and without any welding savy, I wouldn't know which was best. OK then, hopefully the cutting isn't the costly part anyway.

Ok, looking for some thoughts. I'm going to be doing at least some of the floor pans and frame on my 240Z. (see http://www.csar.uiuc.edu/~mdbrandy/240Z/240ZRust.htm for some of the worst of the rust). I've been talking with Charlie Osborne and will be getting some stuff from Zedd Findings to do the worst of it. So, I'm going to do as much of the teardown as I can, and get a pro to do the welding, since I've never welded before. My question is, how much of the floors can I safely remove myself (if any) before having it towed to a shop? I have plenty of air and power tools to cut about anything I want. If I removed pretty much the entire drivers side floor pan before towing, would that compromise the structure of the car too much and risk having the frame bend from just towing (flat bed, of course)? By the time I had it towed, the car will pretty much just be a shell - no interior or engine, so it's weight will be minimal. Some of the frame on the passenger side is also gone, and I'd remove most of the stuff that isn't doing much good right now anyway. Just looking to do whatever I can to minimize cost, while letting the pros do the important work. Thanks for any discussion on this.

I've got a couple hundred so far, but I have to get them organized, reduced (they're 4 megapixel images) and posted. Hopefully this weekend or so. On the VIN, I think I had it right the first time :classic: HLS30 00215

Wow. It's amazing what slips past you sometimes. I didn't look past the springs! You're right that it appears as though there was webbing against that cushion at some point. Guess that probably answers the question.

I've got a very early production 240Z, and I was just looking at the seats today. They are in quite good condition (probably been recovered). In my readings about the early Z's, I've come across mention of "rewebbing" seats, and seen pictures of early seats with webbing under the seat cushion that sometimes has to be reaplaced. What year(s) was this done in? I ask due to the fact that my seats do not have the webbing - they have metal springs (see pics). They are 240Z seats - no tilting lever, just the knob to change the angle a few degrees. I know that the PO had access to a parted out 1971 240Z (I have several boxes of parts he collected from it). Could these seats be from the 71, or would an 11/69 production car possibly have the metal springs? Ultimately it won't matter to me, since I don't intend to bring the car back to stock in every nut and bolt, but I'd like to be as close as I can. Thanks.

Many years ago (1979 or so), I had a 1971 240Z. Sold it in 1981, but I just found a badge from it in a parts bin that apparently I've been carting around the country for 20+ years. It's metal. Nice and heavy. Unfortunately, there's a hole drilled in the center of it. Must have been mounted with a screw when I got the car, and I didn't put it back for some reason.

I believe Mike W is right, that they can replace essentially the entire floor. If you have questions, you should e-mail Charlie Osborne at Zedd. I've been trading e-mails with him about my frame/floor, and he's been very helpful. Takes him a day or two to respond most times, but he probably doesn't spend 8 hours a day in front of a computer like I do! If you just have a few floor pan holes, and no frame damage, you've got a much easier job. Check that frame over carefully though.

Charlie Osborne (of Zedd Findings - the floor pan supplier in Canada you mention) tells me that MSA actually sells his floor pans as premium floor pans. So they're not just close, they're the same thing! I can't compare prices yet, since MSA hasn't managed to send me their catalog yet...

$800 for a dash, huh. Probably not . I'll search for those companies you mention, and probably go with the cover. I suppose you're right about the vinyl. That wouldn't be hard for someone to put back if they wanted. I'll think about it. I've got time :classic:. The motor is original with the right number, the SU's, etc. The only mod I can find is a set of rusty headers. The PO told me that he cracked the exhaust manifold, so just put headers on it. I think I can be quite happy with a well-tuned stock L24 in this car. My speed-freak days are over. Zippy and nimble is the name of the game now. Since the transmission is already not stock (the PO says it is a "truck transmission" although I don't really know what he means by that), I'm thinking about taking the 5 speed out of the 280Z I have. However, from what I've read, I'd have to cut a few inches out of the transmission tunnel on this early Z, and I'm not sure I'm ready to do that. Don't know what other drivetrain mods would be necessary if I did, either. I also have a 4 speed out of a 1971 240Z that I could use. The PO got access to a 71 parting out, and I have several boxes of misc. parts from it. Just thinking right now. Thanks for the input. I can use all I can get!

Well, I was going to ask a similar question, but I guess all I had to do was read this thread. :classic: I just bought an 11/69 production 240Z with VIN #215. It's stock except that the vinyl was gone on the interior (carpet everywhere), and the transmission has been changed out (and needs work - reverse works intermittantly). Now, there's floor and frame rust, but that's another story... So, since I need new carpets anyway, I should find the ugly vinyl and get original carpets? How about the dash - mine is pretty badly cracked, and the early 240 dash is different than the late 240 dash in several respects - is a dash cover OK, or will I need to look for a "real" replacement? I'm not looking to make a show car, but I'll make it nice over time, and I'll probably keep it as stock as I can. All the rust comes first, but in some (many?) months I'll be looking to do the interior...

Yup, it feels good to be workin' on a Z again. My first car was a '71 240. It had an automatic that I switched for a 4 speed from a junk yard, redid the struts, and did a bunch of "bondo body work" (I didn't know better then). I sold it in 1981 and bought a '75 280Z that I had until 1989 when I got out of grad school. I lowered the 280, did heavy sway bars, poly bushings, etc. I only sold it 'cause I had a new family, and the choice was the station wagon or the Z. Unfortunately, the station wagon won. My third is a '78 280Z that I bought 8 years ago, and let it sit in my garage. It spent one year outside two years ago, and that killed it. Frame filled with water I think, and the drivers side is gone. Doesn't run too well either now. I guess that's not unexpected after 8 years of only being started every couple years. I got the bug a few months ago to start working on the 280, and found that it wasn't worth it for a car that is just a run-of-the-mill Z. I started looking around, and found the #215 here in town, sitting outside, rusting away with a forsale sign in the window. I wasn't going to buy it, but he dropped the price significantly, and I couldn't resist, as much as many people tell you not to buy a rust-Z. I guess I'll see if it was a good idea :nervous: I'm sure you'll see me on the forums more and more over the next year. Hopefully I can join all you Z-experts and get back to driving my Z.

Since I don't weld (yet), I don't think I'd even attempt to repair a frame. Maybe sheet metal, but not something as important as the frame. Thus, the search for a restoration professional in the area begins... The battery tray area will actually probably not be too hard. Most of the difficult curved areas were replaced 12 years ago, and they look solid still. The two rusted areas right now are in areas that are on fairly flat panels, so fabrication shouldn't be too hard. It looks like the work that was done previously was pretty good, and very little of it has rusted again. The rust now is in areas that are original sheet metal that wasn't replaced before. I don't know about replacing the whole front frame. I'd hate to replace things that are in reasonable shape. It'll be a while still before I ascertain if they are actually in reasonable shape. I'll probably be pulling the engine, and that'll let me get a much closer look. I'll keep your suggestion in mind. I didn't pay premium $$ for the car (although I don't think he gave it away either), so I can afford to put some $$ into it too. Since everything mechanical/body, etc. except the welding work (and a final paint job), I can do myself, I should be able to make a nice car out of it without mortaging the house. I'm not looking for a show car, but I want to put it back into good condition throughout. Other than the transmission, and no vinyl in the interior, it is pretty much original. And since I do like working on these machines (it's my 4th Z, although I haven't worked on one for 12 years or so), at least the voyage ought to be fun

I spent a couple more hours under it tonight, and that darned piece is really the only part of the frame that is bad. Floor pans aren't good, and the frames under both floor pans have been previously replaced, but they are still in good shape. The battery tray area is a little worse than I thought, but not too bad. There is also some rust-through of the passenger wheel well just over the passenger side connection of the front sway bar. The box frame there at the sway bar looks fine, though - just the wheel well piece. I've been poking and proding all I can at that area, and can't go through the frame itself. Anyway, thanks for the encouragement. I'll start looking for shops next week. I work for the University here in town (University of Illinois) - maybe I can find someone in the Mechanical engineering fab lab that would take on the project of making the piece :classic: BTW, when the frame rails under the floor pans were previously replaced, the replacements do not have the drain holes that I seen in Charlie's frame rails. Did the originals have drain holes, and do I need to be worried about what the insides of the rails look like? I've banged on them a bit, and they don't deform, and they don't even really have much surface rust...

Well, I bought a 240Z without knowing exactly what I was getting into - I knew about the rust, replacing floors, etc., but Charlie Osborn tells me that one frame part that I need is not available and has to be fabbed (the part of the frame rail behind the passenger side T/C rod pocket). See the attached picture. The drivers side is OK. Anyone replaced this piece and have any advice? I've only had the car about a week, and I've gutted most of the interior so far to see what I'm up against. Hopefully it's worth it. It is a 1970 - car number 215 built in 11/69. Some more pics of the rust problems at: http://www.csar.uiuc.edu/~mdbrandy/240Z/240ZRust.htm Thanks for any advice. Not fixing it isn't really an option at this point. :disappoin