alternativez

It's funny. These things are major decisions. Most people don't really pay attention to wheels, but I'm always looking. I appreciate your sharing your ideas and photos. Your car is an outstanding example of how the Z, particularly the early ones, are a great car to build, kind of like older Camaros, but even more personal like classic hot rods, yet the Z has always been more like one of those cars that is a sort of personality of the owner. I think they are a form of Karma. Dream them into reality; treat them with respect and other aspects of living seem to flow more naturally, but that is truth in general. So, great thread. You deserve three more dreams. You should post photos on the "show us your wheels" thread. Great job! (I think I'm set on the 17" stagger set with ET4, but I haven't put the money down yet. It's still a long term project among others more pressing.) Later.

I suggest you try to keep the tire diameter closer to stock. I tried the slightly taller tire on my '76 BMW 2002 for the same reason, better highway cruising, and to match the speedo of the engine/electronics of the '91 m42, 5 speed, R&P, LSD swap, basically turning the '02 into a '91 318is. However, in my case, I was having some rubbing issues with a 195/60/15 and feeling like I was driving a truck, so I dropped to 195/55/15, and also switched from a lousy Yokohama 520 to a fine Michelin, still a bit taller than stock, but only slightly. The steering lightened up, I tear around corners now with a rejuvenated "sport sedan" because I'm not rubbing, and the traction is far better. Everything is a compromise. Taller tires sacrifice some acceleration, but more importantly, they change the suspension dynamics, perhaps adding some body roll due to higher center of gravity. I doubt I've lost much mpg, but I've gained a livelier car, which has inspired me to play with the suspension. The original tire diameter is 24.26, or so, for the early Z, not sure what car you have, so unless you really like the look of the taller tire, over 2" taller than stock with lots of sidewall, I suggest 225/60/14 would be maybe a more comfortable size. There are several good threads on tire/wheel sizes. Explore those. Check out Chachacourt's thread on the RB-R, great thread discussing clearance, etc. Everyone has personal preferences; for example, I'm thinking 215/45/17 front, 24.62", 225/45/17 rear, 24.97," which wouldn't appeal to everyone. It's an area for research. Tires' real measurements, like shoes, don't always match their statistical meaurements; you have to try them on for size. Also, tire sizes dictate availability of certain tires, so you might want to look at your tire preferences and then think size options. One thing you will hear is, do what you think and what you like. Good luck. My .02.

Fabrica Ignonima Automobi Torino, I think. Had one as a cast-off from my father-in-law who had a penchant for buying interesting but worn out stuff just for the enjoyment, "If you can get that thing running, you can have it." It had been wrecked and poorly repaired, but indeed, I had a ball with it. First, I got over my fear of tearing into the transmission to replace some synchros, then fatter little tires, lots of loving the effort it took to keep it running just to scoot around corners, and it became my daily driver for a couple of years, until I just got tired of the electronics gremlins, as some have pointed out. NOT so good at night or in a downpour; worst in a downpour at night, with poor pot-up headlights, and a very light front. My wife and I even took a couple of very memorable day-long road trips, and the targa top was a plus, since the AC never did work. Would I own another? Yes! Definitely. Cheap fun really, especially if you like an "intimate" interior. It would make a great base for an EV. Lots of empty spaces for batteries in such a small car. You might search some engine swaps. Some very interesting things have been stuffed into them.

Just another .02, while swapping engines in my 1976 BMW 2002, I went from gearbox with truck-like steering qualities, to a non-powered rack from a 320i, which was much work, but has been fabulously more pleasant to drive at speed, but which has also much improved parking, etc. as well. I do sometimes consider PS for the '02, and am considering it for my '70 Z with larger tires, and even as I've been driving the '02 daily for over 2 years, I know I am relying on my own fabrication. Be careful messing with such a critical issue as steering. Study and practice your skills. On the '02, I just changed tires down from 195/60/15 to 195/55/15, and there was a very noticeable lightening of the steering effort. I did replace not-at-all satisfactory Yokahama 520's, with some mighty-fine Michelin Pilot Exalto A/S, so both size and characteristics of tires will make distinct differences. If making the Z is more of building a daily, up-to-date modern vehicle, AC, and electric windows maybe, heated seats? and you get your exercise in some other arena, PS may be worth it, otherwise, enjoy the occasional pleasure drive and you will keep your upper body toned up. Since we're confessing age: 57

Wow, man, that's looking really tough. Nice work. The photos are fine.

I should think the wheels would have the correct 73mm diameter center hole for hub, but apparently your wheels and your hubs aren't matched properly. If you do not want to use the spacer, you could machine the wheel hole to the correct diameter for your hub. That won't help your cap fit problem, which must be endemic to the slight offset wheel and thin mounting plate of the wheel when fit on the front hub. Wheels with thicker mounting plates and those with more positive offset would not have this problem. I suppose everyone is having that problem. It's going to take some ingenuity, unless, of course, Rota makes a deeper cap, as they should do for this application. I wonder if it would be possible to cut an "extension" from another cap and insert it into the wheel and then snap the center cap into it. I haven't seen the caps myself to know if this is possible, but I have noticed that other Z's, such as 71Nissan, aren't using the caps, probably for that reason. One might also consider using a generic center cap. I'm still considering ordering RB's, so it's interesting to see what difficulties and solutions people are having with them. So, how's everything fit otherwise? How are the 225's on the rear? Good clearance so far?

Thanks for the information: "Actually the steering feels better, its not as hard. Both the front and rear are the same exact wheel, the spokes are the same. The only difference between my wheels is the width." That really helps. I think I will go with the stagger so I can play with tire sizes a bit, and the 8.5 rear wheels look really good. You can do just about anything you want with the Z, amazing cars, light, plenty of engine room, plenty of passenger space, lots of aftermarket and original parts available, and a basic sports car. Bought my first one, a '70, when I was 19, and then did one of the earliest V8 (350 hp) conversions back in '73 or so. My girlfriend (now wife) and I had great times in it before that swap, so this one I'm building now (3.5 BMW) has considerable significance. That's why decisions are carefully considered. Thanks for the thread.

Thanks, guys for the great information on this thread. I know I'm thoroughly "beating a dead horse," but I'd still like to actually see (and feel) the difference between the spokes of the RB and RB-R. Thanks, madkaw, for the chance to see yours, just haven't gotten free. So, how noticable is the difference in spokes? From the 18racing photos, it appears the rim is made wider on the 8.5 because the 7.5 mounting face is thicker than the 8.5 mounting face, which in effect disguises the offset. I think both wheels look great. I like the deeper rim and straighter spokes, but the 7.5 still has a nice looking rim, and I could still fit a 225/45 to it for the rear with 215/45 front or just stick with one size. The plan is a fun daily driver with about 180-200 hp, which would be a nice GT, good for highway cruising or loaning it to my wife or kids. I will not be racing this car, nor do I want every street racer (or traffic cop) trying to get me in trouble just because the car has wicked fat wheels and tires, so I don't mind understating the performance. I'll admit I'm a bit past middle age, but haven't forgotten the fun of my first 240 when I was 19; still the most fun car of all the fun cars I've owned or driven. Thanks for the honest assessment about the steering effort, and I realize even the 215 will be heavier than stock. I like options, but options do confound the decisions. Thanks for all your opinions. So, chacha, you got this started, how's it going? On the road yet?

Wow, 71Nissan, that is a good fit and just the look I've been trying to get, and no body modifications! ET4 offset, I think I saw on the tags on the wheels in your earlier photos. RLGM must mean "royal lip, gun metal"? I'm surprised the 235's fit without rubbing. Good job. I agree on the 215 on the front. How's the steering with the extra tread, any heavier? PS? So, you have two extra 17x8.5's huh? And they haven't sent the Phillipine mafia to collect? So your wheels are all RB-R, right? Obviously the 8.5 has the wide rim, and the 7.5 looks really good too. Is it also RB-R? Are the spokes identical on both widths? That's what I've been trying to figure out. Now I can't decide, gun metal or hyper black...Your car looks great! Enjoy! Thanks for posting the great photos. This thread has been excellent.

Thanks, madkaw, for the RB/RBR info. Sorry to hijack the thread, but this has been a good thread with helpful information. I didn't do well with the Rota site, which doesn't seem to answer questions, so sent me to racinglab.com, which seemed somewhat illiterate or unwilling to answer a direct question, nor with 18racing, which didn't bother to return my request for information, so I'm back to wondering if the Rotas are so desirable, if they don't have photos, specifications, or intelligent people who are willing to clearly answer a potential customer's questions. I am ready to order a set of wheels, but they aren't getting my money if they can't do business properly. "Caveat emptor," I suppose is the wise way to do business. So, thank you for confirming my suspicions about the design differences. It would make sense when offering a "stagger package" which incorporates two widths, that both widths would be the same design of wheel, spokes and all, but these distributors apparently haven't figured that out. The only difference should be the width of the rim. For my own part, I think the less curved spokes of the RBR look a bit more "sleek" than the more curved, which would resemble the Panasports or Minilites they've knocked off, but as you say, I might get used to the more curved spoke design. I haven't given up on matching the RBR in 17x7.5 and 8.5 just yet; maybe like most things, if I keep at it, it will happen. Anybody have more information about Rotas? Sorry chacha for the painter's idiocy. I feel your pain. But, your wheels look nice, are those RBR or RB? I could live with those for sure! They will look great on the yellow!

Chacha, Any news yet? I may be nearly as anxious as you are. I've been trying to figure out which sizes, and to find out differences between RB and RB-R. Now I'm thinking front 17x7.5 ET4 215/45 and rear 17x8.5 ET4 225/45 with Michelin Pilot Super Sports. Be sure to post some photos when you get yours done.

So, ChaCha, I hope you will post photos when you have your wheels. I've been following this thread, and you guys pretty much have me convinced to get some RB-R's. I was trying to figure out if I could get some BBS-RK's under my '70Z. It would have required a 5x120 adaptation, but the only size would have been 17x8.5 ET4 and work. I've placed the RB-R's in hyper black as a background and they're really growing on me. The car will be all black with clean SS bumpers. I'm thinking maybe 16x8 ET10 w/225/50/16 rear and 16x7 ET 4 w/205/50/16 front for the near match of outer diameter. One concern I have noticed with other manual rack cars is that a wider/heavier combination makes steering heavy, so I'm thinking 205 may be plenty big for front.

Johhny'O...I would say the appearance of the SS to chrome favors the SS. The stainless is just as shiny, but has less of the obvious "coated" appearance that chrome has. My Z will be all black, chrome, polished aluminum and likely a charcoal gray leather with some nice wood pieces for console. I wanted just the thin line chrome look, so I was really thrilled with their sleekness when I saw these at last. As I mentioned, they will not be protection, but the original bumpers weren't much protection either. These, I think, are superior in depth of shine. SS will tarnish slightly, but that oxidation will polish, whereas rust eats through; scratches should buff out. I believe they also do the overriders, but I think they may not supply the rubbers. Don't know, as I was not interested in those. The bumpers are painted black on the backside. Of course, I can't speak of their longevity, since they reside still in my attic until a few other projects are off the list. I do still have an OE rear if anyone is interested, but it does need rechromed. I have no monetary expectations, if somebody here in central Indiana wants me to pull it out of my attic. Later, Jim

Hey, I just thought I would toss this in for thought. I bought a set stainless steel bumpers from Harrington Group, GB, about a year ago for the '70 Z. They are actually made in Viet Nam. I was wary, of course, but the guy in VN was easy to deal with via email. They made my rear bumper as one piece as I had half kiddingly suggested, no holes in the faces, lightweight, maybe 15 pounds together. They are not going to protect much, mostly aesthetic. I haven't begun putting the car together to inform on fit, but the finish is fantastic. It looked as if the tips of the rear wings were angled outward a little, but that wouldn't bother me as I intend to widen the rear fenders aft the wheels. They had never had that request, and I gave them the feedback which should prevent that in future. I had searched for nearly 20 years for clean, naked bumpers, so I jumped on it and paid $950, half for deposit, balance before shipping, shipping included, and I traced them from delivery to home in central Indiana, under two weeks from order date. Arrived well packaged and perfect. Their website is pretty cool, too, lots of products. Stainless steel. No holes. Custom requests. I'm pretty picky, and I am impressed. This is not a sales pitch, just a positive experience. Jim

I only mention this if everything mechanical and hydraulic are correct, no air is being drawn back into the system by a poorly seating bleeder or connection, and since you've tried all the usual bleeding methods. Bleeding is a job for method and patience as pumping quickly can cause agitation and aeration, which is easy to do, especially when refilling the entire system. Of course, make sure the fluid has not been shaken. I place a clear vinyl tube on each bleeder and into clean fluid in a clear jar. I bleed each, far to near, as usual until the tubes are full so they will not return air into the calipers/cylinders. Then I can let it sit, and any tiny bubbles will form into larger bubbles and then be expelled. As I keep the excess fluid clean, I can recyle it through several bleedings until every tiny air bubble is out. It does take a strong leg, and my wife may use both legs to apply sufficient pressure when bleeding. Give the fluid time to settle. There was air clinging to the inside of all the parts and must be slowly washed out. Also, an oddity, but hoses can separate and the air/fluid can be forced between layers of the hoses. Good luck!

I also purchased a set, no holes for rubber, no holes for overriders, the rear as a one piece, and they were shipped direct from VN to Indiana, US. I ordered during a "sale, so the entire cost with shipping was under $1000 US. I have some time before I get to see them actually mounted on the car, but I did notice the rear side pieces seemed to be angled out ever so slightly, but I intend to widen the rear fenders slightly, so I'm not concerned. They are very light, very well polished. They are not "5 mph" bumpers, but more for appearance. I think they will look really nice on a solid black body with the other chrome accents on the Z. These are for the early Z, but they are looking to make pieces for all markets. I had searched for clean, "no holes" bumpers for about 20 years, so I jumped on the "sale," and when I off-handedly suggested the one-piece rear, they did it. They were easy to deal with, and I tracked the shipping online, and the entire deal took less than three weeks from order to receipt. In fact, I never spoke with anyone from UK, only Thy Bao in Ho Chi Minh City. We exchanged several emails.

You should have more than cold feet on this one. The title is not clear? That's a problem which may mean you will wait a long time and may never have a registered car. Find out what is up with the title. It took me 1 1/2 years to get a title in a similar circumstance, with much help from law and BMV. Old projects bring their old problems. If you could get the title and the car for the $600, that would not be so bad. You are right; the Z is the most fun car I have ever drive also, but it will be extensive work and money to enjoy this one. How is the dash? There, I've been the naysayer. Or...jump in; keep talking, maybe the seller can help you a little more. Good luck, keep us posted.

I've actually used a clear, flexible tubing, fitted to the vacuum cleaner to pull an injector pintle cap from a cylinder. Not a bad way to clean out hidden crap at the same time. It might work, but of course, removing the freeze plugs would be a really good idea anyway and would likely help more. Good luck

Well, I have finished the 2002 with the m42 twin cam. It's very nice. Plenty of good power and about 30 mpg. Coils on plugs, 5 speed, lsd, and rack and pinion steering. Now I just need to refurbish the suspension, new wheels and tires...it never ends. The Z with the big six has been on hold, as you can see by the age of these posts, but I'm thinking of going electric since I'm not too far into it. Later, Jim

Well, no, sorry no pics just now. I should post some. but the Z has taken a "back seat" to the BMW 2002/318is swap, work, another college class, another series of repairs on my son's car, coaching track, and winter, so it's under a tarp in the driveway. The class is done, the 2002 is getting there, track is just beginning, son's car still has issues, but it is on the road, winter is still hanging on, and the tarp is wearing thin. As soon as I can, I am anxious to see it in the sunshine again. Then I'll get some pics. I like your site. Phillipines? Very nice looking Z! I had a red one, a '70, back in the day when they were new, well, slightly used, and it looked very much like yours, except for the cool stuff, which wasn't available back then. The Z was one of the coolest cars on the road then, wupped on Cameros and Mustangs, due to the lightness and the great IRS. I did a Chec V8 conversion on it in '73 and then sold it off and took off to Central America. It was a great car to cruise with my girlfriend (now wife), so she's very cool about my building this one up BMW style. Later, Jim

m42 2002 is nearly done (if anybody cares...) this is just one of those odd things you run across in one of those odd places. I've been narrowing the gap between dreaming and planning and actually getting all the pieces in the right places. Now I'm fitting smaller and smaller pieces: intake, wiring, hoses, etc. Photos soon. Jim

Thanks for the interest and the advice on the profile gasket. I haven't run through the gaskets and seals just yet, but in the next week I will. I've had many warnings on the profile gasket, so definitely, I will do it. Now that I'm sure this is going to work, it's time to pull the engine and trans and do the seals. I have engine and trans mounted, and the rack and pinion is in but not finally mounted. That has been a chore, but I think it will be very cool. I have lots of parts around, especially BMW, so I pieced together a very nice looking sectioned shaft out of the pieces from my 85 635. I build a sealed upper section from the 02 housing and the 635 shaft so I could retain the 02 ignition and ts and wiper switches, but the rest is from the 6, so I have two nice looking stock BMW universals and a clean passage through the firewall to the rack. I did have to rob my motor mount bushings from the 240Z. Funny, those I had altered from the 635 engine to fit the Z, and they were exactly what I needed to fit the m42 into the '02! I like that both cars have the same part. They are much less expensive pieces than the m42 originally used, but will work, whereas the m42 bushings were large, expensive, and would not fit. Anyway, the only "outsourced" fabrication looks like alterations to the driveshaft and perhaps a custom built radiator, but I'm still digging around on that one. I try to use stock pieces if possible, and a stock radiator would be great. the '02 stock unit is just not quite suitable, in my opinion, although it would probably suffice for a while just to be able to drive locally, no hard trips. So, as some of you know, these swaps are always tougher than we want them to be, seeing it actually coming close is beginning to feel good. It's a big risk sometimes, but careful planning and patient work with the right parts will usually solve the problems. Money likewise is a limiting factor. This one has been a "budget" project for that reason. I've tried to look at it as just a car I'm fixing rather than modifying or restoring. Later I can do a few more things to it. Still, as simple as this one has been, it's been tough. The Z is the full restoration and involves more modifications, so it will be a while yet. When done, I'll try to post a few photos. Later, Jim

Well, I had mentioned the old bimmer swap, and now I'm in the middle of putting the m42 from a 91 318is into the old 2002. It's a fine little 1.8 L4 with all electronic ignition, no distributor, 16v, factory header and five speed. As always, there are the little complications; the engine and trans fit nicely, but the '02 steering box and idler arm are exactly where the engine mounts should sit on the subframe, so, out goes the steering box and in goes the manual rack and pinion from a '77 320i, assuming it will work. Not only can I fit the engine properly, but should have much better steering with R&P. I know this doesn't have much to do with Zcars, but all car projects are interesting, and you never know what you might learn by sharing. Later, Jim

The Z sits quite still. That's the sad but true. However, as I had once mentioned the idea of swapping something into the old 2002 if it ever died...Well, it died. So, having given great consideration to everything from small block V8, big BMW six, "baby six," rebuild or whatever, I've pulled the m42, 5 speed, diff, electronics, et all from a '91 318is. Nice little package very similar in size and weight to the original L4 of the 2002. It won't be the fastest coupe on the road, but should be pretty cool anyway, and hopefully very agile and very reliable. This engine is 16v, dohc, factory header, and electronic without distributor. Much better than carbed, points, and a 4 speed. And...Downing Atlanta makes a sc kit for the m42 now. If only I had the money. Anyway, wish I could say the Z is coming along, but I'm still completely remodeling/rebuilding my house and changed jobs this year, oh, and keeping my lovely wife happy, so I can't have everything at once. Hope you all are having more success with your Z's. Merry Christmas to all. Jim

Well, BuDavid, I'm of the school of thought that much of the design influence came from the German industrial designer Albrecht Goertz, who worked extensively with BMW on the 507 roadster. Some say he did a little for Porsche also. The coupe influences also came from the popularity of the Jag XKE and the fears of the day surrounding the dangers of convertibles. The argument of the design genesis also involves the Toyota 2000GT. which also owes some credit to Goertz. Nissan, of course, claims all design credits in house, and who can blame them for that, but the continuous dash into console was Goertz's design and the Fairlady Z was a drastic departure from anything Nissan or Toyota had come up with previously. I don't think all that is worth a huge debate; it's been through the courts, and Goertz received some recognition in the form of a settlement. I like to think it took several inspired minds to come up with the Z, which brought together so many fine technological and design innovations and became a milestone in automobile development. I was around for the newest thing out of Japan back then and bought a relatively new, wonderful 1970 240Z in 1972. It would waste just about anything on the road in some way, even later 260's, Camaros and Mustangs with handling, style, top end, and "cool factor." The Z was the coolest car around back then, and seems to be one of those cars which can become an extension of one's personality, if that doesn't sound silly. Our family has many sports cars, and I have owned many great cars in my life, bimmers, a Sunbeam Tiger, now a MINI CS, but my dream car is still the Z. I have a 70 240Z undergoing conversion to a bimmer drivetrain, perhaps a little tribute to old Albrecht Goertz. Do a little research on the design history. You don't have to include Goertz, but Nissan does have some other connections with the European auto world from that era, so I can't exclude him either. I don't deny the later Z developments, but I think Nissan really missed the boat by hyping the 350Z as a retrospective to the 240. It's more of a resurrection of the 300ZX. The 240SX could have continued to evolve as a lighter, more economical sports car in the line of the 240Z without the hype which never really matured. The Enjoy The Ride!