aarc240

One of ours is #302 so there were cars serial numbered from 001 to 301 built before it. #302 was complianced in 2/73 but how many cars there were before that even Nissan Australia say they have no record of. Not too surprising as they are NOT required to keep the compliance records for 30 years! I can't find any evidence of KHGC110's beimg delivered in anything like those quantities anywhere that a RHD car was marketed. Hong Kong doesn't appear to have got the KHGC110 in '73. South Africa apparently did get a K code C110 variant but I haven't found any solid data on whether it was a KHGC110 or something else. Even then it wasn't available until well into '73. England may well have got the KHGC110 although there seems to be a real shortage of hardtops there of any year. There are not many more RHD markets left and certainly not of a size that could absorb a reasonable quantity! KHLGC110's (LHD) are rather unlikely to be part of the same serial number sequence as they would have been built on a seperate assembly line for the most basic of reasons in that the logistics of the different componentry is a potential nightmare. If ANYONE has leads to factual and verifiable data it would be very well received by all.

Wasn't H an L24 engine and T a floor shift? I have a very similar page to that in a Service Bulletin 'Introduction of Datsun 160K, 180K and 240K GT (Model C110 Series)' Interesting the references to C10 models, something Nissan doesn't appear to have done for any other model changes apart from Datsun 120Y from Datsun 1200. About the same time frame too!

Oops, cut & paste error. Should be KHGC110 with no reference to Q or AQ.

As only one example, one of our cars is KHGC110 xxxxxx but could be either a KHGC110Q or a KHGC110AQ with a suffix UAR, URT, or even UART (all according to the June '74 export model manual) No reference to the suffix anywhere on the car. Provided in a form that can be readily seperated from the car or destroyed. See the above - or maybe I'm just too dense to detect that identification on the car that will allow me to use them.

On re-reading the code breakdown for both the domestic and export versions, a KC110 could theoretically exist. It would be a SWB hardtop with a G16, if such a beast exists!

So "each distinct prefix type" is a major variant? Even though eg the same body will be used for both a G16 and a G18 engined version of a sedan. Or maybe there were differences of such a magnitude that required a whole different assembly line. Same for a GT and a GT-X hardtop, or again were they so different a bodyshell? Third party information with no bibliography to link it to a source. A pointer to the 'ministry' you mentioned would be invaluable since such a solid source has proven to be rather elusive.

KC110 was a typo - should have read KPC110 Have a good look at that list - some are 'significant variants' but not all. If they ALL had their own serial number sequence then there were 301 KHGC110's built and delivered overseas before our 2/73 model? Interesting as there doesn't seem to be any sales data to support that.

From the engine manuals the G16 and G18 appear to be variants of the same base unit. Interestingly, Nissan Australia apparently believes that the KC110 was never actually put into production. Not very likely since the K code indicates hardtop pretty consistently throughout Nissan cars. I wouldn't think so. To have a different identifier for the public and not get confusion with internal systems and documentation the most common practice is to tack a NAME on the car for the public and stick with the engineering nonenclature internally.

I said 'virtually non-existant' and NOT that it was fact. If there is no hard evidence available in the future that the PREFIX is in some way falsified or altered from the day when it was placed there by the factory then whether you or anyone else like it or not, then the factory has LEGALLY identified the chassis as a KPGC110 which we all recognise and accept as the basis used to build the GT-R. That will require at least X-ray examination of the firewall panel.

Actually, I was aware of it somewhere back in about '74 as that was when I bought a copy of the manual (which I still have). But then I'm also not inclined towards snide sarcasm. I figured it would be better to see if Nissan Australia would provide a different slant but it seems they are reading from the same page too. A pity you couldn't use the correct terms (or their Anglicised versions) as the use of VIN actually implies there is more to the car ID and serial number than there really was. It also tells us quite clearly that the FACTORY didn't consider the suffix to be of any great significance after the fact of having built the car. Since I had yet to get my first drivers licence when I was drooling over the S54 in his showroom, I wouldn't be too quick to point fingers at who I thought he was referring to. Since I have had a copy since the 70's it's not fresh news. Art C

Have you had anything to do with mass production? I think not or you would realise that apart from idiotic companies like Ford UK AND Ford Australia back in the 50's (both set up by the same people), all mass production is similar in implementation. A 'line' (or more fully a 'production line') is set up for each major variant. Just where the division is set depends on what you are building but in the case of cars it's fairly obvious. A SWB 4 cylinder sedan is a significant variant to a LWB 6 cylinder hardtop and is equally a significant variant to a LWB 6 cylinder sedan. So, a seperate 'line' is set up for each of the variants. The result is just what your beaut little C10 sheet says. Each 'significant variant' has it's own serial number sequence. Note that that same sheet does not say that there is a seperate serial number sequence for cars bearing a different suffix. Modern production is moving away from this system because computerised management of the line, the component delivery, the robots assembling the unit is very tightly integrated. Without that tight integration a production line having to slot a significantly different engine into each chassis (as only one example item of many) becomes logistical nightmare. A very dumb scenario. The Japanese were NEVER dumb as their growth into one of the leading mass producing countries attests.

Correct me if I'm wrong: katashiki : a specific recipe, detailing every variable from trim level to color to seat configuration. in other words, what we call a 'build order' in Oz production

That source would like some more info from you as his understanding of the KPC110 model is that it was listed (ie planned) but never actually built.

Does that refer to introduction of the four door version of the C110 only?

Further to the last post (and I had to phone him when the thought occured to me). The short wheelbase sedans and wagons in the C110 series were built in a seperate facility.

Well, I finally got to revisit the gent who told me that cars were sequentially numbered. Bear in mind he is now close to 80 and was a mature individual and Datsun dealer when he visited the Nissan works on a number of occasions in the late 60's and onwards. He is also still a very active, intelligent and lucid individual. I let him read through a printout of this forum topic without making any comment to see what his opinion/reaction would be. Aside from going red, spluttering some unprintable expletives and very pointed remarks about smartasses who hadn't climbed out of short pants when these cars were being built, he was actually very interested. Anyway, after letting him calm down I got a better idea of the production methods used by Nissan. Yep, I got it wrong that a GC110 could follow a KHGC110! Nissan actually had three seperate 'lines' for C110 cars, one for K code hardtops, one for sedans and a completely seperate 'line' for GT-R's. Export market cars were actually built on the same 'line' as domestic cars in batch runs. So, all K codes received sequential numbers, all sedans a seperate sequential number series and the GT-R had its own series. As Nissan were yet to start recording on the Car Identification Plate even what transmission was fitted to a car, the above recollections are very likely to be correct. The main point is that a GT-R was effectively an individually handbuilt car. The likelyhood of a GT-R receiving such a high serial number as this exanple carries and that number being recorded on the Car Identification Plate or stamped into the firewall is virtually non-existant. Something he also pointed out as being a complete misrepresentation of the facts was the use of the term VIN or 'Vehicle Identification Number' in association with cars of that era. I have since been able to obtain the exact wording used by Nissan at the time (direct from Nissan) and I quote: "IDENTIFICATION NUMBERS The car and unit numbers are stamped and registered at the factory. The car and engine identification numbers are used on legal documents. These numbers are used for factory communication such as Technical Report, Warranty Claim, Service Journal and other information. CAR IDENTIFICATION PLATE The plate contains the car type, engine capacity, maximum horsepower, wheelbase and engine and car serial numbers." A true VIN actually identifies a lot more and is a whole different and messy ball of string. Nissan did also confirm that there was another P engine code used on C110 cars - for the G18 engine of all things! Further, they stated that engine would not have been used in a K code chassis anyway as there was never a short wheelbase K code. So there were TWO P code engines! A PC110 is a short wheelbase sedan with a G18, a KPGC110 a GT-R hardtop with an S20 and a PGC110 a GT-R sedan with an S20 (if they ever built any). And someone wants to imply that the factory only ever did sensible things?? As for sourcing an S20 to go into an S54 chassis, I don't even want to think about the idea of an S20 in an early Prince!! Ugggh. Art C.

Are you seriously trying to tell us that cars destined from Nissan works for overseas markets were registered in Japan first?? Pull the other one, it plays Jingle Bells! And that there is an EXPORT inspection that would detect that a car with paperwork matching the physical item wasn't the standard production car? Get real! The paperwork as provided by the MANUFACTURER is in and of itself documented evidence that it is 'standard'. As a PRIVATE CITIZEN and with used items, very different to a manufacturer of new product that brings in hard currency.

Ummmm - from some of the FUBAR's I hear about from relatives & friends working in two of the big 3 manufacturers here, computer lines stuff up even more spectacularly at times. When a computer build order goes wrong the line doesn't stop and you can't pull either the car or the parts off 'cause there's nowhere to put anything extraneous. Try a base model green sedan where the parts to be installed included a set of orange & black front bucket seats and a rear wagon seat of totally different colour! They tell me they just threw everything inside the car and let it go for the inspection team to sort out.

A lot harder than you realise if the result is not to show up, particularly when the surface is cleaned with an acid and then washed off. I've had some training & experience in this sort of forensic examination and believe me, it's a real bitch to completely conceal evidence of tampering. Even when the result at the site is extremely good there are often tiny signs of movement in the metal further away and modern image processing software on a real graphics workstation can reveal features you would be surprised by. As our KHGC is #302 and complianced in 2/73 then less than 4000 were built in almost 12 months including both GT and GL badging?

Not directly relevant to this but sort of related - if there are 'marque & model expert records' out there then maybe Alan can tell us where Nissan started the SERIAL number portion for the KHGC version? And maybe when?

Alan's contention that Nissan did use a unique number sequence for each type may make more sense than the other story I was given. There may be some very real discrepancies in the build of the vehicle compared to what is widely regarded as standard for a GT-R but there is no doubt that in law unless the prefix can be shown to be fraudulent then the bodyshell is what Nissan said it is - a GT-R Dunno about anyone else, I've never come across anything from Nissan to say that a KPGC110 could be anything other than a GT-R. Unless you can PROVE that the prefix is fraudulent OR that Nissan used the same prefix for something else then you are stuck with Nissan's own definition. btw, if anyone cares to use some decent image processing software then they will quickly identify the extra marks in the second digit of the serial number as impact damage from a sharp object. The impact point was slightly above and to the right of the middle of the 0 and traveled in an upwards and to the right path. The K and GC of the prefix are an exact match in style to those in the KHGC on one of our cars so I think it is fair to say that it is probably genuine (even if anomalous).

Not much doubt about the accuracy of the claim it is a KPGC110! I've been advised by a former Datsun/Nissan dealer that Nissan did not use a serial number sequence unique to each body variant (this policy varies from manufacturer to manufacturer). Instead each body was sequentially numbered regardless of the prefix so the body immediately before Ray's KPGC could have been something as basic as GC110-005369. The point is that #005370 is early & would indicate a true production date in the first months of 1973, possibly March or April, which supports Ray's statement that it is a 1973. Since the GT-R in KPGC110 form was available in Japan at least through the first half of 1973 I doubt very much that it was a 'leftover' body shell. Why it got to Port Moresby and with an L20 would be an interesting story that we are unlikely to ever know.

Unfortunately, not so in Oz!

Readily available through Autopro, Autobarn, Repco and even your friendly Nissan dealer. I believe he has the later ('82 on) distributor.

Seems like the dang thing is back again! http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330092830420&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:AU:1 That's the one north of Melbourne. Where's alfadog??? - this could make for a good cheap daily driver!!!